Canada Law School versus U.S. Prospects

[MyWifesBoyfriend]

I've been agonizing over this decision, and would invite some critical input from anyone on here that has insight. 

I am a dual U.S. and Canadian citizen. I have family in the states in and around the Boston area, and I am contemplating sending an application to Boston College Law (and maybe BU as a reach) since my stats are in and around the median there. 

For background, I am already admitted to my top choice (Osgoode), and a lot of my friends live in Toronto or plan to return to Toronto for work in the near future. On the other hand, gaining admittance to BC Law would mean I'd be closer to my family and maybe ~3 hours away from high school friends.

I am wondering if it's even worth applying to BC Law at this point, since I would be mid application cycle and it's sort of expensive (close to $500 CAD just to pay for all of the CAS stuff). 

Here are the pros  as I've weighed them so far:

 

Pro BC Law

-Closer to immediate family.

-Makes practicing in Boston big law easier (which I wouldn't be averse to), higher salary prospects and I love Boston.

-Most of my application materials could easily be re-tailored, so applying could be done in a weekend. 

-Not-too-bad NY placements either, commensurate with U of T. 

 

Pro Osgoode ("Oz")

-I like Toronto more as a city.

-Most of my undergraduate friends live in GTA or plan to return there. 

-I'm hedging my bets on a 'what-if'. It's entirely possible that BC Law may be an R or I may get $0.00 in financial aid/scholarships, meaning a full sticker price ($67,000 USD) law education. Essentially, I would have enjoyed more utility from barbecuing $500 than applying to this school.

-Going to Oz doesn't necessarily preclude me from U.S. work, it just makes the path more difficult. It seems like going from Oz to U.S. would be easier than BC Law to Toronto. 

-Having worked in legal adjacent fields and done more Canadian legal research, I feel more comfortable working in the Canadian legal context. 

 

I may be overthinking it, but any guidance would be welcomed. Thanks in advance! 

[scooter]

IMO, the most important consideration is where you want to live and work after law school.

Second would be overall cost - tough to evaluate until you get accepted to BC and know the financial aid amount.

Irrelevant: The $500 to apply to BC (not significant considering the overall cost of law school), the fact you feel more comfortable working in Canadian legal context (you will become comfortable with US law if you go to school in the US)

[MyWifesBoyfriend]

15 minutes ago, scooter said:

the most important consideration is where you want to live and work after law school.

 

Optimally, Canada. But in its current state, living here seems pretty difficult given the inflation and skyrocketing cost of living. 

[2easy]

Is UBC to NYC pretty easy? If your in the top of your class?

 

how can I view the placements?

Edited January 5 by 2easy

[CleanHands]

21 minutes ago, 2easy said:

Is UBC to NYC pretty easy?

No. Very few UBC students/grads are hired in NYC.

22 minutes ago, 2easy said:

If your in the top of your class?

That is a massive "if" and most career pathways are "pretty easy" if you are at the top of your class, but it's getting there that's not so easy (or at least "likely" - before @BlockedQuebecoischimes in 😛).

[chaboywb]

26 minutes ago, 2easy said:

Is UBC to NYC pretty easy? If your in the top of your class?

 

how can I view the placements?

OP is referring to Boston College Law School, not the University of British Columbia. Going from the University of British Columbia to U.S. big law is an extreme long shot.

Edited January 5 by chaboywb

[MyWifesBoyfriend]

26 minutes ago, 2easy said:

UBC to NYC pretty easy

BC* Law, not to be confused with UBC Law. 

Boston College Law is a tier 2 law school in Newton Mass that places well in Boston and mediocre in New York law markets. 

Edited January 5 by MyWifesBoyfriend

[Mal]

Paying sticker at any non-top14 US school is dumb. The risk of catastrophic failure is gigantic, that is, catastrophic failure is probable. 

Worrying about inflation is silly when you are gambling $300k (CAD) to go to a US school that places under a third of their students in jobs that can pay the debt. The cost of living and inflation is just as much an issue in the big liberal states. 

I would work at Starbucks before attending Boston College without a hefty scholarship. 

[JackoMcSnacko]

Entirely depends on where you want to work after graduation.

Oz puts you at a disadvantage to working in the US at the outset (compared to BC Law).

BC Law puts you at a disadvantage to working in Canada due to NCA requirements (compared to Oz) and the cost of tuition.

All other considerations are only relevant once you answer this question first.  If you're unsure, hold off on making the decision until you're sure.

[Kobe]

On 1/5/2024 at 3:28 PM, Mal said:

I would work at Starbucks before attending Boston College without a hefty scholarship. 

You shouldn't be hyperbolic when giving actual life advice. Your claim is ignorant at best. We may argue Boston College might not be worth it at sticker, but over half the class makes 190k+ in their first year. Even at the 25th percentile, we are talking about 80k USD (105k CAD) and that is pretty much the worst one might expect. This somehow being worse than working at Starbucks is just plain moronic. 

https://www.bc.edu/bc-web/schools/law/careers/employment-statistics.html

EDIT: I just want to be clear, I also would not go to BC at sticker but if my options are Barista at a Boston Starbucks or 300k debt and a BC JD, I of course choose the latter. 

Edited January 6 by Kobe

[MyWifesBoyfriend]

Thanks for the responses. Think I’ll be settling on Canada (Toronto) for now. 
 

I gave it some thought, and it makes the most sense to stay here where my professional network is. Subjective take, but I also find that the quality of life in Canadian cities is generally higher than US cities. However, US Walmarts tend to have greater product variety. 

Edited January 7 by MyWifesBoyfriend

[Mal]

17 hours ago, Kobe said:

You shouldn't be hyperbolic when giving actual life advice. Your claim is ignorant at best. We may argue Boston College might not be worth it at sticker, but over half the class makes 190k+ in their first year. Even at the 25th percentile, we are talking about 80k USD (105k CAD) and that is pretty much the worst one might expect. This somehow being worse than working at Starbucks is just plain moronic. 

https://www.bc.edu/bc-web/schools/law/careers/employment-statistics.html

EDIT: I just want to be clear, I also would not go to BC at sticker but if my options are Barista at a Boston Starbucks or 300k debt and a BC JD, I of course choose the latter. 

The school's stats should not be taken seriously. They are biased and misleading. Look elsewhere like: https://abovethelaw.com/schools/boston-college-law/ 

The 25th percentile is barely bar passage required, and that includes some pretty mediocre jobs. Once you factor in better statistics and the dismal burnout among the US national firms, you are looking at a probable outcome of being forced into a rice/beans lifestyle a la Dave Ramsey while working a high-stress job. 

Ps. You're a 1L. Maybe don't call someone who graduated law school over a decade before you started, ignorant. I am basing my comment on having worked at a high-end law firm where the lawyers bill 2k+/year. It is a grueling life, and with that level of debt, you don't even get a wealthy lifestyle for years. So even the ideal outcome isn't particularly good. So yeah, I'd rather be a barista; at least I could move to a low cost of living place and live a simple low-stress life. 

 

[helloall]

5 minutes ago, Mal said:

The school's stats should not be taken seriously. They are biased and misleading.

It's really not that bad. BC is in the same tier of feeder schools like ND and GWU.

[Kobe]

1 hour ago, Mal said:

The school's stats should not be taken seriously. They are biased and misleading. Look elsewhere like: https://abovethelaw.com/schools/boston-college-law/

You are backing up just how ignorant you are on this topic and just being plain lazy. These are the class of 2016 numbers, meaning extremely out of date and are just the required ABA disclosures, which are what I cited, plus some ATL surveys. I am citing the more recent and therefore relevant number. I have included a screenshot for lazy readers of this thread of your superior "source". 

One criticism of my data would have been to say the salary percentiles do not include those who are unemployed and part of the 5% of the class not employed in full-time long-term bar passage required jobs. 

1 hour ago, Mal said:

The 25th percentile is barely bar passage required, and that includes some pretty mediocre jobs. Once you factor in better statistics and the dismal burnout among the US national firms, you are looking at a probable outcome of being forced into a rice/beans lifestyle a la Dave Ramsey while working a high-stress job. 

This again is just not true on the bar passage front, you are citing the class of 2016 statistics. Again, I agree that I would not go to BC at sticker but if you think a barista in Boston is living better than the average JD from BC I just don't think we are having a serious conversation. 

1 hour ago, Mal said:

Ps. You're a 1L. Maybe don't call someone who graduated law school over a decade before you started, ignorant. I am basing my comment on having worked at a high-end law firm where the lawyers bill 2k+/year. It is a grueling life, and with that level of debt, you don't even get a wealthy lifestyle for years. So even the ideal outcome isn't particularly good. So yeah, I'd rather be a barista; at least I could move to a low cost of living place and live a simple low-stress life. 

That nice appeal to authority, this of course means you are making good points. Your comment makes no sense because a barista is doomed to poverty, at least one could survive in Boston as a lawyer, even with debt. They are not living a particularly wealthy lifestyle if they have debt, but having been a barista I can tell you that you have no clue what you are talking about if you think that is a simple low-stress life. 

Graduating from law school does not make you immune to ignorance, if anything it sounds like you have lost touch with what working a minimum wage service job full time means. We are talking about a life where you can never live alone, you can barely afford even the necessities vs a professional job where you will be firmly middle class in Boston albeit working a stressful job. 

Let's also be honest for a second and say that if someone burns out in Big Law in Boston after a couple of years it is not as if they will transition into something which can not service their debt while maintaining a middle-class lifestyle. 

I agree with the point that BC is not worth it at sticker, but because only like 5% of the class pays sticker it is a weird conversation to even be having and even weirder to compare to being a barista. In BC's case the average candidate receives a merit scholarship of $21k and this is renewable and not conditional beyond continuing to progress in the JD program. https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/schools/bc/costs

The point is you should prefer being a graduate of a T30 US law school to being a barista. The question was always where they wanted to live, if they wanted to live in Boston, a BC JD would have been better than being a barista in Boston. Especially if they want to be a lawyer. 

My advice would always be to think about where you want to live, get an idea of how competitive an applicant you are, apply to the schools in that market if you are competitive and see what scholarship you get. The advice you gave applies to a very tiny subset of people who would get into BC with no aid and is also hyperbolic. 

Also, I am not a 1L. Not that it matters. 

[123]

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Edited January 7 by realpseudonym

[Kobe]

1 minute ago, realpseudonym said:

I would rather work as a barista than take on $300,000 in law school debt and it’s not even close. I struggled with a much smaller debt than that for a while after law school. I don’t find the comparison overdramatic.  Credit issues can have really adverse impacts on quality of life. My mental health suffered. I wouldn’t wish it on many people. 

I was a barista in the past. It wasn’t that bad. 

I cannot even believe we have reached the level of discourse that a Barista is preferable to a JD from a T30 law school. Managing a debt load can be stressful, but living paycheque to paycheque and barely making rent is way worse. This is not a serious comparison. Try living on your own in Boston as a Barista and then tell me managing your law school debt is worse than this for your mental health. This is just extremely out of touch. 

The professional class cosplaying they are struggling worse than a minimum wage worker is absurd. 

I also think I address the rest of your post here:

1 hour ago, Kobe said:

I agree with the point that BC is not worth it at sticker, but because only like 5% of the class pays sticker it is a weird conversation to even be having and even weirder to compare to being a barista. In BC's case the average candidate receives a merit scholarship of $21k and this is renewable and not conditional beyond continuing to progress in the JD program. https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/schools/bc/costs

The point is you should prefer being a graduate of a T30 US law school to being a barista. The question was always where they wanted to live, if they wanted to live in Boston, a BC JD would have been better than being a barista in Boston. Especially if they want to be a lawyer. 

My advice would always be to think about where you want to live, get an idea of how competitive an applicant you are, apply to the schools in that market if you are competitive and see what scholarship you get. The advice you gave applies to a very tiny subset of people who would get into BC with no aid and is also hyperbolic. 

 

 

[Mal]

Insulting others comes very easily to you @Kobe. I would suggest you seek help. 

I would still caution anyone I cared about from taking on the debt necessary to attend Boston College without a hefty scholarship. The median earnings in the data you cite is $114k, which is what I would anticipate is the result of attendance. You earn that money through extremely hard work and the idea of financially struggling despite sacrificing for work should be terrifying. 

The attrition in the legal profession is extremely high, in Canada about 30% of people leave the profession entirely within 5 years (more than half have left private practice). I was sure I wanted to practice at a high level before law school. By the time I reached practice, I quickly realized that I simply couldn't sustain the long hours. I transitioned into policy, where I earned $70k in BC, which simply wouldn't have been possible if I was carrying debt. 

So, I would tell them to do anything else first, even a service job. At least if you work at Starbucks, you have the potential to figure things out and change.

 

[BlockedQuebecois]

I don't want to wade into the overarching debate, but I think two points should be made. 

First, I agree with @Kobe that the fetishization of service jobs in this thread is weird and distasteful. It shows a real disconnect with the lived experiences of lower-income workers in our communities, particularly in the midst of a cost-of-living crisis.

Second, it's silly to suggest that big law lawyers do not live a wealthy lifestyle, even if they have considerable amounts of educational debt. Those lawyers can and do live wealthy lifestyles. Once again, I think anyone taking the view that big law associates are not leading wealthy lifestyles must just have no idea how the average Canadian (or American) lives.