R at UCalgary with 3.71 B2 GPA and 164 (86th percentile) LSAT?

[Moosehead]

I got the hard rejection from Calgary on Friday with these stats. I'm a bit puzzled because if I read their website correctly, these stats should have put me right in the middle/median of their admitted class last year? At the same time, I've received an early A from Dal with these exact same numbers, and an invitation to their recruiting weekend in March. I'm from the GTA and did my undergrad at a GTA school. I don't have any connection to Calgary or family there, but I was really interested in their program (Calgary Curriculum) and would have seriously considered the school had they given me that option. Does anyone have any insights? Maybe one of these:

--the applicant pool at Calgary got a lot better this year, at the same time that the applicant pool at Dal dropped off? The schools always seemed to have similar numbers, but maybe that changed?

--possibly Calgary just didn't like what they read on my statements, especially a lack of connection to Calgary and AB? However, I don't have any connection to Halifax or Atlantic Canada at all, and that didn't seem to bother Dal at all. Maybe as a regional school this is more important for Calgary than at a national school like Dal?

--possibly Calgary assessed my application as likely to decline the offer if I got one from an Ontario school and decided they would reject me first (i.e. they "did unto me before I could do unto them"). I don't put a lot of weight on this, except for the fact that one of my parents is from Alberta, grew up there, did their undergrad there, and reassures me that Albertans are absolutely this thin-skinned and petty, especially when it comes to the GTA.

I didn't use their rather insulting "self-assessment tool" to figure out why I had been rejected as I don't think it would produce anything useful (I did not have a "non-competitive lsat", for example). 

Does anyone have any insights? It's just a bit mystifying to me that my application at U of T is still going and Calgary isn't.

[Renerik]

I think the most likely scenario is that your application just wasn't as good as you thought.

21 minutes ago, Moosehead said:

I didn't use their rather insulting "self-assessment tool" to figure out why I had been rejected as I don't think it would produce anything useful

All we know from your post is your LSAT and GPA - why would we have a better answer than what you could get from the self-assessment?

[Moosehead]

Could you please re-read my post again, this time carefully?  

I didn't suggest that I thought my application was strong, or "stronger than I think it is". What I said, if you read it again, was that I'm struggling to figure out how it wasn't good enough for Calgary when it was for Dalhousie? Literally the same application materials with the same numbers (both B2 schools from what I can tell) at schools that seem to have the same class profile and admissions process. I was a general applicant at both schools, so most of the admissions question is driven by hard numbers.

It doesn't have anything to do with what I think or how I assess my application, there is a hard factual difference in outcomes here that I can't seem to reconcile. That's all I'm trying to figure out. I did however, take your advice and review the assessment tool: it's still extremely insulting, and it's still not useful at all. It consists mostly of "are your gpa and lsat competitive, compared to previous year admissions stats?" for general applicants, which is what drove me here in the first place.

If you think my stats are not competitive to previous years at Calgary, please provide me with the hyper-link that shows that data.

[GoatDuck]

If this attitude in any way came across in your application materials, then you have your answer 🙂

[Moosehead]

That I believe in reading things carefully before I start typing?

[MyWifesBoyfriend]

3 minutes ago, Moosehead said:

Could you please re-read my post again, this time carefully?  

@Renerik read your post clearly. There's nothing there other than LSAT/B2 GPA and some assumptions regarding adcoms at Dal and UCalgary. You never submitted what your softs were. 3.72 is your B2 - what were your last 60 credits?  No one is omniscient.

Nonetheless, you have solid stats, so I wouldn't get too stressed. Dal is a great school with a national pull. Canadian law schools are competitive. While stats are important, personal statements and program compatibility can also be make-or-break factors. 

[Renerik]

33 minutes ago, Moosehead said:

If you think my stats are not competitive to previous years at Calgary, please provide me with the hyper-link that shows that data.

I'll do you one better - here's a screenshot of their self-assessment tool. GPA and LSAT aren't everything.
 

[Moosehead]

First, my apologies to everyone for the tone of my previous posts. Waiting on application results seems to be making me a bit crazy. I was typing faster than I was thinking and that shows in the posts, sorry about that.

I should also have noted that the B2 and the L2 are the same (last 60 credits). The part of the self-assessment is helpful as well, thank you for posting that. I did spend a fair bit of time in my statement of interest talking about my 2 years of work experience, and the ECs (foodshare and a mental health initiative). The section on special facts doesn't apply to me. I also spent a fair bit of time in the statement talking about what I liked about the Calgary Curriculum and how it would be best for me. The same type of statements were part of my Dal application, along with a resume.

Maybe there just isn't a clear answer here? To use Renerik's earlier comments with a little bit of a change, the application was strong enough for Dalhousie but not strong enough for Calgary, and that's the end of the story. I've been trying to figure out if these results mean anything for my other pending applications, but I don't think so? Every school is different and there's a bit of randomness on each application that's beyond our control?

 

[scooter]

The reason for different results from different schools is that they care about more than just your GPA and LSAT, and different schools have different criteria for assessing applications. 

The admissions process contains a fair amount of subjectivity. They're not applying some objective mathematical formula to admit or reject people, so it shouldn't be "mystifying" that two admissions committees could reach two different conclusions about your application.

Also, UofT doesn't send rejections until the end of the admissions cycle, so you shouldn't read anything into being rejected by Calgary but not UofT. 

 

[Alli306]

I applied to the same schools last year. Calgary really does prioritize the connection. Please remember that while Calgary might not have the reputation that you think Dalhousie does in a different context it is THE school to go to out west if you want to go into business law. They also have a pretty small class, if I remember correctly from admissions last year because I also went a bit crazy, the connection component to coming then staying in Calgary was a big thing in assessing applications. I wouldn't read into it. The also like mature students or students with work experience. Don't take it personally you will be fine at other schools. 

[Moosehead]

Thanks Alli306, this is helpful. I didn't realize the connection component was such a big thing with Calgary, but that helps to explain a lot (I don't have any connection to Calgary at all). Unless I missed it, this isn't something Calgary mentions on its website or in the application process? USask is pretty straightforward about that, I believe they ask in the application about your connection to Saskatchewan and what other schools you've applied to, so it was clear to me that local connection was an important factor for them. I wish Calgary had done the same thing, I probably would have re-evaluated whether or not I should have applied.

[stampedelaw]

I don't think the acceptance of one school means that you would be accepted to another school with the same stats. I was accepted by Osgoode as well as almost all other schools I applied to, but waitlisted by U of Calgary (LSAT 167, GPA 3.74). In addition, Calgary is my home and I have tons of work experience, including working at big law firms. I feel the acceptance of UCalgary Law is the most unpredictable among all Canadian law schools. And the applicants to UCalgary are actually more competitive than we imagined. 

Edited January 22 by stampedelaw

[Moosehead]

Thank you for this. It seems like you have a very strong connection to Calgary, so it's surprising to me to see that you were waitlisted. I guess it really is unpredictable at Calgary, but I'm also coming to appreciate that a result at one school, whatever it is, has no connection or predictive value on any other application. I also didn't appreciate Calgary's draw as a business law hub (I was interested in their public interest law clinic) and I'm sure they are drawing lots applicants with stats at least equal to or greater than mine.  

[jessf]

I poked around a bit in your post history, and you say you have a lower cGPA, and here you say you didn't use the special facts section.

No clue if it would have actually helped... but I think maybe you should've explained the lower first 2 years, and why the 2nd two years are more indicative of how you will perform in law school, in the special facts section. 

An unfair reading would say why should the school think you're more the 2nd half than the 1st if you don't explain it.

[Moosehead]

I understood that Calgary didn't/doesn't care about cGPA, it's strictly an L2 last 60 credits school, so what was there to explain? 

Also, if you look closely at what Renerik posted about special facts, those are related to diversity, equity and lived experience, none of which applied to my first two years of undergrad.

More importantly though, why would I explain something that Calgary specifically doesn't care about?

[jessf]

4 hours ago, Moosehead said:

I understood that Calgary didn't/doesn't care about cGPA, it's strictly an L2 last 60 credits school, so what was there to explain? 

Also, if you look closely at what Renerik posted about special facts, those are related to diversity, equity and lived experience, none of which applied to my first two years of undergrad.

More importantly though, why would I explain something that Calgary specifically doesn't care about?

Here is what it says: 
"GPA

GPA will be based on a minimum of the last 60 units (credits) of your undergraduate and/or graduate studies, up to December 31 of the year you submit your application. When assessing your application, the Admissions Committee will also consider your entire academic performance, in both undergraduate and graduate programs as applicable."

And then under evaluating why you may have gotten rejected it says: 
"Are there any unexplained gaps or patterns of poor performance in your academic record that you failed to explain in the Special Facts section of the application?"

Under the special facts section it says: 
"This is an optional space available to all applicants. You may choose to share relevant information with the Admissions Committee to help give context and perspective to your application."

I mean maybe you just did kind of blah your first 2 years for no reason, that happens. In that case there's nothing really to explain... you're right. But I would say that Calgary cares about it all just based on what I'm reading here. 

Anyways it was just my 2 cents... I certainly took the time to explain the areas where my academic performance was poor. Doesn't mean they actually cared, but maybe they did.

[Moosehead]

Sorry, I misunderstood what you said in the original post, thinking that I was supposed to do a special facts statement on my cGPA. I actually did address the first two years in my statement of interest as context for how the last two years turned out. Like you said, maybe they cared, maybe they didn't.

But maybe that demonstrates a problem with Calgary's admissions process? If you look at the post from Stampedelaw, I think they're right that Calgary's process seems to be the most random and unpredictable of all the Canadian law schools. Looking at the data and information they posted, it's a mystery to me as to how they got waitlisted at Calgary, some time after they had already been accepted at Osgoode? I can't figure out how they got to that outcome, but as he said, who knows, I'm sure it made sense to Calgary's admissions committee (somehow). But there's the problem: the result looks completely random and unpredictable to applicants because the process at Calgary isn't transparent enough. 

Examples of what I'm talking about: at Dal, it was perfectly clear that 60% of my app was on B2 GPA, 40% was on LSAT, and the statements and resume would be used for scholarship assessments only. That's it, that's all. Even more clear at UVic and Manitoba: 50/50 gpa and lsat, with charts showing whether or not I would be competitive and Manitoba even providing a formula to calculate the index score that would be used. Or USask making quite clear in their application that connection to Saskatchewan would be an important factor in application assessments.

Compare that to what you posted about Calgary and GPA: is this supposed to apply generally over the cGPA, or just the L2 credits, like they say on the front of their website? Or how they deal with multiple LSAT test results: it looks like they take the highest for "statistical grouping" but will average for some other assessment purpose? Then there is of course the local connection issue, which appears to be a factor but is not mentioned anywhere on the school's website. It seems a bit like wanting to go in multiple directions at the same time.

I understand that each method of assessment has positives and negatives and each school will choose what it wants to do, and that it's impossible to have full transparency for applicants. It's just that maybe Calgary should consider trying to make it's process a bit clearer?

[MyWifesBoyfriend]

15 minutes ago, Moosehead said:

But maybe that demonstrates a problem with Calgary's admissions process? If you look at the post from Stampedelaw, I think they're right that Calgary's process seems to be the most random and unpredictable of all the Canadian law schools. Looking at the data and information they posted, it's a mystery to me as to how they got waitlisted at Calgary, some time after they had already been accepted at Osgoode? I can't figure out how they got to that outcome, but as he said, who knows, I'm sure it made sense to Calgary's admissions committee (somehow). But there's the problem: the result looks completely random and unpredictable to applicants because the process at Calgary isn't transparent enough.

I think you should just follow up with U of C admissions if you're this distraught over the decision. No one here is going to be able to give you an accurate answer outside what is already listed on their admissions web page. 

[Moosehead]

I'm not after a re-assessment of my application, that's done and Calgary's decision is final. I'm just hoping my experience helps/assists current and future applicants to Calgary, that's all I was trying to achieve. Similar to the posts here from Alli306 and Stampedelaw. Those are a lot more than just repeating what's on the website. I think their experiences and possibly mine are valuable to help current and future applicants to Calgary.

[stampedelaw]

I wouldn't complain about UCalgary's admission process. After all, there are lots of factors for consideration. I think we should just accept the fact that the applicants to UCalgary law are really strong, maybe no less strong than those accepted by U of T and Osgoode, so the application is very competitive. 

Actually, with the same stats, I was not accepted by Dal. They just offered me an interview but I rejected because I already got offers from other schools at that time.

Edited January 23 by stampedelaw

[hellothere]

5 hours ago, Moosehead said:

Sorry, I misunderstood what you said in the original post, thinking that I was supposed to do a special facts statement on my cGPA. I actually did address the first two years in my statement of interest as context for how the last two years turned out. Like you said, maybe they cared, maybe they didn't.

But maybe that demonstrates a problem with Calgary's admissions process? If you look at the post from Stampedelaw, I think they're right that Calgary's process seems to be the most random and unpredictable of all the Canadian law schools. Looking at the data and information they posted, it's a mystery to me as to how they got waitlisted at Calgary, some time after they had already been accepted at Osgoode? I can't figure out how they got to that outcome, but as he said, who knows, I'm sure it made sense to Calgary's admissions committee (somehow). But there's the problem: the result looks completely random and unpredictable to applicants because the process at Calgary isn't transparent enough. 

Examples of what I'm talking about: at Dal, it was perfectly clear that 60% of my app was on B2 GPA, 40% was on LSAT, and the statements and resume would be used for scholarship assessments only. That's it, that's all. Even more clear at UVic and Manitoba: 50/50 gpa and lsat, with charts showing whether or not I would be competitive and Manitoba even providing a formula to calculate the index score that would be used. Or USask making quite clear in their application that connection to Saskatchewan would be an important factor in application assessments.

Compare that to what you posted about Calgary and GPA: is this supposed to apply generally over the cGPA, or just the L2 credits, like they say on the front of their website? Or how they deal with multiple LSAT test results: it looks like they take the highest for "statistical grouping" but will average for some other assessment purpose? Then there is of course the local connection issue, which appears to be a factor but is not mentioned anywhere on the school's website. It seems a bit like wanting to go in multiple directions at the same time.

I understand that each method of assessment has positives and negatives and each school will choose what it wants to do, and that it's impossible to have full transparency for applicants. It's just that maybe Calgary should consider trying to make it's process a bit clearer?

lmao chill out dude... Once you're in law school you'll realize how stupid your post sounds. It sounds like the sky is falling when you weren't accepted at X school when the admissions process is inherently subjective UNLESS the school only looks at grades (the hard numbers) and absolutely nothing else. 

[Moosehead]

And once you're in law school, it looks like you might need someone to explain to you that calling people stupid is a quick way out of law school

[hellothere]

56 minutes ago, Moosehead said:

And once you're in law school, it looks like you might need someone to explain to you that calling people stupid is a quick way out of law school

I'm doing okay.

However, I'd also like to address this point:

"Examples of what I'm talking about: at Dal, it was perfectly clear that 60% of my app was on B2 GPA, 40% was on LSAT, and the statements and resume would be used for scholarship assessments only. That's it, that's all."

I'm pretty sure Dal assesses applications holistically, so I'm not sure where you got that "perfectly clear" 60-40% figure from:

In assessing applications, the Admissions Committee reviews each application holistically by taking into consideration all application materials submitted, including the applicant’s academic record, LSAT score, online application (including personal statement), references and non-academic experience. Interviews of applicants with significant non-academic experience may be held at the discretion of the Committee. Interviews typically take place in May or June.

Source: https://www.dal.ca/faculty/law/admissions/jd-admissions/admissions-categories-program-options.html 

This is for the benefit of other applicants who are anxiously waiting for results. 

Edited January 23 by hellothere

[Rashabon]

Buddy I sure hope you don't think that's how it works because hoo boy.

[MyWifesBoyfriend]

23 minutes ago, hellothere said:

I'm not sure where you got that "perfectly clear" 60-40% figure from:

They're getting it from the "GPA and LSAT Averages" side banner at: https://www.dal.ca/faculty/law/admissions/jd-admissions/how-to-apply.html

Regardless, I'm not sure how helpful this thread is for "future applicants" since all it has done is invite conjecture or assumptions regarding U of Calgary's admissions process. If anything, I feel like this would have dissuaded me from applying to U of C with competitive stats (if I was still in the application process). It's also unclear how the school lacks transparency. Aside from their clearly stated policies, it's one of the few schools that has an active reddit account that takes DMs and discusses admissions policies with students. The thread is premised on the erroneous assumption that an A at Dal attracts an A at Calgary, which is where OP loses me. 

More realistically, I think that applicant pools vary by strength each year, and OP's profile didn't make the cut-off during a potentially strong U of C law cycle. It doesn't get deeper than that. 

Edited January 23 by MyWifesBoyfriend