UofT vs McGill

[bodywithoutorgans]

It seems that both of these schools are often mentioned in discussions surrounding the "best school in Canada" (though I realize that the designation is often meaningless, for multiple reasons). However, having been accepted into both, I was wondering which school people would recommend if my eventual goal is Big Law (not necessarily in Toronto either;I would be open to moving abroad, the States and Europe come to mind, for example).  I've lurked around and I get the sense that both schools are on equal footing for Big Law, though of course UofT has the upper hand in Bay Street placements, for obvious reasons. Currently, I'm leaning towards McGill simply because I love Montreal and because McGill's curriculum appears to involve far more "theory" (make of that what you will), which is something that appeals to me greatly. I just want to be reassured, I guess, that career opportunities don't vary that wildly between the two for corporate/big law. Thanks!

Edited January 30 by bodywithoutorgans

[Dinsdale]

Tough one, overall, without knowing your precise goals.  U of T by a mile if your goal is Bay Street, at least to start your career.  But if it is "Europe", than probably McGill as you will have some exposure to Civil Law, etc.  For USA, roughly even? 

[scooter]

If you want to go to McGill, then go to McGill. They are both great schools so there isn't really a "wrong" choice. There is something to be said for just picking the school you'd be most excited to attend. 

Way more UofT students get Bay Street jobs, but I imagine that also has a lot to do with how many UofT vs McGill students apply to those jobs in the first place. 

[bodywithoutorgans]

6 minutes ago, scooter said:

If you want to go to McGill, then go to McGill. They are both great schools so there isn't really a "wrong" choice. There is something to be said for just picking the school you'd be most excited to attend. 

Way more UofT students get Bay Street jobs, but I imagine that also has a lot to do with how many UofT vs McGill students apply to those jobs in the first place. 

 

 

22 minutes ago, Dinsdale said:

Tough one, overall, without knowing your precise goals.  U of T by a mile if your goal is Bay Street, at least to start your career.  But if it is "Europe", than probably McGill as you will have some exposure to Civil Law, etc.  For USA, roughly even? 

Thanks for your responses. I would, of course, not mind working on Bay Street as big/corporate law is the end goal--- but if all other factors are "equal", and with McGill having an edge in Europe, then I think I'll be accepting McGill. I would be getting very, very generous financial assistance from UofT as my family is low-income, however, having lived here for the past 4 years, I'm eager to move away!

[GoatDuck]

I’d confirm the “having an edge in Europe” part if that’s important to you. The above posters didn’t indicate that it does in a substantial way, only that exposure to civil law is a potential advantage over UofT.  

[bodywithoutorgans]

Just now, GoatDuck said:

I’d confirm the “having an edge in Europe” part if that’s important to you. The above posters didn’t indicate that it does in a substantial way, only that exposure to civil law is a potential advantage over UofT.  

I did not know that it conferred a huge advantage. Makes my decision a lot easier as big/corp law in Europe is my primary objective. Thanks for your help.

[Renerik]

8 minutes ago, bodywithoutorgans said:

I did not know that it conferred a huge advantage. Makes my decision a lot easier as big/corp law in Europe is my primary objective

A small but significant number of McGill grads end up in France as Quebec trained lawyers have an accelerated pathway to receiving licensing in France - https://avocatshorsquebec.org/en/themes/mobility/. McGill grads also send a significant amount to NY, around the same amount as UofT https://www.mcgill.ca/business-law/article/historical-cycle-canadian-legal-emigration-new-york.

Outside of France, you're going to face similar issues getting licensed in a foreign jurisdiction whether you go to UofT or McGill.

[GoatDuck]

12 minutes ago, bodywithoutorgans said:

I did not know that it conferred a huge advantage. Makes my decision a lot easier as big/corp law in Europe is my primary objective. Thanks for your help.

Sorry that’s not what I meant. I meant that you should confirm whether McGill confers such advantage or not. E.g. check out Renerik’s links.

[Renerik]

Tangentially related, for those of you who want to see how many alumni from each school make their way to NY, here's the raw data set published by the NY state: https://data.ny.gov/Transparency/attorney-lookup-new-york/2ea2-qc7r/about_data

A bored applicant with basic excel skills could sort the data.

[WiseGhost]

UofT places significantly more students in the NY recruit than McGill. International work is far from a guarantee for students at McGill so I would hesitate making this a determining factor in your decision. McGill is a fun school to attend though, as someone who also likes theory there is no shortage. 

 

[scooter]

OP wants to choose McGill and is looking for confirmation that it wouldn't somehow be a bad choice. McGill and UofT are two of the strongest and most well-known universities in the country. I don't think you are closing any doors by choosing McGill.

If we're just comparing McGill and UofT, the number of students placed in a given market is a terrible metric in my opinion. UofT may place more students in Toronto or New York, but we have no idea how many students from McGill are even applying to those jobs. For example, if you just compared schools using Bay Street placement rates, you would reach the conclusion that McGill, Windsor and TMU are interchangeable.

[WiseGhost]

Ok, I'll reframe because it isn't really about placement rates and you are right that many students self select out of recruitment (not everyone wants to work on Bay Street or NY). At McGill it is generally accepted that most students need to be in the top 10% or close to that to have a good chance of landing in New York. At UofT, students in the top 20% have a good shot at a New York job if they want it. That's a significant difference. 

There are other reasons to go to McGill over UofT, but the schools aren't equal for US recruitment. 

[multilingualcat]

11 minutes ago, WiseGhost said:

Ok, I'll reframe because it isn't really about placement rates and you are right that many students self select out of recruitment (not everyone wants to work on Bay Street or NY). At McGill it is generally accepted that most students need to be in the top 10% or close to that to have a good chance of landing in New York. At UofT, students in the top 20% have a good shot at a New York job if they want it. That's a significant difference. 

There are other reasons to go to McGill over UofT, but the schools aren't equal for US recruitment. 

In my cohort at McGill, I know people in top 20-30% who got interviews with NY firms. Based on what my peers have told me, you don't need to be on the Dean's List to get interviews/offers. It seems that if you really want an offer, you need to hustle hard though. My friends who got NY offers did a lot of networking! 

Edited January 30 by multilingualcat

[Dinsdale]

Yes, the application rate from U of T to Bay Street firms is much, much higher than that from McGill.  That should surprise no one.  Purely anecdotal, but I encountered many more applicants from McGill who had done a placement or internship in Europe or in some other international organization than I did from U of T.  Also, how is your French?  Fluency or at least a working knowledge will be a huge advantage at McGill (not to mention for future European work) whereas it is almost of no importance at U of T / on Bay Street.  At the end of the day, I agree with the above: both great schools, don't overthink it, choose the one that excites you, which means the city as well as the school.

[bodywithoutorgans]

23 minutes ago, WiseGhost said:

Ok, I'll reframe because it isn't really about placement rates and you are right that many students self select out of recruitment (not everyone wants to work on Bay Street or NY). At McGill it is generally accepted that most students need to be in the top 10% or close to that to have a good chance of landing in New York. At UofT, students in the top 20% have a good shot at a New York job if they want it. That's a significant difference. 

There are other reasons to go to McGill over UofT, but the schools aren't equal for US recruitment. 

So, it's interesting since I've heard very different things. I've heard that: UofT and McGill are interchangeable in terms of landing students into NY, I've heard UofT has a slight edge, and I've also heard UofT has a significant edge. Since I have no way of assessing the validity of these statements I would just like to know, in a very general sense, if McGill will give me good opportunities for corp/big law. I just wanted reassurance in this regard since I really want to choose McGill!

1 hour ago, scooter said:

OP wants to choose McGill and is looking for confirmation that it wouldn't somehow be a bad choice. McGill and UofT are two of the strongest and most well-known universities in the country. I don't think you are closing any doors by choosing McGill.

If we're just comparing McGill and UofT, the number of students placed in a given market is a terrible metric in my opinion. UofT may place more students in Toronto or New York, but we have no idea how many students from McGill are even applying to those jobs. For example, if you just compared schools using Bay Street placement rates, you would reach the conclusion that McGill, Windsor and TMU are interchangeable.

Yes, exactly! I do want to go to McGill and I know that it is equally as well-regarded as UofT. I just wanted some reassurance to soothe the anxiety. 

 

2 hours ago, Renerik said:

A small but significant number of McGill grads end up in France as Quebec trained lawyers have an accelerated pathway to receiving licensing in France - https://avocatshorsquebec.org/en/themes/mobility/. McGill grads also send a significant amount to NY, around the same amount as UofT https://www.mcgill.ca/business-law/article/historical-cycle-canadian-legal-emigration-new-york.

Outside of France, you're going to face similar issues getting licensed in a foreign jurisdiction whether you go to UofT or McGill.

Thanks for the info, will check it out.

 

2 hours ago, GoatDuck said:

Sorry that’s not what I meant. I meant that you should confirm whether McGill confers such advantage or not. E.g. check out Renerik’s links.

Ah ok, my bad. Thanks for clarifying.

[WiseGhost]

@bodywithoutorgans

In that case, go to McGill! It's a great school and it places very well in big law. 

[Ben]

14 hours ago, bodywithoutorgans said:

I'm leaning towards McGill simply because I love Montreal and because McGill's curriculum appears to involve far more "theory" (make of that what you will)

What do you mean by "theory"? I think it's basically inarguable that U of T is the best place to be in Canada for legal philosophy.

[Dinsdale]

1 hour ago, bodywithoutorgans said:

Yes, exactly! I do want to go to McGill

There's your answer.  If you want to go to McGill, then go to McGill, or you will always regret it.  I assume you speak some French.

I was just saying that from a purely Bay St. perspective, U of T is the obvious choice.  Amongst other reasons, Bay St. firms will do up to 80 OCIs at U of T, as opposed to at most 40 and generally only 20 at McGill.

[CleanHands]

You can't go wrong either way and you want to go to the significantly less expensive school, so this is a no-brainer.

EDIT - Just saw the point about financial assistance, so...my post is kind of pointless and mods can delete this. Mea culpa.

Edited January 30 by CleanHands

[bodywithoutorgans]

29 minutes ago, Ben said:

What do you mean by "theory"? I think it's basically inarguable that U of T is the best place to be in Canada for legal philosophy.

Sorry, should have clarified. I meant that transsytemia is very appealing to me, as are some of the research interests of the faculty at McGill specifically. Tho that course on Hegel at UofT is very appealing as well lol. 

Thanks everyone for the responses, it was all very helpful. I think McGill is the clear choice for me

[enpassant]

On 1/30/2024 at 11:21 AM, Renerik said:

A small but significant number of McGill grads end up in France as Quebec trained lawyers have an accelerated pathway to receiving licensing in France - https://avocatshorsquebec.org/en/themes/mobility/. McGill grads also send a significant amount to NY, around the same amount as UofT https://www.mcgill.ca/business-law/article/historical-cycle-canadian-legal-emigration-new-york.

Outside of France, you're going to face similar issues getting licensed in a foreign jurisdiction whether you go to UofT or McGill.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but is that graph not showing that UofT sends around twice as many students to NY than McGill? Also the impression that I got from article was that McGill used to be the school that sends the most students to NY, though that does not seem to be the case anymore.

[Chef Justice]

Honestly, I'm actually a bit shocked that McGill was even sending more than UofT at one point to New York if I'm not mistaken by that graph. I always knew McGill was second, but didn't know they ever sent more than UofT, especially since McGill has a smaller class size.

[CleanHands]

12 minutes ago, Chef Justice said:

Honestly, I'm actually a bit shocked that McGill was even sending more than UofT at one point to New York if I'm not mistaken by that graph. I always knew McGill was second, but didn't know they ever sent more than UofT, especially since McGill has a smaller class size.

This is not specific to law, but McGill is disproportionately well regarded in the United States relative to other comparably competitive Canadian universities simply because it's called "McGill" and not "University of X." Weird cultural thing about "state schools" there.

[MyWifesBoyfriend]

2 hours ago, CleanHands said:

This is not specific to law, but McGill is disproportionately well regarded in the United States relative to other comparably competitive Canadian universities simply because it's called "McGill" and not "University of X." Weird cultural thing about "state schools" there.

Can verify this. I grew up in the states, and McGill is almost a household name. It is especially well regarded along the Northeastern coast.  In comparison, U of T and UBC are relatively off the radar.

Edited March 1 by MyWifesBoyfriend