Employment Insurance after articling

[LawStudent604]

Is it common for articling students to apply for Employment Insurance during the summer between completing their articling period and beginning their work as associates? Are there any stipulations or qualifications for doing so?

[BlockedQuebecois]

If you’ve accepted a hire back offer, it seems unlikely you would satisfy the requirements that you are actively looking for work and are able to start immediately if offered a position. 

[QueensDenning]

It’s common and I plan to do it whether hired back or not. I’ve spoken to the first year associates at my firm and they all took EI over the summer. 
 

One thing to note is that you cannot take it during the period you’re out of the country traveling, if that is something you plan on doing. It’s not that you can’t get EI if you travel, but it needs to be paused for the time you are out of the country. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

Publicly stating you intend to commit EI fraud when you're about to enter a regulated profession is certainly a decision. 

[QueensDenning]

24 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Publicly stating you intend to commit EI fraud when you're about to enter a regulated profession is certainly a decision. 

I haven’t looked into the requirements and if it amounts to EI fraud then I guess I won’t be taking it. 
 

Anecdotally, it’s certainly a common practice. So I guess lots of our new Bay Street lawyers are committing EI fraud and speaking about it openly in the workplace.

[BlockedQuebecois]

Must be a different Bay Street from the one I am familiar with 🙂

[LawStudent604]

Anecdotally, I think this is more common than what BQ may be familiar with. The reason I asked is because I’ve heard (from numerous people) of Bay Street lawyers taking EI during their summer. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

2 minutes ago, LawStudent604 said:

Anecdotally, I think this is more common than what BQ may be familiar with. The reason I asked is because I’ve heard (from numerous people) of Bay Street lawyers taking EI during their summer. 

I'm sure some lawyers – even some Bay Street lawyers – commit EI fraud. Although I certainly don't know anyone on Bay Street who did so openly.

The fact that others have done it and gotten away with it doesn't make it advisable. You are entering a profession where your single most valuable asset (and in many ways, your only asset) is your reputation. Putting your reputation on the line in order to defraud the government out of a few thousand dollars months before you start a job that will pay you hundreds of thousands of dollars for the rest of your career is pretty obviously a poor decision, even if all of your friends are doing it. 

None of that is to say that you shouldn't claim EI if you are eligible. If you are sincerely looking for work and ready and willing to start immediately if offered a position (as would be the case for almost everyone not hired back), you obviously should claim EI. 

[Mal]

I was initially skeptical of an EI claim in the circumstances, but EI fraud is overstating matters. Seasonal workers fairly commonly receive EI. You can claim EI if you have an interruption through work that is not voluntary as long as you are willing/able to work and actively applying for jobs. It not being practicable to get a job for the period doesn't necessarily disentitle an individual. 

The real problem is that most lawyers in the circumstances simply won't look for a job.

[BlockedQuebecois]

18 minutes ago, Mal said:

I was initially skeptical of an EI claim in the circumstances, but EI fraud is overstating matters. Seasonal workers fairly commonly receive EI. You can claim EI if you have an interruption through work that is not voluntary as long as you are willing/able to work and actively applying for jobs. It not being practicable to get a job for the period doesn't necessarily disentitle an individual. 

The real problem is that most lawyers in the circumstances simply won't look for a job.

Is your position seriously that it’s not EI fraud to claim EI in circumstances where you are not actively looking for work and are not able to start immediately if offered a position?

Even though every EI filing includes a certification that you are actively looking for work and are able to start immediately if offered a position? 

Edited March 18 by BlockedQuebecois
Being nicer :)

[CleanHands]

As an aside, I find it funny that even lawyers are disagreeing about who qualifies for EI, when this is a system we expect average Joes to navigate.

[Dinsdale]

1 hour ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Is your position seriously that it’s not EI fraud to claim EI in circumstances where you are not actively looking for work and are not able to start immediately if offered a position?

I believe he said the opposite, actually. 

Also, it is true that seasonal workers can be eligible for EI in certain circumstances, so maybe ("maybe") that analogizes to articling students who have been hired back.  Doesn't really sit well with me, though.

[BlockedQuebecois]

4 minutes ago, Dinsdale said:

I believe he said the opposite, actually. 

Also, it is true that seasonal workers can be eligible for EI in certain circumstances, so maybe ("maybe") that analogizes to articling students who have been hired back.  Doesn't really sit well with me, though.

That’s why I’m clarifying.

If @Mal agrees that applying for EI whilst not actively looking for work is EI fraud, it’s not clear to me why he said “EI fraud is overstating matters”. Unless he just didn’t understand the preceding conversation. 

This really isn’t a complex issue. If you are an articling student and your contract expires, you’re eligible for EI so long as you meet the usual requirements. That includes the requirement that you are actively looking for work and are ready to start immediately if you are offered a position.

If you apply for EI in circumstances where you are not actively looking for work – say, because you have accepted a hire back offer – you are committing EI fraud. 

Anyone suggesting otherwise is wrong, and their posts to that effect are reckless. The seasonal worker point is a red herring – just because seasonal workers routinely commit EI fraud by not looking for work during the offseason despite the requirement to do so does not mean that lawyers should do so as well. 

[QueensDenning]

I’ll be actively looking for work and willing to accept it - so long as the work has a higher salary than my return offer. 

Does that count? 😊

[BlockedQuebecois]

[Edit: On second thought, I’m not going to keep explaining how it’s fraud to claim EI when you’re not eligible. You would hope that privileged folks like posters here would have a bit of shame in falsely making a claim for benefits designed to help vulnerable people in our society, but that is apparently asking too much from certain people.]  

Edited March 19 by BlockedQuebecois

[FellowTraveler]

29 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

I’ll be actively looking for work and willing to accept it - so long as the work has a higher salary than my return offer. 

Does that count? 😊

Even for this profession, this is a nauseating level of entitlement. I look forward to reading about you being disbarred for dipping into the trust account.

[canuckfanatic]

Quote

When someone intentionally provides false or misleading information about a claim,  it is considered to be fraud.

...

If you knowingly withhold information or misrepresent the facts to make a false claim, you are committing fraud. In this case, you may be penalized or prosecuted. In addition, your employer or any third party who helps you commit fraud may also be penalized or prosecuted when we detect the fraudulent activity.

...

Depending on the circumstances, if you knowingly make false or misleading statements, you will likely be fined. The amount of the fine varies, but you may have to pay up to 150% of any overpayment you received, or three times your benefit rate for every false statement, whichever amount is lower. The value of the overpayment is the total of any benefits that you were actually paid plus a percentage of the value of any benefits that you could have been paid because of the fraud.

- Service Canada

[QueensDenning]

1 hour ago, FellowTraveler said:

Even for this profession, this is a nauseating level of entitlement. I look forward to reading about you being disbarred for dipping into the trust account.

Bit of a stretch. And I’m not sure what entitlement has to do with it. When I first posted I didn’t think there was anything wrong with going on EI as an articling student before starting as an associate. 
 

get off your high horse. 

Edited March 19 by QueensDenning

[Dinsdale]

Serious question: if I am an articling student who has been hired back, with a start date of September 1, can I legitimately collect EI if I actively seek work that begins in May or thereabouts and concludes on August 31? A summer job, as it were?  If not, how is that different from seasonal workers who (properly) collect EI?  I'm not familiar with the nuances of the rules.

Edited March 19 by Dinsdale

[LMP]

42 minutes ago, Dinsdale said:

Serious question: if I am an articling student who has been hired back, with a start date of September 1, can I legitimately collect EI if I actively seek work that begins in May or thereabouts and concludes on August 31? A summer job, as it were?  If not, how is that different from seasonal workers who (properly) collect EI?  I'm not familiar with the nuances of the rules.

You could. Technically you can honestly fill out the bi-weekly check-in and be eligible under the conditions you've mentioned. 

But the skepticism seems to be that students would actually do that. And I don't disagree. I don't think very many people would be genuinely looking for employment and be willing to accept it while waiting to start full-time. 

Having said that, with 8-month articling being a thing now it may become more common to take this route and genuinely be seeking employment. 

[BHC1]

You are absolutely never going to get caught if you do this.

But as members and future members of a profession that is supposed to “maintain and advance the cause of justice and the rule of law”, the attitude some of you have towards this is all pretty gauche. 

[Dinsdale]

Don't Bay Street firms pay returning articling students during this period anyway?  They used to, back when there was a "Bar Admission course".  I guess that is a thing of the past.

[QueensDenning]

2 hours ago, Dinsdale said:

Don't Bay Street firms pay returning articling students during this period anyway?  They used to, back when there was a "Bar Admission course".  I guess that is a thing of the past.

No we don’t get paid anything. But we can’t complain about that because partners on this forum will bitch about our privilege and entitlement. 

We also can’t afford housing. But god forbid we tap into the EI we’ve paid into. 

Edited March 19 by QueensDenning

[FellowTraveler]

14 hours ago, QueensDenning said:

I’m not sure what entitlement has to do with it.

Are you... sure about that?

From your posts I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you're in your 20s articling on Bay Street. Which means that right now you're earning a 90th percentile salary for your age bracket (assuming 90k+), and in a few months you're going to be earning a 90th percentile salary for any Canadian (130k), which is only going to increase stratospherically from there.

So, "I can't afford housing" is something even the world's smallest violin is too much for.

"I pay for EI": yeah, you also pay taxes for a lot of things you aren't eligible for. Does that entitle you to commit fraud for those things too?

And please, don't hide behind "I didn't know about this when I first posted." Fine, we can all grant you that. But then you've had multiple people tell you that you'd be committing fraud and your response has been:

1. To laugh about doing it anyway.

2. To pout about the unfair reactions to your public admission of wanting to commit fraud because all the cool kids are doing it.

But I'll admit you're right about one thing: my original message was a bit of a stretch. You're almost certainly not going to get caught for doing it, so I was just engaging in some wishful thinking. So, enjoy your well-deserved vacation!

[BlockedQuebecois]

"We can't afford housing"