Do I have a chance for New York 2L Summer Position?

[krokatron]

• I go to Osgoode
• 6.64/9 projected 1L cGPA (worst case scenario - I haven't completed my 1L Winter Exams yet but this is the lowest it could be. The highest (unlikely) would be 7/9). 
• 12 Months of corporate work experience between the 5 major banks (3 summers worth of internships). Not sure how this helps or hurts me but it will be on my resume. 
• Member of 2 societies centered around corporate/business law. Elected VP of Communications for both - actually did stuff in these positions. 
• Part of Osgoode Venture Capital Clinic 

After a few weeks of networking and cold emailing, I have spoken to Osgoode Grads who have gained positions in 8 different BigLaw New York firms - all have expressed support at personally sending in my resume to HR. But they all warned me that this by no means guaranteed me a position. 

Do I have a shot?

Edited April 6 by krokatron
clarification

[omigone]

It's hard to predict - but your chances aren't bad. I got interviews at several NYC firms with similar grades to you. However, that was during a pretty hot market. While the state of the US legal market isn't dire right now, it could be a bit more difficult to score an interview/position than it was a few years ago.

[krokatron]

34 minutes ago, omigone said:

It's hard to predict - but your chances aren't bad. I got interviews at several NYC firms with similar grades to you. However, that was during a pretty hot market. While the state of the US legal market isn't dire right now, it could be a bit more difficult to score an interview/position than it was a few years ago.

Did you end up getting the position? 

Also - are grades generally an issue once you manage to snag an interview? I always assumed that grades were just used as an initial screener, but that once you got an interview, the playing field "evened out" and how you sell yourself in the interview becomes the defining factor. Am I wrong in this belief? 

[Turtles]

I warn you, don't let concerns about the market cooling get to you. The experience I've seen first hand has been that top NYC firms continue to be very willing to consider UofT and Osgoode students. Don't self-select out based on innuendo about the market cooling only to find others, even those with worse grades or less background, finding success. The market is still very much there, comparing it to earlier years yields little actionable advice.

The four big things you can control at this point are your grades this semester, the networking you do with NYC lawyers, how many NYC jobs you apply for, and how early you apply. It sounds like you have the first two already on your radar, so keep in mind the latter two as well. Apply broadly. The benefit of the NYC market is few firms require (or accept) cover letters, so nothing holds you back from applying to a large number. Obviously still write CLs for the firms that take them, and network with as many as you can too, but prioritize the top firms, and still apply to the ones you couldn't network with too. The NYC summer associate market has also shifted earlier and earlier, with a greater proportion of hiring being done before the US OCI season. I would recommend applying as early as feasible (firms differ in when they open direct applications), likely aiming to apply to every firm on your list the same week your grades get released (last week of May). Osgoode does a resume drop in July for 3-5 top firms, but it is relatively late in the cycle, so I would suggest not waiting until that.     

Edited April 6 by Turtles

[candles]

Firstly, if you want to work in New York, of course you should apply, you never know unless you try. I'll also say focus on your exams over the next couple weeks, I'm not sure how you've calculated your "projected" GPA, but you can only really know your chances once you have your final grades back. You haven't received final grades for 6 of 9 1L classes and you never know what you're going to get with the curve. 

However, assuming that you have somehow correctly predicted your GPA, that puts you on the lower end of a B+ average, which puts you at only roughly top 40%-ish of the class. I think that this is challenging to overcome, not impossible, but challenging. Last year, a New York firm, put in the job description on MyCareer that "top 10% of the class is required." Also to answer your above question, my understanding is that grades just don't disappear from consideration, they will always remain a factor. You are right in saying that your interview style and how well you connect with your interviewers is likely the most important factor, but your grades still factor into decision-making.

Your corporate experience I would think is an asset. Your networking so far will be an asset to you. Your club experience and your future clinic I think are not going to sway your application one way or another. My understanding is the extra-curriculars that carry weight for New York firms are mooting and journal experience. 

So ultimately, apply and see what happens, don't self-select out. But I would temper expectations. 

[theycancallyouhoju]

On 4/7/2024 at 1:59 AM, krokatron said:

Did you end up getting the position? 

Also - are grades generally an issue once you manage to snag an interview? I always assumed that grades were just used as an initial screener, but that once you got an interview, the playing field "evened out" and how you sell yourself in the interview becomes the defining factor. Am I wrong in this belief? 

Yes. Most NY firms expect pretty close to top grades from Canadian students. 

[Chemistry124]

Your grades absolutely do matter even after the initial screener process (i.e. you've received a callback invite). For some candidates, the callback is a mere formality because of how strong the rest of their profile (mostly grades, a bit of resume). For others, they still need to impress during the callback because their profile otherwise may be comparatively weaker. They may have gotten that callback solely due to a strong performance during their screener interview.

Quote

The market is still very much there, comparing it to earlier years yields little actionable advice.

I'm going to push back against what @Turtles said here. The incoming summer classes (starting in May/June) as well as the target number of summers to be hired this year are significantly lower than the class sizes during pandemic years (data from friends and my alma mater). Also, the direct hiring (3L) market has normalized. Going south of the border without first summering in the US but pre-articling (so hired during 3L) is definitely not a path to bank on anymore. Quite frankly, many US firms during the pandemic hired candidates (both Canadians and Americans) who otherwise during normal times wouldn't get past screeners, let alone receive callbacks invites/offers.

You shouldn't discount yourself from applying. You should continue to network with Canadian and other attorneys in NYC, submit application during formal resume drops + direct application, etc. Having said that, you really need to get your grades up if you still can. Top 40% or third may nab you a few looks from Toronto, but I would be surprised if you get any bites with your current profile. Also, it seems like you went to law school right after undergrad (K-JD) since all of your previous work experience were summer internships. American firms will discount that for not being fulltime, post-college work experience. This would be a very, very different story if you were an ex-investment banker or consultant and was applying for transactional practices.

There is the alternative path of working at a reputable Canadian firm in a transactional practice and then lateralling down south. That's been covered thoroughly in this forum already.

Edited April 15 by Chemistry124

[stampedelaw]

6 hours ago, Chemistry124 said:

Your grades absolutely do matter even after the initial screener process (i.e. you've received a callback invite). For some candidates, the callback is a mere formality because of how strong the rest of their profile (mostly grades, a bit of resume). For others, they still need to impress during the callback because their profile otherwise may be comparatively weaker. They may have gotten that callback solely due to a strong performance during their screener interview.

I'm going to push back against what @Turtles said here. The incoming summer classes (starting in May/June) as well as the target number of summers to be hired this year are significantly lower than the class sizes during pandemic years (data from friends and my alma mater). Also, the direct hiring (3L) market has normalized. Going south of the border without first summering in the US but pre-articling (so hired during 3L) is definitely not a path to bank on anymore. Quite frankly, many US firms during the pandemic hired candidates (both Canadians and Americans) who otherwise during normal times wouldn't get past screeners, let alone receive callbacks invites/offers.

You shouldn't discount yourself from applying. You should continue to network with Canadian and other attorneys in NYC, submit application during formal resume drops + direct application, etc. Having said that, you really need to get your grades up if you still can. Top 40% or third may nab you a few looks from Toronto, but I would be surprised if you get any bites with your current profile. Also, it seems like you went to law school right after undergrad (K-JD) since all of your previous work experience were summer internships. American firms will discount that for not being fulltime, post-college work experience. This would be a very, very different story if you were an ex-investment banker or consultant and was applying for transactional practices.

There is the alternative path of working at a reputable Canadian firm in a transactional practice and then lateralling down south. That's been covered thoroughly in this forum already.

So if I work at a global firm in Canada, is it hard to move to its NY office after working for a few years?

[C_Terror]

13 hours ago, stampedelaw said:

So if I work at a global firm in Canada, is it hard to move to its NY office after working for a few years?

Depends on what global firm, your practice (M&A/Cap/markets/Finance will yield the most success), deal sheet, and yes, your school and grades. 

[WiseGhost]

To add to that, I would not mention your interest in moving to the NY office come recruitment time. Some Canadian firms will see you as a flight risk because their NY offices are small. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

You’re almost certainly better off trying to make the move from one of the top Bay Street firms rather than any of the verein-style “global” firms. 

[C_Terror]

7 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

You’re almost certainly better off trying to make the move from one of the top Bay Street firms rather than any of the verein-style “global” firms. 

Yes, that was the point I was trying to make without trying to pump up the sister firms lol.