Biglaw Firm Stereotypes (toronto)

[EricaCaine]

3 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

“The fact that there is still a conversation about DEI in the legal profession proves there has been no progress on this issue whatsoever” is nearly as stupid as calling people “so-called racialized lawyers”. 

Seriously, what the fuck. 

Meh. I said what I said. 

1 hour ago, CleanHands said:

Gotta love the narcissism of small differences and exhausting, relentless infighting of the political left.

Self-proclaimed "racialized" people gatekeeping what other visible minorities (not talking about Rachel Dolezals here) count as "racialized" and basically implicitly calling other minorities who have been part of positive change token affirmative action hires. That was one step away from calling them "house n*****s," seriously.

Good fucking grief; morons like this are why other morons elect people like Trump purely as a "go fuck yourself" response.

(And I even happen to agree that firms don't really care and that these are pure social washing marketing efforts to deal with a broader cultural shift, but suggesting that minorities they hire aren't really minorities is simply dumb. And ironically this rant ended up aligning more with right-wing anti-affirmative action takes than anything else in its perception of said hires.).

I am not following what you're saying here or what your point is, but you're certainly entitled to your views. 

[Mountebank]

This thread is a fucking rollercoaster!

As for me, I recently hired a female summer student. So now my firm is three quarters chicks. And one is even Mediterannean looking! I trust you'll agree I'm doing my part.

[123]

5 hours ago, Mountebank said:

This thread is a fucking rollercoaster!

As for me, I recently hired a female summer student. So now my firm is three quarters chicks. And one is even Mediterannean looking! I trust you'll agree I'm doing my part.

This is why my last job posting specified "seeking Mediterranean-looking chick for secretarial work -- irish and french need not apply". #diversity

[C_Terror]

FWIW, a few months back, a keynote speaker at the Toronto FACL event, who was an Asian woman and a senior partner at one of the Sisters put that firm on blast about the performative EDI initiatives and the hard push back for any meaningful change. To her credit, she also announced that she's leaving the partnership to join a smaller firm with actual focus on diversity.

[GoBigOrGoHome]

2 hours ago, C_Terror said:

FWIW, a few months back, a keynote speaker at the Toronto FACL event, who was an Asian woman and a senior partner at one of the Sisters put that firm on blast about the performative EDI initiatives and the hard push back for any meaningful change. To her credit, she also announced that she's leaving the partnership to join a smaller firm with actual focus on diversity.

A hero ❤️

Edited July 5, 2023 by GoBigOrGoHome

[nayaab05]

4 hours ago, C_Terror said:

FWIW, a few months back, a keynote speaker at the Toronto FACL event, who was an Asian woman and a senior partner at one of the Sisters put that firm on blast about the performative EDI initiatives and the hard push back for any meaningful change. To her credit, she also announced that she's leaving the partnership to join a smaller firm with actual focus on diversity.

https://www.law.com/international-edition/2023/03/16/tired-of-big-law-life-top-ip-lawyer-jumps-to-small-6-person-shop/

[QueensDenning]

On 7/3/2023 at 8:46 PM, EricaCaine said:

I am not suggesting that. They don't care. Pointing to these types of initiatives and changes does not change the fact that the initiatives these firms put out are performative. Spending money on surveys, panels, conferences and "training" is not an investment and what obvious dividends are you referring to? Because you see so-called racialized lawyers hired and other members of the "diversity" community being hired does not, by any means, mean there's been significant progress. The fact this is still a conversation should tell you that. From many years on the street and at different law firms, I can share countless stories (especially in recent years), but will not do so for the reasons in my earlier post. People like you are part of the problem - hey, we threw a crumb to these people so there is progress! You lack a rudimentary understanding of institutionalized discrimination and the history of this in Canada and the legal profession. Slow to change etc etc are excuses to maintain a system that benefits the same set of people. 
 

 

Just burn it all down because the system isn't perfect right? Really an argument that's going to change minds... 

Any suggestions? If firms are throwing crumbs now - what's the meal? 

[Jaggers]

Firms make a lot of money for their partners, but they are really small businesses in the overall economy. And every one is different. Some of their efforts are real and are making a difference, some are real and don't actually work, some are performative because a firm thinks they have to do something, and some are done just because everybody else is doing something. It's pretty hard to make one definitive statement about things that hundreds of different small businesses are doing.

[EricaCaine]

On 7/18/2023 at 9:34 AM, Jaggers said:

Firms make a lot of money for their partners, but they are really small businesses in the overall economy. And every one is different. Some of their efforts are real and are making a difference, some are real and don't actually work, some are performative because a firm thinks they have to do something, and some are done just because everybody else is doing something. It's pretty hard to make one definitive statement about things that hundreds of different small businesses are doing.

Nope, it's not. You must be a member of the privileged demographic.

On 7/17/2023 at 11:24 PM, QueensDenning said:

Just burn it all down because the system isn't perfect right? Really an argument that's going to change minds... 

Any suggestions? If firms are throwing crumbs now - what's the meal? 

You first.

On 7/3/2023 at 9:29 PM, GoBigOrGoHome said:

This is my perspective - given my previous workplaces, regional location, background etc...

I think that a lot of the DEI stuff going on right now ends up enacting surface-level change. Not the real change that is needed. 

A lot of the training that I have witnessed is bound to bring some kind of reaction - most of the time one that people cannot be public about. There is a lot of targeting towards the "white man". I view these sorts of statements as similar to "you" statements. When using a "you" statement, people always are on edge and may not actually receive the feedback that you want to share with them. 

The word "privilege" gets thrown out - but people haven't taken the time to explain and help people who didn't attend social science classes about the concept of "unearned privilege". 

In my opinion, these initiatives don't make much of a difference because at the most senior levels, people internally push back. They attend meetings to show that they participated, but they are mentally checked out. 

There has to be a better way to call people in so that they genuinely appreciate the role that they play in what has happened, and want to participate to make things better instead of delegating it out. 

"a lot of targeting of white Men" tells me everything I need to know about you. 

[Jaggers]

You got me. I am!

[Yogurt Baron]

On 7/3/2023 at 9:29 PM, GoBigOrGoHome said:

The word "privilege" gets thrown out - but people haven't taken the time to explain and help people who didn't attend social science classes about the concept of "unearned privilege". 

I'm sympathetic as hell to this argument as applies to the working-class, the poor, the uneducated, etc. I'm as far to the left as I am because I had the time, money, health, and general opportunity to spend on a master's degree in this stuff - I was "privileged" in ten thousand ways that don't get discussed in the current discourse, and should. I had academic mentors. I was welcomed and given opportunities and taught. If somebody wants to say, "Well, I don't know what the hell you're talking about when you say 'you can't be racist against white people', because while you were in the ivory-tower learning about 'privilege', I was working in a factory to support my family," that makes sense to me.

But this argument loses some steam, for me, when you try to apply to people who easily could have attended social science classes if they felt like it, and who are smart enough to learn on their own if they want to. If you've got a third digit on your IQ and you know what a "tort" is, you can wrap your head around "privilege" without someone holding your hand, I promise.

For the record - and I've avoided weighing in on this thread so far, because there is no way my presence on this thread can end in any way other than me calling a bunch of people stupid and then quitting the board for a year (I'm just going to mute the thread) - I think Erica's arguments are ahistorical. It's beyond dispute that Biglaw has made remarkable progress on DEI, at least in part because well-intentioned people are trying to make things better than they were. And things are better than they were. Of course things need to keep getting better. Of course some institutions' claims are pandering and insincere. But I've been kicking around long enough to know what kinds of people got hired at big firms twenty years ago versus today, and no one can deny in good faith that there's been progress.

[CleanHands]

@EricaCaine

Keep blaming your professional failures on discrimination rather than your own personal attributes which are on clear display here and explain everything, if it makes you feel any better. Just don't expect anyone else to validate that.

[ZineZ]

I'm not sure why we've decided to restart this fire two months later, but I'm going to ask that we keep the tone more respectful, friends. Debates are fine - but please play nice inside the sandbox. 

 

[QueensDenning]

On 9/10/2023 at 12:55 AM, EricaCaine said:

Nope, it's not. You must be a member of the privileged demographic.

You first.

"a lot of targeting of white Men" tells me everything I need to know about you. 

Really cutting to the heart of the matter here. 

[Diplock]

Seriously, anyone is still engaging with the person who said "as long as there is a conversation about this that proves there hasn't been any progress" and then starts a conversation about it to cite as proof? You honestly want to engage with someone who believes as long as they choose to talk about whether or not you're wrong, it's proof that you're wrong?

Anyone choosing to talk with someone who sets those terms of debate is almost as dumb as the person who set those terms of debate in the first place. Just saying.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Diplock

[Jaggers]

To be fair, most of us are not really seriously engaging any more 🙂

[EricaCaine]

On 9/10/2023 at 10:39 AM, Jaggers said:

You got me. I am!

😁

15 hours ago, Jaggers said:

To be fair, most of us are not really seriously engaging any more 🙂

Yap

16 hours ago, Diplock said:

Seriously, anyone is still engaging with the person who said "as long as there is a conversation about this that proves there hasn't been any progress" and then starts a conversation about it to cite as proof? You honestly want to engage with someone who believes as long as they choose to talk about whether or not you're wrong, it's proof that you're wrong?

Anyone choosing to talk with someone who sets those terms of debate is almost as dumb as the person who set those terms of debate in the first place. Just saying.

Poorly drafted, and nobody here is dumb. Are you 7 and that's how you make your point, by name calling? 

On 9/11/2023 at 11:43 PM, QueensDenning said:

Really cutting to the heart of the matter here. 

U bet.

On 9/10/2023 at 5:25 PM, CleanHands said:

@EricaCaine

Keep blaming your professional failures on discrimination rather than your own personal attributes which are on clear display here and explain everything, if it makes you feel any better. Just don't expect anyone else to validate that.

Whatever you say, @CleanHands. 🤷🏼‍♀️

[LMP]

Alright, everyone's had a turn. Unless anyone has something to say about the original topic let's leave it at that.