Chances? 3.0 CGPA 3.7 L2. - 157 LSAT

[LawstudentinCanada]

What are your honest opinions?

I know my cgpa is poor. Id like to think some of my ECs were good and last year I applied with the same stats and a 151 lsat and got waitlisted at Windsor while still in school. So idk if that is valuable information. I also didn't hear back from Osgoode or Queens until really late in the cycle. 

My lsat is for NOV and i am really trying to get to a 160 but right now timed im scoring a 157, so do you think ive got a chance to be admitted this year? 

 

[GGrievous]

There is a chance if you apply broadly, but with the rise in LSAT scores getting a 160+ is a good idea. I’d even maybe push the lsat date if you’re not there yet. 

[LawstudentinCanada]

6 hours ago, Barry said:

There is a chance if you apply broadly, but wQuoteith the rise in LSAT scores getting a 160+ is a good idea. I’d even maybe push the lsat date if you’re not there yet. 

Thank you, I will def try to move it up. But if my scoring stayed a 157 which schools in ontario do you think would work?

im worried that my cgpa wont let me go anywhere in ontario 

[GGrievous]

My guess would be Windsor or Ryerson. Did you try out the calculator? 

[LawstudentinCanada]

1 hour ago, Barry said:

My guess would be Windsor or Ryerson. Did you try out the calculator? 

I am not applying to Ryerson, just Windsor out of the two options. 

No sorry which calculator?

[GGrievous]

44 minutes ago, LawstudentinCanada said:

I am not applying to Ryerson, just Windsor out of the two options. 

No sorry which calculator?

https://lawapplicants.ca/predictor

[LawstudentinCanada]

23 hours ago, Barry said:

https://lawapplicants.ca/predictor

gracias my friend 

[LawstudentinCanada]

The schools I am applying to knowing my stats - Windsor, Queens, Western and Osgoode 

please if youve applied before let me know what you think 

Edited October 2, 2021 by LawstudentinCanada

[oliviaspencer80]

Replying to this thread so I can follow it lol I have the same ish stats and I’m hoping to get into Ryerson  

[Federale]

I had these stats but with a 165 LSAT and got rejected at all the schools you listed, just giving you a heads up

[oliviaspencer80]

Including Ryerson? Damn wow. I am really praying my graduate gpa & personal statement impresses them since everything else in my profile is not competitive. 

[Kobe]

5 hours ago, Federale said:

I had these stats but with a 165 LSAT and got rejected at all the schools you listed, just giving you a heads up

I would have thought Queens would have been for sure given solid L2 and really good LSAT. 

[oliviaspencer80]

Yeah I’m actually pretty shocked you didn’t get into any schools in Ontario with those stats. Do you mind sharing why you think that could’ve been, Federale? Anything we can prepare for? For the upcoming cycle 

[Rashabon]

165 LSAT is not all that high compared to a 3.0 CGPA. That's not even in splitter territory. That's "okay" LSAT score coupled with tire fire CGPA. Absent special circumstances, people that flirt with a 2 before the decimal should be striving for 170+.

[oliviaspencer80]

Do you think a person’s overall application has an impact? Like if the numbers aren’t good (both LSAT & GPA are decent, not in splitter territory, etc) then do you think your “story” can decorate your application? Like if you have interesting life/work experiences and you mention all this in your personal statements, does that at least put you in a good spot to be considered? Idk. I guess numbers matter heavily for all law schools though. 

[SNAILS]

On 9/30/2021 at 10:03 PM, LawstudentinCanada said:

I am not applying to Ryerson, just Windsor out of the two options. 

No sorry which calculator?

It's your life, and your choice. Ask yourself if you knew for a fact that Ryerson was the only school you could get into, would you still not apply?

They do B2, so it might be favourable for you. If the geographic location of Osgoode is fine with you, the geographic location of Ryerson should be fine too.

It's $100 to add Ryerson, and you have a couple of days to change your mind about not applying.

[LordBONSAI]

7 hours ago, oliviaspencer80 said:

Do you think a person’s overall application has an impact? Like if the numbers aren’t good (both LSAT & GPA are decent, not in splitter territory, etc) then do you think your “story” can decorate your application? Like if you have interesting life/work experiences and you mention all this in your personal statements, does that at least put you in a good spot to be considered? Idk. I guess numbers matter heavily for all law schools though. 

To my knowledge, softs are used as a tie-breaker amongst applicants whose stats are similar to each other. But please take this with a grain of salt. Good softs don't always push applications with below-median numbers to the admitted realm. I remember being told that it is uncommon that the law school has to choose from several applicants with identical gpa/lsat, unless they all happen to be borderline and one or two seats are made available at the end of waitlist period. Hope this helps.

Edited October 30, 2021 by LordBONSAI

[Kobe]

9 hours ago, Rashabon said:

165 LSAT is not all that high compared to a 3.0 CGPA. That's not even in splitter territory. That's "okay" LSAT score coupled with tire fire CGPA. Absent special circumstances, people that flirt with a 2 before the decimal should be striving for 170+.

This could very well be true, I have no reason to refute it but why do schools even state they are looking at L2? Like in the case of Queen's which is a explicit L2 school would 3.7 165 not be above most admits? Seems this person was penalized for their cGPA even at an L2 school. 

[Rashabon]

Yes they will primarily consider L2 and what not but my understanding is they aren’t going to just ignore pertinent information. All things being equal you’d take the student with a 3.7 L2 and 3.5 CGPA over the one with a 3.0.

[QMT20]

30 minutes ago, Kobe said:

This could very well be true, I have no reason to refute it but why do schools even state they are looking at L2? Like in the case of Queen's which is a explicit L2 school would 3.7 165 not be above most admits? Seems this person was penalized for their cGPA even at an L2 school. 

Not necessarily. The people who have a 3.7 B2/L2 and a 3.0 CGPA that are admitted could be most of the admitted candidates that also have a 165+ LSAT and the people who have a 3.9 B2/L2 with a 3.7+ CGPA could be most of the people who have a sub 160 LSAT. If you admit a percentage of students who have a low GPA and a really high LSAT along with a percentage with a really high GPA and low LSAT, your average candidate will be something like a 3.7 GPA and a 162 LSAT. However, the candidate with the 3.7 B2/L2, 3.0 CGPA, and 165 LSAT could still be below average for the pool of candidates with similar stats to them, that are being considered. 

If you have a 3.7+ CGPA and a 165+ LSAT, you'll probably get into Osgoode and may be considered for U of T, so many of the admits at Queen's/Western probably have one flaw or the other (low GPA or low LSAT). 

I had a high 3.8 L2/B2, a 3.22 CGPA, and a 167 LSAT when I applied a few years ago, and I didn't hear back from Queen's or Western until late April. 

On 10/1/2021 at 11:22 PM, LawstudentinCanada said:

The schools I am applying to knowing my stats - Windsor, Queens, Western and Osgoode 

please if youve applied before let me know what you think 

To go back to OP's question, absent truly extraordinary ECs, I don't think a 3.7 L2/B2, 3.0 CGPA and 157 LSAT is close to being competitive for Queen's or Western. Nobody hears back from Queen's about a rejection until really late (June at least) in the cycle. Your chances for Osgoode would be lower than your chance for Queen's or Western. I'm not sure about Windsor. 

I don't want to be negative on your chances for the sake of being negative. You still have time to improve your stats by getting a higher LSAT score. If law school is your goal, then put in as much effort as you can to maximize your score. That could open the door for you at some of the schools you mentioned. Currently, I think your stats are too low. 

[oliviaspencer80]

2 hours ago, LordBONSAI said:

To my knowledge, softs are used as a tie-breaker amongst applicants whose stats are similar to each other. But please take this with a grain of salt. Good softs don't always push applications with below-median numbers to the admitted realm. I remember being told that it is uncommon that the law school has to choose from several applicants with identical gpa/lsat, unless they all happen to be borderline and one or two seats are made available at the end of waitlist period. Hope this helps.

Oh okay. I’m asking because I wanted to know what schools are looking for when they say they review applications holistically. Do they consider your culturally diverse background/if you’re a visible minority, financial situation that deterred you from doing well, obstacles you faced due to your identity- which could in part account for the outliers in your application. Are law schools becoming more interested in admitting a diverse group of people vs stats/numbers? 

[LordBONSAI]

50 minutes ago, oliviaspencer80 said:

Oh okay. I’m asking because I wanted to know what schools are looking for when they say they review applications holistically. Do they consider your culturally diverse background/if you’re a visible minority, financial situation that deterred you from doing well, obstacles you faced due to your identity- which could in part account for the outliers in your application. Are law schools becoming more interested in admitting a diverse group of people vs stats/numbers? 

IMO holistic admissions is a myth and often overstated by law schools as a branding strategy. Generally, adcomm is looking for candidates whose academic aptitude can speak for their potential to study at a law school. By far, GPA/LSAT is the most reliable measure of that potential. In essence, softs don't matter much for two groups: the really competitive applicants, and those having truly poor stats (except for some outliers who have extremely unique backgrounds). Softs bear most significance, as I mentioned, to borderline applicants because they can differentiate one app from another, hence deciding who is in. So, to answer your question: law schools do care about diversity, and there're categories (mature, access, etc.) for people who have good reasons for their underperformed numbers. However, spots reserved for these categories are small compared with merit-based admissions. 

Edited October 30, 2021 by LordBONSAI

[katiecan]

This quote is from page 7 of Western's 2022-2023  Prospectus: "Strong cumulative average (3.7) given priority". So even though they are an L2 school, they seem to favour high CGPA's as well

[Rashabon]

It's common sense if you think about it. Unless you have an access claim or a truly unique profile, why would a school pick someone with a spotty academic history over someone with a very consistent record of academic performance?

Two students with identical LSAT scores and middling softs but four years of 3.7 vs. two years of 3.0 and two years of 3.7 isn't a hard choice.

2 hours ago, oliviaspencer80 said:

Oh okay. I’m asking because I wanted to know what schools are looking for when they say they review applications holistically. Do they consider your culturally diverse background/if you’re a visible minority, financial situation that deterred you from doing well, obstacles you faced due to your identity- which could in part account for the outliers in your application. Are law schools becoming more interested in admitting a diverse group of people vs stats/numbers? 

They consider all that, but the last sentence presumes they don't have a pool of diverse applications that also manage to perform well academically, and that's not strictly the case. So while yes, there may be special dispensation for certain circumstances (often through the access application) and the schools will consider your full record, they have plenty of candidates that fill both sides of the ledger. U of T's Indigenous admissions FAQ is helpful to consider:

Are there a certain number of spaces reserved for Indigenous application category JD students?

No. There are no ‘quotas’ or minimum or maximum number of reserved spots reserved for any applicant category.

Are there minimum GPA and LSAT scores for an applicant to be competitive?

There are no strict cut-offs with regard to GPAs and LSAT scores for any applicant. As mentioned above, Our JD admissions process is designed to identify exceptional students who will bring a broad and complex set of life experiences to the study of law.

We give a full reading to your application with equal emphasis on your LSAT, academic record and person profile. The review process is context sensitive, which means that we look at all of these factors together.  While academic records and LSAT scores play a role in our assessment, we rely on the essays for information that cannot be conveyed by numbers.

We encourage students with apparently less competitive LSAT scores and undergraduate records to apply, since every year we admit a significant number of students whose files when considered in proper context merit offers of admission.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Rashabon

[Kobe]

3 hours ago, Rashabon said:

It's common sense if you think about it. Unless you have an access claim or a truly unique profile, why would a school pick someone with a spotty academic history over someone with a very consistent record of academic performance?

Two students with identical LSAT scores and middling softs but four years of 3.7 vs. two years of 3.0 and two years of 3.7 isn't a hard choice.

They consider all that, but the last sentence presumes they don't have a pool of diverse applications that also manage to perform well academically, and that's not strictly the case. So while yes, there may be special dispensation for certain circumstances (often through the access application) and the schools will consider your full record, they have plenty of candidates that fill both sides of the ledger. U of T's Indigenous admissions FAQ is helpful to consider:

Are there a certain number of spaces reserved for Indigenous application category JD students?

No. There are no ‘quotas’ or minimum or maximum number of reserved spots reserved for any applicant category.

Are there minimum GPA and LSAT scores for an applicant to be competitive?

There are no strict cut-offs with regard to GPAs and LSAT scores for any applicant. As mentioned above, Our JD admissions process is designed to identify exceptional students who will bring a broad and complex set of life experiences to the study of law.

We give a full reading to your application with equal emphasis on your LSAT, academic record and person profile. The review process is context sensitive, which means that we look at all of these factors together.  While academic records and LSAT scores play a role in our assessment, we rely on the essays for information that cannot be conveyed by numbers.

We encourage students with apparently less competitive LSAT scores and undergraduate records to apply, since every year we admit a significant number of students whose files when considered in proper context merit offers of admission.

This makes sense, I assumed it was very contextual and that's the understanding I get here. I suppose you would need stronger than the median L2 at L2 schools to make up for the cGPA weakness. Which would explain why the 3.7 165 did not cut it.