Non Big-LawSalary and grades question

[queenie]

Im a 1L and have been trying to figure out what I want to do when I graduate. I am interested in family law, crim, and potentially being a government lawyer. I have no interest in BigLaw, but I am hoping to make decent money. I can't seem to find a straight answer to the salary question in non-Bay Street jobs. 

So, can anyone tell me what I can expect to make as a non-coprporate lawyer in the first few years of my career? 

Also, what kinds of grades should I be getting in law school to pursue those fields?

Thanks!

[GGrievous]

Depends

[Toad]

Family law - Having average grades with a demonstrated interest in family law and relevant ECs would make you a strong candidate for most positions. There are some articling positions advertised, but most of them are acquired through reaching out to firms or networking. Family law is one of the easier areas of law to find an associate position in, especially after you have a couple years of experience. You can search "family lawyer" on Indeed and find many associate positions being advertised. Some of them will provide a general idea as to the pay being offered and what they look for in a candidate. 

I'd say $50,000-70,000 is a good estimate for a first year associate's earnings. 

Criminal law - There seems to be quite a few articling positions in the area of criminal law, but associate positions appear much harder to come by. For comparison, I think I've seen at least 10-20 family law associate positions advertised for every criminal law associate position. From my understanding it is quite common for criminal defense lawyers to become sole practitioners early in their careers. Required grades vary.  Some elite boutiques will hire only medalists and dean's listers, other firms and practitioners care less about grades. Most lawyers practicing criminal law won't be interested in hiring you unless you have a strong demonstrated interest in the practice area. 

There are a lot of students who go to law school exclusively because they want to practice criminal law. These students sign up to every EC related to criminal law that they can as soon as they enter law school, take most of their electives in the area of criminal law, and begin networking with the criminal bar early. These students will inevitably secure almost all of the most desirable positions. It is uncommon to fall ass backwards into a good criminal defense position. If you're not committed to the practice area it'll usually be easy to tell and you'll be at a competitive disadvantage relative to all the students who genuinely couldn't see themselves doing anything else.

Crown salaries are publicly available since they're a government job. I don't know anything about the recruitment process for Crowns. Anecdotally, the students I know who landed Crown articling positions were above average students. 

Government - Government jobs list their salaries publicly, so you can find the salary ranges for most positions if you search. I don't know much about the recruitment process, but I know it's competitive. 

 

Edit: Didn't realize this was in the "ask a lawyer" section. If a practicing lawyer tells you something different I'll yield to them. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Toad

[GGrievous]

2 hours ago, Toad said:

Edit: Didn't realize this was in the "ask a lawyer" section

I'm pretty sure they just wanted reassurance that if they don't do biglaw they can still make the big bucks. But yes ditto on the yield, not that I actually offered anything. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Barry

[Darth Vader]

Where are you looking to practice? 

There are very few student positions in family law but tons of Associate jobs for lawyers with 2+ years experience in the field. You need to network with family lawyers to land a summer and articling position in this field as most don't participate in OCIs and articling recruit. You can get family law exposure through working at places like the Barbra Schlifer Clinic, MAG Office of the Children's Lawyer, MAG Family Responsibility Office, Bales Beall, Epstein Cole, etc. that do regularly hire summer and articing students. Grades don't matter much for most family law employers but Epstein Cole is considered one of the best firms in Ontario and you need high grades in at least the family law classes you take, and/or attend a top school (i.e. many of their Associates are U of T grads). Some of their Associates have also clerked at the Family Court. 

The criminal law field is tiered where the most academic students that are medalists and deans listers (many also clerk at the SCC and appellate courts) will work at top criminal defence firms, litigation boutiques that do white-collar crime, investigations, etc., and Crown offices. You pretty much need a high B+ to A average for these places. Just see the profiles of lawyers working at Henein Hutchinson and Addario. You can get into less competitive Crown offices outside major locations with a B average provided you show a demonstrated interest and perform well in the interview process. 

There are lots of good criminal defence firms that hire average/below average students that demonstrate a passion for criminal law. Most criminal lawyers are also sole practitioners so your salary depends on your reputation and how much business you bring and what type of files you're taking on. 

Government is a broad category. Are we talking about municipal, provincial or federal; legal aid; non-profits; law society and other regulatory organizations, etc.?

The OCI process which takes place in 2L mostly consists of Big law jobs. The articling recruit which takes place in the summer before your 3L year has more of the employers you are looking for, but still most jobs in this recruit are focused in a few select areas - personal injury, insurance defence, labour and employment (lots of in-house union jobs), and government (Ontario Ministry of Attorney General specifically). 

You won't be making Big law money but you should make 60-70k+ in your first year provided you're working with a decent employer and in a major location. 

To land a position in these fields, you need to narrow down your interests quickly and pick an area or two to "specialize in". These employers will look closely at your upper year course selection, clinicals, extracurriculars, etc. Government departments all specialize in different areas so you would also need to tailor your application for the ones you want to work at. You won't land these jobs applying with a generic resume unless your grades are in the top of your class. 

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Darth Vader

[artsydork]

50-70k makes sense for a lot of smaller firms for jr associates. I've seen Ottawa postings at 50k in the last year. It's very possible to hit $100k by year 3-5, depending on your billables, practice size, etc.  Many smaller firms will have you on a fee sharing or base salary+bonus as opposed to straight salary. 

The answer is always going to be "it depends" as it varies on type of firm, location, billables, etc. 

[Hegdis]

I went through this thread and spliced a massive derail, then posted it here: [spliced] Take It With A Grain Of Salt - General - The Canadian Law Forum (canlawforum.com)

[Hegdis]

OP, one of the big sells in a resume is an actual demonstrated interest in the field. No one wants to hire and train a student who just wants to get Called so they can take off and do something completely different. Along with it being a waste of time and money (students seldom make a practice money, on the balance) it's disheartening. We all want to work with and mentor people who are genuinely interested in what we do. So we look for that when we are hiring.

Obviously some people try one thing and it doesn't work so they move on to other things, and that's normal. But the idea is to actually want the job you are applying for when you apply for it. So if you want to do criminal law, get yourself into as many crim-related classes as you can, volunteer with a clinic, get to know the John Howard society, approach profs and see if they have any related research projects they need help with.

I might not care that you got a B- in Evidence if I can see that you have two years with the student clinic and a strong, personalized reference from your criminal procedure prof saying you're legitimately passionate about this area of law.

 

I am sure this kind of reasoning would apply in other areas, but I can only speak to one.

[GGrievous]

34 minutes ago, Hegdis said:

approach profs

Gonna piggyback on this one, though perhaps I should start a new thread on it. There is a prof that teaches the other cohort. I was so bummed to not get them as my instructor and I’ve been working up a good way to get in touch with them. I haven’t really come up with a good purpose other than “hey I want you to know me so that I can get a reference from you somehow”… any advice on how to go about this? 

Edited October 7, 2021 by Barry

[Hegdis]

You can try approaching them with a question about a concept you're struggling with. Say you are looking for another viewpoint / perspective to help you understand it (don't imply that your own prof sucks lol). That way they know your name and face. From there it's up to you.

[GGrievous]

1 minute ago, Hegdis said:

(don't imply that your own prof sucks lol

I’ll try my very best. 

[Pecan Boy]

10 minutes ago, Barry said:

Gonna piggyback on this one, though perhaps I should start a new thread on it. There is a prof that teaches the other cohort. I was so bummed to not get them as my instructor and I’ve been working up a good way to get in touch with them. I haven’t really come up with a good purpose other than “hey I want you to know me so that I can get a reference from you somehow”… any advice on how to go about this? 

Reach out and ask if they're looking for RAs

[GGrievous]

2 minutes ago, Pecan Boy said:

Reach out and ask if they're looking for RAs

They’re a sessional so I don’t think they do research unfortunately! I might reach out and ask for career advice though… at least they’ll meet me and know what I’m interested in. I just want to do it in such a way that leads to ongoing face-to-face time. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

@Barry, why don't you just reach out and ask them to meet up for coffee? It's not at all unusual for law students to contact practitioners to network with them and grab coffee, and most lawyers are more than happy to do so.

I would just send them a note explaining you're a [insert year] student at [insert school], and you know they teach [insert class] and have [insert type of practice]. Say you're very interested in learning about [area of law], particularly from a practitioner's point of view, and ask if they would be willing to meet for coffee in the future. 

If they say yes, go to the coffee meeting ready to discuss the area of law and with some well thought out questions. Then, at the end of the meeting (or in a follow up email), thank them for their time and ask if they would be willing to answer any follow up questions you may have. That way, you can try to organically grow it into a mentorship relationship. Alternatively, you can simply ask if they would be willing to be a mentor for you; there are plenty of good articles online about how to do that tactfully. 

Edited October 7, 2021 by BlockedQuebecois

[GGrievous]

2 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

why don't you just reach out and ask them to meet up for coffee?

Fear. The reason is fear. 
 

Thanks for the solid advice though, I’ll have to work on coming up with what I’d say at a potential coffee meeting and some questions that don’t make me sound like an idiot before I pull the trigger. This shit is harder than asking for a date. 

[123]

15 minutes ago, Barry said:

Fear. The reason is fear. 
 

Thanks for the solid advice though, I’ll have to work on coming up with what I’d say at a potential coffee meeting and some questions that don’t make me sound like an idiot before I pull the trigger. This shit is harder than asking for a date. 

It’s like jumping into cold water. If you sit around and think about it forever, you’re not going to go. But if you just take the plunge and do it, it’s not that bad and you feel kind of good after. 

[GGrievous]

2 minutes ago, realpseudonym said:

It’s like jumping into cold water. If you sit around and think about it forever, you’re not going to go. But if you just take the plunge and do it, it’s not that bad and you feel kind of good after. 

Thanks for the encouragement! I gotta put on my big boy pants and do it I know. 

[Jaggers]

Cold-calling lawyers is super easy. You just ask one simple question and they will drone on about how great they are and how interesting their practice is for like 2 hours.

(Though cold e-mail is much better than cold call. Lawyers are so excited about the chance to boast about their work that they will invariably respond to your email to set up a call.)

Edited October 8, 2021 by Jaggers

[GGrievous]

29 minutes ago, Jaggers said:

Lawyers are so excited about the chance to boast about their work that they will invariably respond to your email to set up a call.

This is good to know and giving me confidence. I should note this guy is a big shot lawyer and a firm owner, I don't know if the same applies in that case. 

[HammurabiTime]

18 minutes ago, Barry said:

This is good to know and giving me confidence. I should note this guy is a big shot lawyer and a firm owner, I don't know if the same applies in that case. 

My personal experience has been that the more senior people are more receptive to this type of thing than juniors (who are probably stretched very thin with no control over their schedule).

[GGrievous]

Just now, HammurabiTime said:

My personal experience has been that the more senior people are more receptive to this type of thing than juniors (who are probably stretched very thin with no control over their schedule).

That’s great news! I’m gonna do it guys.