Ontario 1Ls/2Ls- Be aware of the new LSO licensing changes (guarantor/referee)

[BlushAndTheBar]

I just wanted to put a message out there for those unlucky few who are unrelated to someone with a professional designation (doctor, lawyer, engineer, dentist etc). As of this month, the new changes to licensing require a guarantor or a reference within a specific list of professional designations. If it is a guarantor the person has to have known you for 2 years and if you do not have a guarantor you need a referee who has known you for 3 years. 

If there is no one in your life that can be a guarantor for you, you can ask a Professor- but be aware majority were not updated on this recent change. 

I am posting this message so that people in lower years can prepare and try to have someone in mind for 3L!

Your guarantor or referee can work in one of the following occupations: 

• Lawyer • Medical Doctor • Dentist • Notary Public • Pharmacist • Veterinarian •Professional Engineer • Professional Accountant • Paralegal licensed by the Law Society of Ontario
•Judge or Justice of the Peace • Chief of a band recognized under the Indian Act
• Mayor • police officer or constable
• Dean, Associate Dean, Registrar, or professor at a university faculty of law or within a paralegal education program at a college accredited by the Law Society
• Municipal clerk or treasurer who is a member of the Association of Municipal Managers, Clerks and Treasurers of Ontario
• A religious authority authorized by applicable law to perform marriages

https://lso.ca/becoming-licensed/lawyer-licensing-process/application-for-admission/completing-the-licensing-process-application

This is something I wish I would have known much earlier as a first generation student in University, but alas here we are!

 

[Snails and Ales]

Thank you for this! 

[BuckDancer]

below the list it says "The above list is not a recognition or endorsement by the Law Society of professional status or superior qualifications."....but if it is not this then what is it? The only possibility I see is that each of the listed professions requires some sort of "registration" with a professional or government body but that doesn't make a lot of sense when they conspicuously leave off teachers, nurses, etc. 

[BlushAndTheBar]

15 minutes ago, BuckDancer said:

below the list it says "The above list is not a recognition or endorsement by the Law Society of professional status or superior qualifications."....but if it is not this then what is it? The only possibility I see is that each of the listed professions requires some sort of "registration" with a professional or government body but that doesn't make a lot of sense when they conspicuously leave off teachers, nurses, etc. 

Yup. 

[Diplock]

19 hours ago, BuckDancer said:

below the list it says "The above list is not a recognition or endorsement by the Law Society of professional status or superior qualifications."....but if it is not this then what is it? The only possibility I see is that each of the listed professions requires some sort of "registration" with a professional or government body but that doesn't make a lot of sense when they conspicuously leave off teachers, nurses, etc. 

The Law Society is run "by and for" lawyers. They take the first part of that way more seriously than the second. Just saying. Everything else they do makes sense as long as you keep that firmly in mind.

[Apple]

"Increase access to justice" as they proceed to add yet another hurdle for individuals to get over to get licensed. 

[Eatable Bran]

Does this strike others as remarkably classist?

[BlockedQuebecois]

To be honest, this feels like less of a hurdle than the prior process, which required the equivalent materials to be commissioned. I expect most schools will set up processes to have the materials guaranteed by one of the appropriate school administrators, as they used to do with having the materials commissioned. 

I think the people this actually harms are NCA candidates, many of whom will not know any of these licensed professionals in Canada. 

But if you manage to finish three years of law school without knowing any professors, lawyers, deans, associate deans or registrars, I am incredibly impressed. 

[Apple]

1 hour ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

To be honest, this feels like less of a hurdle than the prior process, which required the equivalent materials to be commissioned. I expect most schools will set up processes to have the materials guaranteed by one of the appropriate school administrators, as they used to do with having the materials commissioned. 

I think the people this actually harms are NCA candidates, many of whom will not know any of these licensed professionals in Canada. 

But if you manage to finish three years of law school without knowing any professors, lawyers, deans, associate deans or registrars, I am incredibly impressed. 

Schools were already providing commissioning services which did not necessitate knowledge of the applicant for the span of years. Can a school administrator truthfully say they "knew students personally for two years"? Probably not. My thought is that they should have just made it an option alongside commissioning rather than necessitating one over the other. 

[BlushAndTheBar]

19 minutes ago, Apple said:

Schools were already providing commissioning services which did not necessitate knowledge of the applicant for the span of years. Can a school administrator truthfully say they "knew students personally for two years"? Probably not. My thought is that they should have just made it an option alongside commissioning rather than necessitating one over the other. 

Yes, this is an issue i've been seeing students experience in real time. Additionally, Professors who have had students for 1+ classes have not necessarily been made aware of the change, so if they are not called in Ontario, were never called, etc. it creates confusion given the departure from the old process. On top of the fact that students already need support from Professors for things like letters of reference, so either you apply for that job you've been gunning for or you get licensed. 

[Ryn]

This process sounds exactly like what you need to get a passport or file a name change. The guarantor, from my cursory read through, doesn’t have to be a personal relationship. Just someone who knows you are who you say. Not sure how this adds an insurmountable hurdle. I presume there are plenty of profs in law school who would know an applicant enough to fill out the form. Failing that, a dentist or doctor that one likely visited in the 3 years of law school or even from earlier.

Nonetheless, it’s good to know there has been a change. Do you still have to get your application commissioned? If not, then I would argue this is less of a burden since who can commission documents is an even shorter list.

[BlushAndTheBar]

57 minutes ago, Ryn said:

This process sounds exactly like what you need to get a passport or file a name change. The guarantor, from my cursory read through, doesn’t have to be a personal relationship. Just someone who knows you are who you say. Not sure how this adds an insurmountable hurdle. I presume there are plenty of profs in law school who would know an applicant enough to fill out the form. Failing that, a dentist or doctor that one likely visited in the 3 years of law school or even from earlier.

Nonetheless, it’s good to know there has been a change. Do you still have to get your application commissioned? If not, then I would argue this is less of a burden since who can commission documents is an even shorter list.

My understanding is that the new process completely removes the requirement to have the application commissioned. 

[goosie]

4 hours ago, Ryn said:

Do you still have to get your application commissioned? If not, then I would argue this is less of a burden since who can commission documents is an even shorter list.

3 hours ago, BlushAndTheBar said:

My understanding is that the new process completely removes the requirement to have the application commissioned. 

Can confirm as a current 3L, this new guarantor/referee requirement is replacing the requirement to get the application commissioned.

[Bruiser]

On 10/26/2021 at 12:41 PM, BlushAndTheBar said:

• Mayor

My expectations for the LSO were low to begin with, but considering Toronto's crack mayor scandal was less than a decade away, I am still surprised.

[capitalttruth]

Damnit. I shouldn't have told off the Mayor last week. Now who's going to sign my guarantor form?

[legalpotato]

Resurrecting this thread lol - does anyone know if you can still get the application commissioned if you do not have a guarantor? 

[erin otoole]

3 hours ago, legalpotato said:

Resurrecting this thread lol - does anyone know if you can still get the application commissioned if you do not have a guarantor? 

Ask one of the younger more laid back professors. They are 99% willing to be your guarantor. 

[Panda]

On 10/26/2022 at 10:37 AM, legalpotato said:

Resurrecting this thread lol - does anyone know if you can still get the application commissioned if you do not have a guarantor? 

If you can't find anyone, let me know, we can meet over Teams and I can act as the guarantor

[BlockedQuebecois]

17 minutes ago, Panda said:

If you can't find anyone, let me know, we can meet over Teams and I can act as the guarantor

Why on earth would you publicly offer to lie to the law society for someone you’ve never met? 

[Panda]

I assume you could as a notary undertake the same process to check IDs online using the process outlined by the LSO - there is no intention to lie. If that doesn't meet the standard, then I couldn't do it. 

Edit: I just checked the LSO website and can confirm that you need two years of knowledge of the applicant - so I could not do that. I had just assume that you could as a notary, so you're right - I can't.

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Panda

[myth000]

I "referee" 

6 hours ago, Panda said:

I assume you could as a notary undertake the same process to check IDs online using the process outlined by the LSO - there is no intention to lie. If that doesn't meet the standard, then I couldn't do it. 

Edit: I just checked the LSO website and can confirm that you need two years of knowledge of the applicant - so I could not do that. I had just assume that you could as a notary, so you're right - I can't.

 

You can't act as a guarantor, but you can act as a referee.  A "Canadian citizen" referee does not have to know the person for two years.  It was nice of you to offer to help, there was no reason for Blocked to jump in with an unhelpful comment.  

The referee can be either:

a Canadian citizen who works in a listed occupation or profession who has known you personally for less than two years but who can confirm your identity and may be called upon to confirm personal information about you,
or

a non-Canadian citizen who works in a listed occupation or profession, has known you personally for at least 2 years, can confirm your identity and may be called upon to confirm personal information about you .

 

[BlockedQuebecois]

Stopping someone from falling afoul of the LSO (and causing undue stress on the law students who would be scrambling to find a replacement) strikes me as the opposite of unhelpful. 

My understanding is that the LSO initially took the view that “referees” still had to know the applicant personally – i.e. serving as a commissioner in all but name was not acceptable. If that’s changed, then fair point @myth000. But lawyers thinking of doing so for students they’ve never met and won’t be able to confirm any details about should probably confirm with the LSO, both for their own good and for the good of the student. 

[epeeist]

10 hours ago, myth000 said:

I "referee" 

You can't act as a guarantor, but you can act as a referee.  A "Canadian citizen" referee does not have to know the person for two years.  It was nice of you to offer to help, there was no reason for Blocked to jump in with an unhelpful comment.  

The referee can be either:

a Canadian citizen who works in a listed occupation or profession who has known you personally for less than two years but who can confirm your identity and may be called upon to confirm personal information about you,
or

a non-Canadian citizen who works in a listed occupation or profession, has known you personally for at least 2 years, can confirm your identity and may be called upon to confirm personal information about you .

 

I would have highlighted "known you personally" before the less than two years part. Or the "may be called upon to confirm personal information about you." Does this mean one has to have known personally for some period of time, just less than 2 years okay? Or is "meeting" for first time by video "known you personally"? Enough to "confirm personal information"? I don't know, I'm not going to give legal advice here, but @BlockedQuebecois was and is right to warn against well-meaning offers that may be problematic and should be carefully considered before offering.

Also, if anyone in the process has questions or concerns about process, how about they ask the LSO directly about what to do if they can't find a referee?