Dropping Out During 1L for Federal Government Job?

[TheBigShort]

Hello,

This is my first time posting on this forum, but I am currently a 1L. For background context, I have a BA in Political Science and went straight from undergrad to law school. I experienced extremely heavy pressure from my parents to be a lawyer, and this certainly influenced my decision to attend. However, I genuinely find criminal law to be intellectually appealing, and I entered law with the exclusive intention of practicing criminal (Crown or defense). In any case, I have recently been offered a full-time, indeterminate law enforcement position with a federal agency (I will not be disclosing any particulars in the interest of anonymity). Prior to law school, my initial plan was to go into law enforcement. I will have a starting salary of approximately 65K, increasing to approximately 100K within 5 years (depending on OT calculations) + federal government benefits & pension. I am hesitant to quit something that I have already started, but I am also very tempted by this opportunity for a variety of reasons. If you were in my situation, what would you do? Do any of you have experience/know someone that has been in a similar situation with a job offer at the beginning of law school?

Thanks in advance!

Edited October 26, 2021 by SuperJudo123

[LMP]

By your description it sounds like this is a CBSA gig. Even if it isn't the result is the same, only you can decide what you want to do long-term.

If you want to be a lawyer stay in law school.

If you want to work for the feds, but not as a lawyer, take the job. 

If you're unsure, I'd stay in school. It doesn't sound like this is a once in a life time opportunity so it may well be available to you after graduation. Honestly taking the job is probably the smarter financial move, but that shouldn't be the sole factor of consideration. 

[QueensDenning]

I mean, if you want to be a lawyer, don't quit law school. If it's about money, you're probably going to be better off, long term, going the law route. Most government jobs don't get much north of 100K (though the benefits and quality of life might make up for it). If you have no desire to actually become a lawyer than easy, take the job. Law enforcement is a very - like very very - different career.

Edit: I also did polisci and also had a full time job offer with similar pay before deciding to proceed with 1L. It was an incredibly easy decision for me.

Edited October 26, 2021 by QueensDenning

[CleanHands]

I'm in criminal law and worked in law enforcement before law school.

In terms of finances, job security, benefits, etc (accounting for real and opportunity cost) you are better off in law enforcement job than criminal law.

I still don't regret it because I had serious ethical concerns with what I was privy to in law enforcement and the bulk of my coworkers and supervisors were both idiots and scumbags. If you can stomach all of that (hey, some people even like the job and people they work with) it's a better career than criminal law. I could not.

[RC51]

6 hours ago, SuperJudo123 said:

Hello,

This is my first time posting on this forum, but I am currently a 1L. For background context, I have a BA in Political Science and went straight from undergrad to law school. I experienced extremely heavy pressure from my parents to be a lawyer, and this certainly influenced my decision to attend. However, I genuinely find criminal law to be intellectually appealing, and I entered law with the exclusive intention of practicing criminal (Crown or defense). In any case, I have recently been offered a full-time, indeterminate law enforcement position with a federal agency (I will not be disclosing any particulars in the interest of anonymity). Prior to law school, my initial plan was to go into law enforcement. I will have a starting salary of approximately 65K, increasing to approximately 100K within 5 years (depending on OT calculations) + federal government benefits & pension. I am hesitant to quit something that I have already started, but I am also very tempted by this opportunity for a variety of reasons. If you were in my situation, what would you do? Do any of you have experience/know someone that has been in a similar situation with a job offer at the beginning of law school?

Thanks in advance!

Hello OP, I've found myself having the same thoughts about this exact same issue. I think the best would be to finish what you started in 1L, take a sabbatical and find your way back to that job next year or even next semester. That way, if it is possible, you and try it, and if it does not work out to your liking, you may fall back on law school. But otherwise, if this is your true calling, you should go for it.

[Bottlebottle]

I think I’m late, but I currently have a indeterminate gig with the feds. It’s great, but let me tell you, a lot of the people I work with gave up on law school dreams for the golden handcuffs. I’ve talked to all of them and 99% say that they wish they had pursued law school. Yes - the benefits are great, the life is easy. But it will simply never measure up to the prestige and achievement of being a lawyer. 

[Deadpool]

24 minutes ago, Shasha22 said:

I think I’m late, but I currently have a indeterminate gig with the feds. It’s great, but let me tell you, a lot of the people I work with gave up on law school dreams for the golden handcuffs. I’ve talked to all of them and 99% say that they wish they had pursued law school. Yes - the benefits are great, the life is easy. But it will simply never measure up to the prestige and achievement of being a lawyer. 

I don't know. This sounds more like the "grass is greener on the other side" talking. There are many lawyers that leave the practice of law to pursue various government jobs. I have seen lawyers with SCC clerkships and ivy league credentials pursue government policy positions. They still have the title of saying they are a "lawyer", but they are employed in positions that you do not need a law degree for. Getting legal positions in the government, especially in the federal government, is not at all easy. Out of my graduating class of ~300 students, less than 5 people did it. Only 1 person landed a municipal job with the City of Toronto. Maybe 10% of my class landed jobs with the the MAG and other provincial agencies and crown corporations. 

If you want to have different options available to you, and are open to practicing law in the private sector, then going to law school may be worth it. But if you are in a comfortable government position, and want to continue working in the government or public sector generally after law school, then pursuing a law degree may not be worth it. Layman's prestige does not matter when you have invested 3 or more years, and tens of thousands of dollars, into this process. Only you get to live with the consequences of your choices, and you have to be good with the fact that things may not work out the way you intended. "Law" is not as glamorous as people outside this field perceive it to be. 

[Bottlebottle]

24 minutes ago, Deadpool said:

I don't know. This sounds more like the "grass is greener on the other side" talking. There are many lawyers that leave the practice of law to pursue various government jobs. I have seen lawyers with SCC clerkships and ivy league credentials pursue government policy positions. They still have the title of saying they are a "lawyer", but they are employed in positions that you do not need a law degree for. Getting legal positions in the government, especially in the federal government, is not at all easy. Out of my graduating class of ~300 students, less than 5 people did it. Only 1 person landed a municipal job with the City of Toronto. Maybe 10% of my class landed jobs with the the MAG and other provincial agencies and crown corporations. 

If you want to have different options available to you, and are open to practicing law in the private sector, then going to law school may be worth it. But if you are in a comfortable government position, and want to continue working in the government or public sector generally after law school, then pursuing a law degree may not be worth it. Layman's prestige does not matter when you have invested 3 or more years, and tens of thousands of dollars, into this process. Only you get to live with the consequences of your choices, and you have to be good with the fact that things may not work out the way you intended. "Law" is not as glamorous as people outside this field perceive it to be. 

Sure, I can agree with some of your points. I think it comes down to the type of person you are and ultimately, your goals. Most managers and directors I deal with had aspirations for law  school. They either didn’t have the grades / LSAT score for it, or simply chose to stay with the government for job security/ comfort.  When I ask most of them, they say I wish I had pursued my dreams of law school. Sure, it may be the classic “grass is greener”, but you can really see the regret in their faces. (Side note: one director I spoke with said she contemplated going back to law school for over 10 years during her gov job, and said she just grew complacent) I think there is a sense of not reaching your “REAL” potential in these gov jobs. With this being said, if you’re a woman and want to have a family someday, these jobs are UNPARALLELED to private law / big law. Just comes down to what you’re looking for. 

[erin otoole]

35 minutes ago, Deadpool said:

I don't know. This sounds more like the "grass is greener on the other side" talking. There are many lawyers that leave the practice of law to pursue various government jobs.

Regret is always worse than rejection. I speak to a number of my friends in their late 20s that are settling down and ask me about law school. They never applied and regret it, I can't imagine what it must feel like to give up on the "dream" of law school to get a safe job out of undergrad. Its funny considering how successful my friends are, many make more than I will be articling, but I guess they don't get to have "JD" at the end of their emails. 

TLDR, not grass is greener, but deep rooted regret. 

[Bottlebottle]

14 minutes ago, erin otoole said:

Regret is always worse than rejection. I speak to a number of my friends in their late 20s that are settling down and ask me about law school. They never applied and regret it, I can't imagine what it must feel like to give up on the "dream" of law school to get a safe job out of undergrad. Its funny considering how successful my friends are, many make more than I will be articling, but I guess they don't get to have "JD" at the end of their emails. 

TLDR, not grass is greener, but deep rooted regret. 

^ This is what I was trying to portray. Speaking with a lot of them, I always ask what their journey was and how they got to their positions. 99% of them say, “well I wanted to go to law school”. Then they all follow with a similar story, about how the job offer and benefits were too good to resist.

obviously, many of them are not cut out for law and made the right decision. Working in gov over several years can make you complacent. There are no real deadlines, the culture is extremely laidback, and you are not dealing with the brightest minds. And that’s me being polite. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Shasha22

[GGrievous]

5 minutes ago, Shasha22 said:

You can visibly SEE the regret, and shame, and regret in their faces. It’s heartbreaking. 

I wonder how non-lawyer peasants even get up in the morning. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Barry

[Deadpool]

19 minutes ago, Shasha22 said:

^ This is what I was trying to portray. Speaking with a lot of them, I always ask what their journey was and how they got to their positions. 99% of them say, “well I wanted to go to law school”. Then they all follow with a similar story, about how the job offer and benefits were too good to resist. And then they ALL go on a tangent about how they wonder if things would be different. You can visibly SEE the regret, and shame, and regret in their faces. It’s heartbreaking. 
 

obviously, many of them are not cut out for law and made the right decision. Working in gov over several years can make you complacent. There are no real deadlines, the culture is extremely laidback, and you are not dealing with the brightest minds. And that’s me being polite. 

I don't disagree with your core points. But just saying, law school and the legal profession can be very hard personally and emotionally. Lawyers have some of the highest levels of mental illness out of any profession. If one can settle for a job that has good benefits, job security, comfort, a laidback culture, fewer short-term deadlines, above average salary, and an "easy life", then I think that regardless of the regrets, they've essentially made it. This is the kind of lifestyle that many people seek out as they get older, but cannot find. People need to weigh both sides of the coin and make an informed choice. My experience in the government has largely been on the legal team, so I don't know how people feel about law school and lawyers in the other departments. This is certainly interesting to hear, because I often hear lawyers saying that they should have just done a master's degree and went into the government, instead of going to law school.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Deadpool

[Twenty]

22 hours ago, Deadpool said:

...

Professional ambition - especially if it costs one their social, emotional, and physical well-being - is extremly overrated. Society has a very unhealthy relationship with success. 

I understand how others may feel regret about not going to law school. FOMO is a thing. But yeah, the legal profession is problematic on several fronts. 🙂 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Twenty

[pm200890]

On 12/11/2021 at 8:03 PM, Shasha22 said:

obviously, many of them are not cut out for law and made the right decision. Working in gov over several years can make you complacent. There are no real deadlines, the culture is extremely laidback, and you are not dealing with the brightest minds. And that’s me being polite. 

My apologies for reviving this thread, but thought I'd add my two cents on this point. For context, I've worked as an economist/analyst in multiple government departments and at various levels of government. 

Work culture/pace varies vastly based on the Ministry, role, and team that you're in. Central agencies (TBS, Finance, and PCO), for instance, are notoriously well known for being fast-paced and having extremely tight timelines. Given their role as advisors to the PM/MoF/President of the TB, they often find themselves addressing national emergencies, or, supporting the development of consequential/major programs/policies. This is true for a vast majority of teams with analysts/economists in these departments.

You'll find a similar, if not more, of a tight-deadline oriented role in PHAC, HC, and the provincial Ministries of Health at the moment, with many employees suffering from severe burnout given the prolonged nature of the current crisis. Departments supporting major programs (eg: ESDC, ECCC, etc.), find themselves equally pressed on time. 
Note: As alluded to above, there is also heterogeneity within departments that might not -prima facie- strike one as being necessarily "busy".

In terms of work culture, I have to strongly disagree with the comment about "not dealing with the brightest minds" and "being extremely laid back". With respect, you're placing an awful amount of credence in the intellectual abilities of law students/lawyers. There is no shortage of motivated high achievers and bright minds in government. I've had the opportunity of working with individuals with backgrounds with graduate degrees from OxCam/HYS/notable domestic programs/institutions in the quant-heavy (econ, stats, math), science, and non-quant fields. I've also -and this is for your intellectually-localized fetish- had senior management who were were Rhodes Scholars. Needless to say, many of these folks could've quite easily found themselves getting paid major $$$ in the private sector. But, inter alia, government work carried a certain level of prestige and influence that drew them to the industry. This is particularly true if you find yourself in a central agency and/or dealing with a high profile file. 

All in all, "government work" is an rather broad umbrella, with employees performing a myriad of functions, across a wide range of departments. There are some instances where the role + work culture is incredibly stimulating, and may perhaps compete with job satisfaction levels in the legal field. There are others where it isn't. But to perpetuate the stereotype that government employees are lazy slobs working in an environment conducive for sloths is an awfully flippant mischaracterization. 

[CleanHands]

On 12/26/2021 at 6:56 PM, pm200890 said:

In terms of work culture, I have to strongly disagree with the comment about "not dealing with the brightest minds" and "being extremely laid back". With respect, you're placing an awful amount of credence in the intellectual abilities of law students/lawyers. There is no shortage of motivated high achievers and bright minds in government.

OP is talking about a law enforcement job. There is absolutely a "shortage of motivated high achievers and bright minds" in that sphere. And there are virtually no LEOs with "graduate degrees from OxCam/HYS/notable domestic programs/institutions in the quant-heavy (econ, stats, math), science, and non-quant fields."

I worked in corrections and was surrounded by the dumbest group of people I've ever met (with a few notable exceptions here and there) there, on a daily basis. I could feel my brain atrophying having to interact with those people. They were also (again with a few notable exceptions here and there) by and large complete assholes and sadists with extremely bent moral compasses. And the dumbest and worst people there were the ones getting promoted to supervisory and specialized roles, because the upper ranks were already filled with people like that from back in the day and they promoted and rewarded people like themselves.

Peace officer work involving actual investigations and interaction with the public did involve a higher caliber peer group, both intellectually and ethically (this is not to say they were all fantastic people; more that it was a mixed bag of people who were generally closer to average than subnormal). But it also still involved working with a lot of people who would be incapable of becoming lawyers. And half of them would spend half of every shift hanging around Tim Hortons and shooting the shit on the government dime, reinforcing the stereotype of lazy government employees that you found so offensive.

I don't know where OP's job offer would fall between those two possibilities. But getting to work with intelligent people who treat me with respect is a night and day difference from that 80-IQ high school locker room environment of corrections, and is a step up from even the relatively good LEO environments I was exposed to. This is not to "plac[e] an awful amount of credence in the intellectual abilities of law students/lawyers," although I have had mostly positive experiences with those people. It's more to say that there are some really shitty fields full of really dumb and/or unethical people out there, and yes, working for and with a better class of people does improve one's life.

ETA - I wholeheartedly agree with your last paragraph but I want to emphasize that the OP is very likely talking about the less impressive end of the "rather broad umbrella" you refer to.

Edited January 7, 2022 by CleanHands

[Ramesses]

Not sure if you are still following this OP, but if you want to chat, PM me.

I spent 5+ years working for the federal government and worked in two of the law enforcement agencies amongst others. 

[pm200890]

On 1/7/2022 at 10:34 AM, CleanHands said:

OP is talking about a law enforcement job. 

My comment was entirely in relation to the quoted post, and was primarily addressing the generalization made about PS jobs. 

None of what you said is out-of-step with what I highlighted - the PS employs 4M people, and the jobs cover a wide spectrum of roles, so it's fairly obvious that there may be some occupations that are unfulfilling.

I'll concede that your post may be of better utility to OP. But OP wasn't in my mind when writing the post. I'm not a fan of people casually shitting on the PS.