Thoughts on a dual JD/MA program?

[Rashabon]

15 minutes ago, LegalPerson said:

Oh I still disagree with your interpretation, but I don't think it's totally unreasonable. Whereas you joined in this thread and immediately started putting words into my mouth with reckless abandon

Also I love the "kiddo". It's funny imagining some dude on the other side imagining that he's older and wiser than me

Then we don't have much further to discuss because it's patently obvious Deadpool wasn't making the claim that, e.g., an undergraduate biology degree is more competitive than a philosophy PhD. I don't have much to say to someone who can't admit when they are obviously wrong.

[LegalPerson]

2 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

Then we don't have much further to discuss because it's patently obvious Deadpool wasn't making the claim that, e.g., an undergraduate biology degree is more competitive than a philosophy PhD. I don't have much to say to someone who can't admit when they are obviously wrong.

Great, I don't have much to say to someone who's not willing to apply the same principles of interpretive charity he's accusing me of failing to live up to (because I didn't accuse Deadpool of saying that either)

Edited November 20, 2021 by LegalPerson

[Avatar Aang]

@LegalPerson and @Ben are likely the same person. They both created their accounts one day apart, both go to U of T law, both participated in the NYC recruit at the same time, both have the same posting style here, and both started flipping out over philosophy. @LegalPerson had one post on November 9, but has not been posting here regularly since August. However, they somehow thought to log in to respond to this very specific thread. @LegalPerson seems to have slipped when they said Deadpool quoted their post, as the quoted post was from @Ben their other handle. @LegalPersonalso said they "stood by that" in reference to a post that @Ben made earlier. 

Look, you got called out for your mixed messages and then jumped on another account to trash talk instead of clarifying your position. You may be an A student in law school, but you seriously lack emotional intelligence from what I am reading here. Academics become meaningless once you step out into the real world. You need to learn self awareness too.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Avatar Aang

[CleanHands]

Is this the worst thread ever on these forums? Or can someone think of one that topped it?

Threads dominated by arguments people had with @TheCryptozoologist were equally stupid but at least more entertaining.

[CleanHands]

5 hours ago, Rashabon said:

your inability to read contextual clues is impressive.

Also, what's with all the people on the forums who claim to have gotten top of the class JD grades while demonstrating an obvious lack of reading comprehension with every post they make here?

[QMT20]

5 hours ago, CleanHands said:

Also, what's with all the people on the forums who claim to have gotten top of the class JD grades while demonstrating an obvious lack of reading comprehension with every post they make here?

@LegalPerson said they were going through the NY 2L recruit back in June. I'm curious how a current 2L lined up an SCC clerkship when the earliest time for them to interview isn't until February 2022. 

Not saying I question your grades but the timing just seems weird. There's a difference between currently going through the process of applying for an appellate/SCC clerkship and actually securing one. Lots of students who are near the top of their class, even at U of T, don't secure them despite their grades and CVs are just as good as the people who do. You can think you're a lock and then not get it. That's especially so with the SCC because people are applying there with a previous appellate clerkship and sometimes a few years experience at a top firm or the Crown under their belt.  

I recall notnotadog on the old forum being a top student at U of T who struck out at ONCA and BCCA last year. 

[Pecan Boy]

8 hours ago, Avatar Aang said:

@LegalPerson and @Ben are likely the same person. They both created their accounts one day apart, both go to U of T law, both participated in the NYC recruit at the same time, both have the same posting style here, and both started flipping out over philosophy. @LegalPerson had one post on November 9, but has not been posting here regularly since August. However, they somehow thought to log in to respond to this very specific thread. @LegalPerson seems to have slipped when they said Deadpool quoted their post, as the quoted post was from @Ben their other handle. @LegalPersonalso said they "stood by that" in reference to a post that @Ben made earlier. 

Look, you got called out for your mixed messages and then jumped on another account to trash talk instead of clarifying your position. You may be an A student in law school, but you seriously lack emotional intelligence from what I am reading here. Academics become meaningless once you step out into the real world. You need to learn self awareness too.

lol they’re not the same person. Source: I know them both. Mods can easily verify this

[Rashabon]

1 minute ago, Pecan Boy said:

lol they’re not the same person. Source: I know them both. Mods can easily verify this

This is somehow the sadder revelation.

[Ben]

I can't believe I'm opening this thread again lol.

8 hours ago, Avatar Aang said:

@LegalPerson and @Ben are likely the same person. They both created their accounts one day apart, both go to U of T law, both participated in the NYC recruit at the same time, both have the same posting style here, and both started flipping out over philosophy. @LegalPerson had one post on November 9, but has not been posting here regularly since August. However, they somehow thought to log in to respond to this very specific thread. @LegalPerson seems to have slipped when they said Deadpool quoted their post, as the quoted post was from @Ben their other handle. @LegalPersonalso said they "stood by that" in reference to a post that @Ben made earlier. 

Look, you got called out for your mixed messages and then jumped on another account to trash talk instead of clarifying your position. You may be an A student in law school, but you seriously lack emotional intelligence from what I am reading here. Academics become meaningless once you step out into the real world. You need to learn self awareness too.

Lol, nice work, detective. It absolutely rules that you took the time to sift through both our posts at 3 in the morning and came to this conclusion without ever considering the possibility that we just know each other IRL. We probably created our accounts a day apart because that's when this board opened and the old one shut down - you'll notice that basically all this site's regular posters have June 6/7th registration dates. The admins say all the time that we would be caught using multiple accounts - I'm sure one of them (maybe the one who posted in here) would have noticed if the most active thread of the day involved me doing that. I messaged @LegalPerson to check out the thread because of how funny some of the exchanges were, most notably when I was told that you can get into decent PhD programs with a B average. 

7 hours ago, CleanHands said:

Also, what's with all the people on the forums who claim to have gotten top of the class JD grades while demonstrating an obvious lack of reading comprehension with every post they make here?

The issue here wasn't reading comprehension. It's that you and your friends wanted to argue with me because I argued with you, and it's as simple as that. I have no idea why else a group of people with zero experience in the field we were discussing would have been so eager to get in on the action.

Just so we're all clear, this all started because you told someone who mentioned that they have an interest in academia and hope a JD would keep that door open that you "generally advise everyone not to go into a JD program with the intentions of pursuing academia (and not to consider that a potential career option unless and until they have achieved top tier JD grades)." You shouldn't be "generally advising" people with an interest in academia about anything, because you don't know anything about it. You accused me of strawmanning you. You are a strawman. You have no knowledge or experience in this field and are handing out advice on it anyway. So I stepped in to explain that actually, a JD is a great path to the academic humanities, given the massive gulf in alternative employment prospects for unsuccessful legal academics compared to unsuccessful academics in other fields. You can give any of your favourite profs from law school a call and ask them about that, if you don't want to take my word for it.

I added that anyone who is put off legal academia by the fact that "nearly every legal academic was a JD medalist (or close to it), SCC clerk, HYS or Oxbridge grad degree holder, etc" should be equally put off of other paths to success in the academic humanities. Actually, what I said was "if you can’t pull the JD grades for appellate clerkships, you’re probably not someone who has a legitimate shot at the kind of PhD programs that place their students well in the academic job market." Anyone who knows what's involved in applying to schools that fit this description would agree with me. 

Things went totally off the rails when someone replied that "getting appellate and SCC clerkships is more difficult than getting into a good PhD program." For one thing, I'm skeptical that that's true, but regardless it's not really a response to what I said. The point I was making was not "you are guaranteed to be able to get an appellate clerkship if you can get into good PhD programs." It was "if the need for an appellate clerkship to succeed in legal academia strikes you as a strong deterrent and a possibility ruled out ex ante, you probably don't have the chops for a strong PhD program." Anyone who (ludicrously and uncharitably) read me as making any specific claim about the relative difficulty of those two achievements should have realized that I was actually saying this once I clarified it in exactly these words on page one of this thread. Instead, because you guys are all friends, this turned into a circus. 

This is a bunch of people with zero knowledge or experience in the academic humanities arguing with people who do. Sorry. That's it. I will happily defer to any number of you on the criminal law, mergers and acquisitions, whatever. I don't pretend to be an authority on any of those things. You should stick to things you know about, like being rude to 20 year olds who ask basic questions about the law school application process, and comparing an internet forum you post a lot in to a biker bar. 

[LegalPerson]

6 minutes ago, Ben said:

I can't believe I'm opening this thread again lol.

Lol, nice work, detective. It absolutely rules that you took the time to sift through both our posts at 3 in the morning and came to this conclusion without ever considering the possibility that we just know each other IRL. We probably created our accounts a day apart because that's when this board opened and the old one shut down - you'll notice that basically all this site's regular posters have June 6/7th registration dates. The admins say all the time that we would be caught using multiple accounts - I'm sure one of them (maybe the one who posted in here) would have noticed if the most active thread of the day involved me doing that. I messaged @LegalPerson to check out the thread because of how funny some of the exchanges were, most notably when I was told that you can get into decent PhD programs with a B average. 

The issue here wasn't reading comprehension. It's that you and your friends wanted to argue with me because I argued with you, and it's as simple as that. I have no idea why else a group of people with zero experience in the field we were discussing would have been so eager to get in on the action.

Just so we're all clear, this all started because you told someone who mentioned that they have an interest in academia and hope a JD would keep that door open that you "generally advise everyone not to go into a JD program with the intentions of pursuing academia (and not to consider that a potential career option unless and until they have achieved top tier JD grades)." You shouldn't be "generally advising" people with an interest in academia about anything, because you don't know anything about it. You accused me of strawmanning you. You are a strawman. You have no knowledge or experience in this field and are handing out advice on it anyway. So I stepped in to explain that actually, a JD is a great path to the academic humanities, given the massive gulf in alternative employment prospects for unsuccessful legal academics compared to unsuccessful academics in other fields. You can give any of your favourite profs from law school a call and ask them about that, if you don't want to take my word for it.

I added that anyone who is put off legal academia by the fact that "nearly every legal academic was a JD medalist (or close to it), SCC clerk, HYS or Oxbridge grad degree holder, etc" should be equally put off of other paths to success in the academic humanities. Actually, what I said was "if you can’t pull the JD grades for appellate clerkships, you’re probably not someone who has a legitimate shot at the kind of PhD programs that place their students well in the academic job market." Anyone who knows what's involved in applying to schools that fit this description would agree with me. 

Things went totally off the rails when someone replied that "getting appellate and SCC clerkships is more difficult than getting into a good PhD program." For one thing, I'm skeptical that that's true, but regardless it's not really a response to what I said. The point I was making was not "you are guaranteed to be able to get an appellate clerkship if you can get into good PhD programs." It was "if the need for an appellate clerkship to succeed in legal academia strikes you as a strong deterrent and a possibility ruled out ex ante, you probably don't have the chops for a strong PhD program." Anyone who (ludicrously and uncharitably) read me as making any specific claim about the relative difficulty of those two achievements should have realized that I was actually saying this once I clarified it in exactly these words on page one of this thread. Instead, because you guys are all friends, this turned into a circus. 

This is a bunch of people with zero knowledge or experience in the academic humanities arguing with people who do. Sorry. That's it. I will happily defer to any number of you on the criminal law, mergers and acquisitions, whatever. I don't pretend to be an authority on any of those things. You should stick to things you know about, like being rude to 20 year olds who ask basic questions about the law school application process, and comparing an internet forum you post a lot in to a biker bar. 

As @Ben, I endorse this

[CrimeAndPunishment]

@CleanHands  @Rashabon I'm sending in my applications this month for law programs and I'm also applying for some masters programs, I was wondering if you guys had any advice of how much these MA's and MSc programs might affect my employment search. First, if I make some typos excuse me, I fell asleep at 6am last night and barely slept. I would like to be lawyer but I am worried that I might be among the 40% of men that leave within 5 years. Because of this possibility I would like to get a masters degree in case that happens and hope that it also has the benefit of me possibly being hired by a larger firm when I do become a lawyer (assuming I get in, which I think I should since my GPA is 3.94 for undergrad). I am applying for Masters of Economics programs at Queens, McGill, Calgary and Alberta, I'm applying for law programs for Calgary, Alberta and TRU. I'm applying to UBC for MSc in Business Administration with a specialization in Finance (it is a research program that could lead to a PhD in Finance if I did well, though I don't think I would go that route), I'm applying to Calgary for their mathematical Finance program, and to HEC for Financial Engineering. The job prospects of all the masters degrees I am applying for seem pretty good, however, I was wondering what fields in Law they might give me a leg up on? I am interested in Tax and Corporate (though that could change if I get into law school after 1L) so far, also would some big law firms look at those masters programs and be more likely to hire me because they like my skill set? If so, would it increase my chances of getting into big law by an appreciable amount?

 

Edit: Also do you think doing something like the CFA (Chartered Financial Analyst) or FRM (Financial Risk Manager) would make me more attractive for employers?

Edited November 20, 2021 by CrimeAndPunishment

[Thrive92]

Just now, LegalPerson said:

As @Ben, I endorse this

 

6 minutes ago, Ben said:

Lol, nice work, detective. It absolutely rules that you took the time to sift through both our posts at 3 in the morning and came to this conclusion without ever considering the possibility that we just know each other IRL. We probably created our accounts a day apart because that's when this board opened and the old one shut down - you'll notice that basically all this site's regular posters have June 6/7th registration dates. The admins say all the time that we would be caught using multiple accounts - I'm sure one of them (maybe the one who posted in here) would have noticed if the most active thread of the day involved me doing that. I messaged @LegalPerson to check out the thread because of how funny some of the exchanges were, most notably when I was told that you can get into decent PhD programs with a B average. 

[Pendragon]

@Ben, so basically, you are confirming that you WERE talking about academic humanities and the academic job market, and not strictly legal academia as your friend @LegalPerson spent pages here saying. You never thought to step in and correct this? I like how a bunch of U of T law students who know each other in real life got their panties in a knot over a simple issue. Just because you guys have experience in philosophy PhD programs, does not mean that no one else here has gotten a graduate degree or looked into graduate admissions. Get fuckin real. Plenty of people go to law school now with graduate degrees. You are not unique in this regard. This whole philosophy discussion was meaningless because someone already said it was a difficult program very early on in the thread, but you guys still could not let that go and sidetracked this conversation. 

Outside of PhD in philosophy, plenty of people here already confirmed you can get into decent PhD programs with B averages, like science PhDs at U of T. Don't try to silence this conversation because these posts go against what you are telling us now. Not every academic humanities program has the same requirements, as Oxford philosophy PhDs. You can do a PhD in women's studies from an ivy league school with far less competitive admissions. Generally speaking, you need to be in the top 10% of your class IN law school to even interview successfully for appellate and SCC clerkships. You and your friends may be in the top 10% in law school, but please stop acting like this is the case for everyone. Being in the top 10% of your undergraduate/master's class with a 3.9+ GPA and writing a good writing sample is a far easier endeavour. Not to mention the fact that you are 2L students who have not even interviewed for clerkships yet. 

[Ben]

@Pendragon lol, sorry pal, I wasn't in front of my computer for most of Friday night. I carried on the above discussion under the plausible assumption that someone considering a career in legal academia sees their alternatives as being basically philosophy, political theory/science, or economics. You are quite right that nothing I said has any bearing on someone who's really struggling with whether to head for an SJD or a PhD in molecular biology. 

Quote

Being in the top 10% of your undergraduate/master's class with a 3.9+ GPA and writing a good writing sample is a far easier endeavour. 

No it isn't, actually, which is what the people who have done both keep telling you. It's nice of you to throw your hat in the ring as, like, the fifth lawyer who takes a hard and fast position on an issue with no experience or knowledge of it at all. 

I have no idea why it would matter that we're 2L students who haven't interviewed for clerkships. Everyone agrees that you need to stand in the top 5-10% of your law school class to be competitive for clerkships, which is the only data point relevant for comparison purposes here. 

In case the contrary impression is lurking in the background for you, I'm not here to flex either my pre-law school accomplishments or my law school grades. I know how hard the PhD application process not because I waltzed through it and turned down admissions to Harvard and Yale to go to law school, but because I got cut from all 15 of the programs I applied to. 

[Thrive92]

[Pendragon]

1 minute ago, Ben said:

@Pendragon lol, sorry pal, I wasn't in front of my computer for most of Friday night. I carried on the above discussion under the plausible assumption that someone considering a career in legal academia sees their alternatives as being basically philosophy, political theory/science, or economics. You are quite right that nothing I said has any bearing on someone who's really struggling with whether to head for an SJD or a PhD in molecular biology. 

No it isn't, actually, which is what the people who have done both keep telling you. It's nice of you to throw your hat in the ring as, like, the fifth lawyer who takes a hard and fast position on an issue with no experience or knowledge of it at all. 

I have no idea why it would matter that we're 2L students who haven't interviewed for clerkships. Everyone agrees that you need to stand in the top 5-10% of your law school class to be competitive for clerkships, which is the only data point relevant for comparison purposes here. 

In case the contrary impression is lurking in the background for you, I'm not here to flex either my pre-law school accomplishments or my law school grades. I know how hard the PhD application process not because I waltzed through it and turned down admissions to Harvard and Yale to go to law school, but because I got cut from all 15 of the programs I applied to. 

What are you talking about? I saw you following this conversation and liking your friend's posts in this thread as they were being posted. You were definitely on here Friday night watching this circus play out. 

Dude, stop extrapolating your experiences applying to one PhD program at competitive universities as the norm for ALL academic humanities programs. I know a number of people that got into programs like political science, labour studies, gender studies, history, music, french, etc. with average to above average undergrad grades. Some of these people I know dropped out of their PhD programs midway to go to law school. Like I said, most programs are not as difficult to get into as philosophy PhD programs at U of T and Oxford. If you were specifically talking about philosophy, economics, economics, etc., you should have point blank mentioned this at the beginning. And please...PhD in political science is dime a dozen and not that difficult to get into. I'm sure you are now going to say that your experience in a philosophy program carries over to these other programs too? 

[Renerik]

4 minutes ago, Thrive92 said:

Not sure what thread you're reading. Most fun I had here was checking IPs for duplicate accounts.

[Ben]

4 minutes ago, Pendragon said:

What are you talking about? I saw you following this conversation and liking your friend's posts in this thread as they were being posted. You were definitely on here Friday night watching this circus play out. 

Dude, stop extrapolating your experiences applying to one PhD program at competitive universities as the norm for ALL academic humanities programs. I know a number of people that got into programs like political science, labour studies, gender studies, history, music, french, etc. with average to above average undergrad grades. Some of these people I know dropped out of their PhD programs midway to go to law school. Like I said, most programs are not as difficult to get into as philosophy PhD programs at U of T and Oxford. If you were specifically talking about philosophy, economics, economics, etc., you should have point blank mentioned this at the beginning. And please...PhD in political science is dime a dozen and not that difficult to get into. I'm sure you are now going to say that your experience in a philosophy program carries over to these other programs too? 

The very first post I made was about "... the kind of PhD programs that place their students well in the academic job market," so that gets us to basically the top 12-15 programs in the English-speaking world in whatever field you like. I'm happy to concede that nothing I have said applies to someone whose alternative to legal academia is a PhD in music theory or French, if that makes you happy. Nor does it apply to someone who wants to do a PhD at an unranked institution that doesn't place its students anywhere. 

It's cool that you know a bunch of people with average to above average undergrad grades who got into PhD programs in six different fields, by the way!

 

[Pendragon]

Just now, Ben said:

The very first post I made was about "... the kind of PhD programs that place their students well in the academic job market," so that gets us to basically the top 12-15 programs in the English-speaking world in whatever field you like. I'm happy to concede that nothing I have said applies to someone whose alternative to legal academia is a PhD in music theory or French, if that makes you happy. Nor does it apply to someone who wants to do a PhD at an unranked institution that doesn't place its students anywhere. 

It's cool that you know a bunch of people with average to above average undergrad grades who got into PhD programs in six different fields, by the way!

 

What are these programs? Would have been helpful to mention what these programs were instead of assuming that everyone here knew about them already. There was a lot of misunderstanding in this thread that could have been cleared up this way.

[GGrievous]

12 minutes ago, Pendragon said:

What are these programs?

In fairness to @Ben I think somewhere in this cluster-fuck, either he or his other half did mention the kinds. I think it was like NYU philosophy. I could be wrong and don't care to check though. I don't really get this debate though. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Barry

[CrimeAndPunishment]

I hate to get dragged into this conversation but I would think that generally the top are MIT, Princeton, Harvard, Oxford, Stanford, London School of Economics, Cambridge, Columbia, you get the drift. Of course there are exceptions depending on field, so finance you'd add in Zurich and Baruch, NYU, for science, schools like Caltech, UCLA. To anyone that gets into these top programs I would say congratulations! I would say the same for anyone that got a clerk position with SCC. Both are extremely competitive and seem to require different skillsets depending on the field, for Economics PhD you basically have to be able to get a masters in Math to get into the top institutions, my best friend got into Cambridge for his Masters but he is the smartest person I know. I was going to apply for a MSc in Finance at LSE but it's so competitive I know I won't get in as a lot of people doing finance have Physics, Engineering and Math undergrads, masters or PhDs.

Edited November 20, 2021 by CrimeAndPunishment

[Pendragon]

10 minutes ago, CrimeAndPunishment said:

I hate to get dragged into this conversation but I would think that generally the top are MIT, Princeton, Harvard, Oxford, Stanford, London School of Economics, Cambridge, Columbia, you get the drift. Of course there are exceptions depending on field, so finance you'd add in Zurich and Baruch, NYU, for science, schools like Caltech, UCLA. To anyone that gets into these top programs I would say congratulations! I would say the same for anyone that got a clerk position with SCC. Both are extremely competitive and seem to require different skillsets depending on the field, for Economics PhD you basically have to be able to get a masters in Math to get into the top institutions, my best friend got into Cambridge for his Masters but he is the smartest person I know. I was going to apply for a MSc in Finance at LSE but it's so competitive I know I won't get in as a lot of people doing finance have Physics, Engineering and Math undergrads, masters or PhDs.

Would you consider any Canadian universities in this too?

[CrimeAndPunishment]

20 minutes ago, Pendragon said:

Would you consider any Canadian universities in this too?

Not generally but definitely in certain fields. So if you want to do Artificial Intelligence or Petroleum Engineering apparently University of Alberta is one of the best places to be in the world. UBC, U of T, Queens, McGill have some top notch programs and I don't want to make it seem like I'm putting them down because I'm not. As someone who went to U of T and is finishing with a degree in finance and economics I certainly understand the prestige hunting. The fields of Finance and Economics are very much based on prestige, much more so than other disciplines. I will admit because of my undergraduate background I certainly have a bias toward American schools and that is mainly because in the fields that I am studying America is seen to have better schools for these areas. I'm applying to Queens for a Master in Economics and I will probably get in, it's a very good school and something like 10-15% of the class gets hired to hedge funds and others go and get good asset management jobs, lot of opportunity with the Bank of Canada, Ministry of Finance etc. However, as much as I would love to be a Queens alumni it's not an MIT or Princeton. There's nothing wrong with that, I'm just not at that level, regardless Canada offers very good levels of Education and I'll be very proud when I get a Canadian MA or law degree. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by CrimeAndPunishment

[CleanHands]

1 hour ago, CrimeAndPunishment said:

@CleanHands  @Rashabon -Snip-

I'm flattered to be tagged but I'm really sorry that I can't be of help with your questions, per what @Rashabon wrote about staying in one's lane in the first page. I don't know anything about BigLaw, finance, business, economics, etc.

Good luck and I hope someone more knowledgeable about this can give you the info you need.

[CrimeAndPunishment]

1 minute ago, CleanHands said:

I'm flattered to be tagged but I'm really sorry that I can't be of help with your questions, per what @Rashabon wrote about staying in one's lane in the first page. I don't know anything about BigLaw, finance, business, economics, etc.

Good luck and I hope someone more knowledgeable about this can give you the info you need.

No worries, thanks for your reply I appreciate it. I guess I've been a little stressed this month and have been thinking about this stuff almost non-stop so I really wanted to hear someone else's opinion.