Overperformed on the LSAT. Should I look at HYS? Am I competitive there? [175, 3.91 cGPA, 3.93 L2, 3.94 B3]

[Pendragon]

19 minutes ago, Marco said:

How many years does one have to work in biglaw (US or Canadian) before quality exit opportunities materialize (in-house? other work with better work life balance?)

I've been thinking about the separation aspect and it might not be as dire as I was fearing. By the time I finish uni, my parent will be nearing retirement age. They don't make much money in the first place and given what I've seen of US biglaw salaries, I could probably support a bit earlier of a retirement for them? It also shouldn't be too hard to bring them over to visit temporarily in phases either, since there aren't any VISA hurdles for Canadians. They don't have strong attachments in Canada that would pin them down here besides me.

5-7 years typically. More in-house departments are hiring juniors with 1-5 years experience, but I wouldn't say these are all quality jobs. The skills you get in-house are limited, as a lot of your focus is on non-legal aspects like business development; you are more of a generalist in these settings, so it can limit your prospects if you wanted to leave and work at a firm or a different in-house employer.

[SlytherinLLP]

8 minutes ago, Pendragon said:

5-7 years typically. More in-house departments are hiring juniors with 1-5 years experience, but I wouldn't say these are all quality jobs. The skills you get in-house are limited, as a lot of your focus is on non-legal aspects like business development; you are more of a generalist in these settings, so it can limit your prospects if you wanted to leave and work at a firm or a different in-house employer.

That is definitely not what I've seen from my network. Associates with 2-3 years of experience are leaving BigLaw in droves and heading to quality in-house positions. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by SlytherinLLP

[Pendragon]

4 minutes ago, SlytherinLLP said:

That is definitely not what I've seen from my network. Associates with 2-3 years of experience are leaving BigLaw in droves and heading to quality in-house positions. 

I see people mostly doing that with insurance companies. The quality postings I've seen asked for mid-level to senior lawyers. A lot of new lawyers have been going in-house to smaller companies and start-ups though. But if you're lookin at the largest Canadian and US companies, they are not hiring junior lawyers as in-house counsel for the most part.

https://companiesmarketcap.com/canada/largest-companies-in-canada-by-market-cap/ 

[Conge]

On 12/3/2021 at 3:17 PM, Pendragon said:

5-7 years typically. More in-house departments are hiring juniors with 1-5 years experience, but I wouldn't say these are all quality jobs. The skills you get in-house are limited, as a lot of your focus is on non-legal aspects like business development; you are more of a generalist in these settings, so it can limit your prospects if you wanted to leave and work at a firm or a different in-house employer.

I'm in-house. I would say most of this comment isn't accurate. Unless looking for a general counsel, legal departments are typically looking for strong associates in the 3-5 year range. Also, in-house lawyers are not typically expected to do business development (I've never heard of it). You are expected to have non-legal skills/skills that are not typically developed in a law firm, but business development isn't one of them.

It's true that not all in-house positions are "quality jobs". I wouldn't want to be the sole general counsel to a small/medium sized business, for example, but those aren't typically the jobs available to lawyers with 3-5 years of transactional experience at a large firm, for example.

[Chemistry124]

On 12/2/2021 at 7:32 PM, CrimeAndPunishment said:

I would apply to Columbia and NYU, you should get in and I heard that there is about a 70% chance of getting a big law job paying $140,000 or more. Now I’m not sure but this is what I heard, they are both in Manhattan so it would be easy to go to interviews there.

Went to 1 of the 2. Both schools have had ~high 80s-95% OCI success rate in recent years. The US biglaw scale is now up to 205k USD base salary for first-years. This year's first-year bonuses are 12k special and 20k USD year-end.

Still, OP shouldn't go to an American school if he is not willing to work a few years in the States. The cost (before scholarships) and opportunity cost of not being able to establish a Canadian network are not worth it if he returns to Canada immediately after graduation. Getting US biglaw experience will more than compensate for any prospective Canadian (biglaw) employer's requirements of "Canadian experience".

Edited December 6, 2021 by Chemistry124

[Marco]

9 hours ago, Chemistry124 said:

Went to 1 of the 2. Both schools have had ~high 80s-95% OCI success rate in recent years. The US biglaw scale is now up to 205k USD base salary for first-years. This year's first-year bonuses are 12k special and 20k USD year-end.

Still, OP shouldn't go to an American school if he is not willing to work a few years in the States. The cost (before scholarships) and opportunity cost of not being able to establish a Canadian network are not worth it if he returns to Canada immediately after graduation. Getting US biglaw experience will more than compensate for any prospective Canadian (biglaw) employer's requirements of "Canadian experience".

Is there any bias against Canadian nationals at OCI's? Do firms have to support your stay in the US for you practice there? If so, will that limit my flexibility to leave for another US biglaw firm?

How many years of experience at US biglaw would be considered safe before a transition back to Canada?

Thanks for the insight.

[Chemistry124]

2 hours ago, Marco said:

Is there any bias against Canadian nationals at OCI's? Do firms have to support your stay in the US for you practice there? If so, will that limit my flexibility to leave for another US biglaw firm?

How many years of experience at US biglaw would be considered safe before a transition back to Canada?

Thanks for the insight.

During my OCI, there was less stigma against Canadians compared to other international students because of a lack of language/cultural divide. Also, we are not at the mercy of the H1-B visa lottery because we have the TN visa, which is renewable for 3 years indefinitely. However, it's non-immigrant intent (unlike the H1-B), so it's at the discretion of the border agent to assess whether he/she thinks you are trying to settle in the States. Usually fine for the first couple of times, but may be trickier afterwards.

Laterally to another US firm should not be an issue for either visas.

I'm not too familiar with going back to Canada. It shouldn't take that many years though. The usual trend, after talking to the other Canadian lawyers, is to get as big of a savings nest as possible before burnout. The salary difference actually becomes even bigger as time goes on.

[togetic]

There's definitely some things you should take here with a grain of salt, like I absolutely disagree that getting into Canadian "big law" from U of T is going to be as easy getting into American big law from any of the T6. If you go to a T6 you're basically guaranteed a big law job if you want one. Big law is simply the path of least resistance at those schools.

On whether you can come back to Canadian law and experience any kind of bump from HYS -- the bump you experience going to Bay Street from American big law is that you'll have American big law experience under your belt and that's not insignificant by any measure.

[Spreckles]

On 12/3/2021 at 2:17 PM, Pendragon said:

5-7 years typically. More in-house departments are hiring juniors with 1-5 years experience, but I wouldn't say these are all quality jobs. The skills you get in-house are limited, as a lot of your focus is on non-legal aspects like business development; you are more of a generalist in these settings, so it can limit your prospects if you wanted to leave and work at a firm or a different in-house employer.

Have to slightly disagree with this. Many companies now will only hire lawyers with previous in house experience. 

[linda]

If I graduate from Toronto and manages to go to a US law firm and ends up deciding to apply for an in-house position at a US company after a few years, will graduating from outside of the states become a disadvantage at that point?