Did anyone here completely screw up their first semester of 1L and then recover in the 2nd?

[GGrievous]

22 minutes ago, cherrytree said:

If you haven't heard of Justice Moldaver's story before:

From a Toronto Star profile published in 2011 https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2011/11/14/michael_moldavers_climb_to_top_court_had_bluecollar_beginnings.html?rf

The kind of Christmas miracle story I was looking for! Even if it was Moldaver

[PulpFiction]

@Barry Like some others have said, if your interest is criminal defence, then grades will not count nearly as much as demonstrated interest in the practice area via course selection and hands on experience. I had mediocre grades in law school, though I excelled in most criminal law courses. I also got a handful of Cs, spread out through all three years, mostly in courses that I took solely due to convenience for my schedule. What I found was, many defence firms did not even care to ask for my transcripts at the articling or associate interview stages. They asked which crim courses I took, during interviews, but did not ask anything about specific grades. My reference letters did mention my grades in some crim classes (crim pro, advanced crim law, trial advocacy), so maybe that was enough for them to get an idea. I wonder if they thought those grades were reflective of my overall transcript - jokes on them if that's the case. 

What went a long, long way for me was getting reference letters from a couple of my course instructors, who are also well-established criminal defence lawyers, and having them vouch for me in terms of academic ability and courtroom presence. Due to my involvement with the legal clinic, these instructors/lawyers often saw me in court and had no issue talking about it in my reference letters. I highly suggest taking courses with practitioners. Not only do they provide meaningful insight into your desired practice area, along with helpful practice tips, it's also one of the best ways to network with people who can open tons of doors for you come articling/associate job hunt time. 

Also, like @CleanHandssaid, it's unlikely you'll get a position at a top tier criminal defence firm without stellar grades. But it's not impossible. I'm currently an associate at one of these defence firms, and after I was successful in the process, I was told my interview along with clinic experience and strong references is what took me to the top of the list. I didn't article at one of these firms, so I can't say whether or not they'd ask for grades then, but I have a strong feeling they would and I probably wouldn't have made the cut. I'm currently surrounded by Osgoode, McGill, and UofT grads with impressive CVs, but I feel right at home with my background. No doubt there's an element of luck involved, because there's no way I was one of the sharpest candidates for the role, but the complete package was enough for them to pick me. If you build your profile in a way that speaks for itself - relevant courses, ECs, references - I bet you'll get some looks even as an average student. 

You haven't even written exams yet. Focus on doing as well as you can. When applying for these more known defence shops, I had this shitty feeling that they'd ask for my transcripts, see mediocre grades, then pass on me. This didn't throw me off much, but it was a lingering thought that took away from my focus on the interview. It's always better to go in with higher grades, there's literally no down side to it. Just don't feel so bad if you don't get them, there's tons of opportunities out there. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by PulpFiction

[GGrievous]

4 minutes ago, PulpFiction said:

--

Thank you for this! Getting this kind of advice from people doing what I want to do is truly awesome. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

As with Uriel, the stories of Moldaver’s demise have been greatly exaggerated. He failed a single fail-safe midterm examination in 1L and otherwise did well during that term. He then went on to *checks notes* win the gold medal at U of T by getting essentially straight As. 

As a general rule, if you hear a story about somebody whose career obviously involved excelling at school actually doing badly at school, it’s pretty likely they did not, in fact, so badly at school. 

[GGrievous]

Wouldn't be Christmas without Scrooge I guess. 

[CleanHands]

6 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

As with Uriel, the stories of Moldaver’s demise have been greatly exaggerated. He failed a single fail-safe midterm examination in 1L and otherwise did well during that term. He then went on to *checks notes* win the gold medal at U of T by getting essentially straight As. 

As a general rule, if you hear a story about somebody whose career obviously involved excelling at school actually doing badly at school, it’s pretty likely they did not, in fact, so badly at school. 

Damn dude, you are relentless with the reality checks. I appreciate it and apologize to those whose posts I "liked" and then felt compelled to withdraw said ratings from after you posted.

BTW similar myths have circulated around Kagan in the US. She got a B and a B- in her 1L midterms and consequentially has been cited as an example of law grades not mattering...despite ending up with As in 17 of the 21 courses she received letter grades for, and clerking with an appellate court and then SCOTUS right out of law school.

It's annoying that this stuff gets exaggerated so frequently and to such a degree.

[chaboywb]

9 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

As with Uriel, the stories of Moldaver’s demise have been greatly exaggerated. He failed a single fail-safe midterm examination in 1L and otherwise did well during that term. He then went on to *checks notes* win the gold medal at U of T by getting essentially straight As. 

As a general rule, if you hear a story about somebody whose career obviously involved excelling at school actually doing badly at school, it’s pretty likely they did not, in fact, so badly at school. 

"Law student SLAMMED by December mid-terms! You'll NEVER believe what happened next..."

[GGrievous]

So to sum up, I can fail 1 of my tests next week. 

[99problems]

Almost everyone has at least a C somewhere in their transcript. You should know that even for 2L summer jobs, you will have your second semester grades as well. So if you screwed up this semester, there is a chance of recovery as soon as this semester is over.

As others have mentioned, the most important grades for you are those that relate to your practice area. This is more so for smaller firms since top tier firms receive lots of applications, and as a result, they have to set the bar higher to filter applicants. One of my professors is the head of recruitment for this national firm, he told me that for their articling, they received 400 applications for one position [they usually just hire back their summer students, but one of them declined the offer].

Assuming that you end up with a B average as almost 40% of your cohort will, you need something else to distinguish yourself from the pack. Things such as clinical experience, volunteering, research assistantship, or anything else that can speak for your interest in and aptitude for, say, criminal law.

By the way, almost all of your peers are feeling the same—welcome to 1L.

13 minutes ago, Barry said:

So to sum up, I can fail 1 of my tests next week. 

You probably will since you are here instead of studying... just kidding, you'll be fine

[mistertubby]

2 hours ago, CleanHands said:

BTW similar myths have circulated around Kagan in the US. She got a B and a B- in her 1L midterms and consequentially has been cited as an example of law grades not mattering...despite ending up with As in 17 of the 21 courses she received letter grades for, and clerking with an appellate court and then SCOTUS right out of law school.

who tf is is using someone who graduates magna from HLS as an example of grades not mattering??

[CleanHands]

2 minutes ago, mistertubby said:

who tf is is using someone who graduates magna from HLS as an example of grades not mattering??

Yes, it's ridiculous. But don't blame me for being the messenger that people are spouting this nonsense.

Here's the first insipid blog post about it that I found within three seconds of googling: https://blogs.law.nyu.edu/lifeatnyulaw/why-elena-kagans-b-minus-didnt-matter-and-yours-shouldnt-either/
 

Quote

When I read that Elena Kagan earned a B-minus as a Harvard first-year, I had two reactions: I was surprised that she’d faltered early on, but I also was pleased that she seemed not to have let her grades define her as a law student or as a lawyer.

 

Quote

When I read that Elena Kagan earned a B-minus as a Harvard first-year, I had two reactions: I was surprised that she’d faltered early on, but I also was pleased that she seemed not to have let her grades define her as a law student or as a lawyer.

There are the takeaways from someone who received "still-respectable but not-markedly-improved results" at the end of 1L, comparing herself to Kagan because she got a B- once and claiming that the takeaway is that grades don't hold law students back.

I've seen virtually identical posts, from different authors, on Linkedin. And yeah, it's dishonest and irritating.

[efrefgg]

It's like that old myth they'd tell in elementary school about Einstein flunking out of school.

[Deadpool]

Another one that irritates me, which circulates among students outside the legal field, is that if Elon Musk can go to Queen's and succeed in the business entrepreneurial field, then so can anyone else. People make him out to be a Canadian success story. He apparently only came to Canada from South Africa, because it was easier to enter the US from Canada. People like to conveniently leave out the fact that after two years at Queen's, he transferred to the University of Pennsylvania and graduated with degrees in economics and physics. He had internships in Silicon Valley. He got accepted into a PhD in materials science program at Stanford, which he dropped out of after two days to launch a startup.

But none of this matters because Elon Musk went to Queen's and is a Canadian success story. If he did it, so can you and I! 

[123]

1 hour ago, Deadpool said:

Another one that irritates me, which circulates among students outside the legal field, is that if Elon Musk can go to Queen's and succeed in the business entrepreneurial field, then so can anyone else. People make him out to be a Canadian success story. He apparently only came to Canada from South Africa, because it was easier to enter the US from Canada. People like to conveniently leave out the fact that after two years at Queen's, he transferred to the University of Pennsylvania and graduated with degrees in economics and physics. He had internships in Silicon Valley. He got accepted into a PhD in materials science program at Stanford, which he dropped out of after two days to launch a startup.

But none of this matters because Elon Musk went to Queen's and is a Canadian success story. If he did it, so can you and I! 

People do the same thing with Dal alum. And sure everyone sees the glitz and glamour, but they forget: Peter Mackay didn’t just step out of Weldon and into a second place finish in the 2020 conservative leadership. He took a very nice military helicopter along the way.  

Edited December 4, 2021 by realpseudonym

[PzabbytheLawyer]

So unless this person was lying, and I have no reason to believe they were:

I know of an SCC clerk who said they did worse than the curve in every one of their 1L midterms, and then went to get nearly straight As the rest of their degree.

And no Blocked, this one wasn't one fail safe midterm. It was at least a few!

[ZukoJD]

I'll chime in here because I'm a neurotic 1L who seems to have gotten a better handle on things as the semester has progressed. 

Something I've noticed that helps quite a bit is having a routine. I go to bed at roughly the same time each night and I get up at roughly the same time every morning. First thing I try to do in the morning after eating is to get some sort of exercise in. It doesn't need to be anything crazy. Even a brisk walk around the neighbourhood is sufficient. Find a podcast you like, or a get a good playlist going and bundle up. The research shows that the retention benefits of working out are greater if you do it before you start studying or during the middle of studying. So that's something to keep in mind. 

Another change I found helpful is limiting social media usage. You can set limits on your apps or just temporarily deactivate your accounts. The less I distract myself with unimportant information the easier I find it to sit for long periods and focus on my studying. If you're interested there's a great book that goes into detail about this topic called Deep Work by Cal Newport. This helps with my anxiety because I know that at the end of the day, no matter what shortcomings I still may have, I really did do close to whatever my best is and that's reassuring. 

Changing these things and not all that much else has improved my anxiety a considerable amount and has helped make this whole experience tolerable. 

All the best my friend and remember you will almost certainly be a far, far better lawyer than Barry ever was. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by ZukoJD

[TobyFlenderson]

I had not so great December 1L marks. Nothing higher than a B-, but nothing lower than a C. I wasn’t super surprised. I didn’t feel prepared going in, and I felt not great coming out.

I was lucky, relatively speaking, that most schools went P/F in April because of COVID. But, because of this grading change, I received very little indication of how much I improved in April, although one exam ended up being identified as as a good one in an end of term email from the prof, so I know that something went right on that one. And I got a C on that midterm! I also felt better in most of my other classes, which was a nice change.

I started 2L kind of terrified, to be honest. I knew these grades would matter a lot for 2L summer/arricling because there were no 1L grades.

I ended up getting Bs. Some B-, some B+, but Bs. I’m an average student, despite my well below average start. I received an articling offer at my first choice in a relatively small market (certainly not like Toronto), and I’m on pace this year to do just as well, probably even a bit better.

All this to say, even if you come out of your midterms feeling bad about your performance, and you may not love your grades, it’s not the end of the world. Use it as a learning opportunity. Did you feel like you couldn’t spot the issue? Did you know the issue but had a hard time applying the law? Were your notes well organized and helpful? 

Do your best to study. Do your best to stay focused. Do your best to not psych yourself out. Most of all, do your best not to beat yourself up over it. Whether you come out of each exam feeling good or bad, clear your mind of it and move on the best you can. I know from experience that thinking about the last exam in the middle of the current one, like “bro you need to do well on this because the last one was bad and you can’t get two bad grades”, is not helpful.

You may surprise yourself, so keep an open mind and give it a good faith effort.

[Apple]

There's two things law students like to exaggerate: 

1. The importance of grades; and 
2. The unimportance of grades. 

I do not know much about you Barry, but I do know you worry a lot. Worry could be a result of your identify being wrapped up in performance - be it academic or otherwise. That raises concern to me that, should you underperform (whatever that means) you'll be devastated. While it is okay to get upset, I am hoping that you'll see that when you're faced with anxiety it can be used as a means of motivation and an opportunity to remind yourself that your worth is not conditional upon what measure of achievement you obtain and that your time is valuable. That's a lesson that will help you in school, but also in life more broadly. Have confidence in your abilities, work to refine them and grow them and but don't be scared of failure. Understand that you're not perfect but be moving in the direction of self-reflection and growth each day (even if it is just baby steps). 🙂 

[GGrievous]

4 hours ago, Apple said:

your worth is not conditional upon what measure of achievement you obtain and that your time is valuable.

I’m gonna use this line in my job interviews. 
 

thanks for the encouragement  @Apple . I’m working on it. 

[Rashabon]

I don't think it's fair to say people exaggerate the importance of grades. I think in some areas you can overcome bad grades through experience and expertise and they are less important, but all things being equal, good grades will win out over bad grades. Also bad grades will absolutely preclude you from certain career paths initially. I think if anything people underestimate the importance of grades.

[Apple]

1 minute ago, Rashabon said:

I don't think it's fair to say people exaggerate the importance of grades. I think in some areas you can overcome bad grades through experience and expertise and they are less important, but all things being equal, good grades will win out over bad grades. Also bad grades will absolutely preclude you from certain career paths initially. I think if anything people underestimate the importance of grades.

By exaggerating the importance of grades, I mean people exaggerate what grades are needed to secure good/desirable jobs. Given the panic students routinely experience because they get a B- and that there are many people like Barry out there (but that somehow every single year almost every law students turns out to be okay), I think exaggeration is fairly axiomatic. I am not saying saying grades don't matter, or that good grades won't win over bad grades or that bad grades will not preclude one from certain career paths initially. These things are all true. 

But getting certain grades is not the end of the world as some might think. I recall very clearly going through 1L with a notion that unless I got an A average I was gonna be screwed in the job market. This view was, in large part, because of the over exaggeration of the importance of top grades within the student body, career service departments and some posts on random internet forums. Perhaps it was a result of sample bias, but anecdotally I witnessed people exaggerate the importance of grades in the sense that if one got a B average they were thought to be guaranteed to strike out in formal recruits (which to many is the end all be all place to get a job and failing to do so means one is screwed).  

[legalevil]

i'm in 2L and feel like i just bombed my business associations exam. i have not yet secured a summer job. my 1L grades were "great" according to my school's CDO, even though i had one C+ which was in my seminar/research paper course. i also had a good legal experience in my 1L summer. if I do get a C in the course, will i be out of luck for any mid sized corporate firms that will continue hiring for 2Ls into next year?

[CleanHands]

17 minutes ago, legalevil said:

i'm in 2L and feel like i just bombed my business associations exam. i have not yet secured a summer job. my 1L grades were "great" according to my school's CDO, even though i had one C+ which was in my seminar/research paper course. i also had a good legal experience in my 1L summer. if I do get a C in the course, will i be out of luck for any mid sized corporate firms that will continue hiring for 2Ls into next year?

If your grades are otherwise "great," you'll be fine with a C or two.

[Pantalaimon]

49 minutes ago, Apple said:

... anecdotally I witnessed people exaggerate the importance of grades in the sense that if one got a B average they were thought to be guaranteed to strike out in formal recruits (which to many is the end all be all place to get a job and failing to do so means one is screwed).  

It's not a guarantee but the odds aren't great with a B average. I think the latter part here is more important, that there are plenty of legal jobs that don't require you to place in the top [whatever % your school usually places] of the class.

[FlyingFish]

In 1L all of my midterm exams were not fail safe (the grade received would count toward the final grade for the course). I received a C- two C+ a B- and and a B. Did not exactly knock it out of the park. The midterm I received a C- on was worth 35% of my final grade. I thought I was done for in terms of jobs etc.

I ended the year with a couple B- a couple B a B+ and an A-. You can come back; meet with your profs, work harder, and work smarter. 

Probably would not be able to get a job on Bay Street, but I have a job lined up for after I graduate in a field I am interested in.

You can turn it around.