Being a lawyer as a shabbat-observant Jew?

[Judge Jew-dy]

I've applied to law school but I was hoping to hear if anyone has any experience with observing religious practices as a lawyer? During Shabbat I cannot use my phone or any technology and I've heard that as a lawyer you might be working on the weekend. Furthermore, Shabbat in Canada starts early in the winter because it starts at sundown on Friday nights, which might hurt my job search because I doubt employers would like to hear that I can't work for a whole 25 hours.

If anybody has any experience with Shabbat or any religious observances as a lawyer I would greatly appreciate knowing so that I can either prepare or consider different trajectory paths from law school.

Also, sorry if this is not an appropriate question to ask, either here or on the forum entirely. I don't mean to break any rules I just thought I'd try.

[soundofconfusion]

This is a very good question, one I will largely leave for other people more able than I am to answer (not a lawyer, not yet a law student, please don't put too much weight on this post). I should ask, though, and please bear with me if this is a dumb question (I'm not super observant and wasn't raised Orthodox): exactly how shomer (shomrat?) Shabbat are you personally? Do you do any analog writing? I think you will face some very real challenges, which may or may not be accommodated for depending on the employer (I would tend to think BigLaw would be out of the question, which doesn't mean you'd necessarily be locked out of the profession, though again, people with actual experience in the field can answer much better than I can), but you might(?) be able to compensate one way or another. If you are willing to do work on paper, my assumption is that could help a good bit.

If that's not compatible with your observance of Shabbat, there are options that can cleave closer to a 9-5 workweek (notably government and in-house), and my assumption is that, even in busier periods, you could compensate by doing more on other days. I would expect that even if you find something that is open to Shabbat observance and is generally less demanding hours-wise, there are going to be nights when you go straight from putting out the Havdalah candle to turning on your phone/computer and then working for a good while, though.

Edited January 3, 2022 by soundofconfusion

[Rashabon]

46 minutes ago, soundofconfusion said:

This is a very good question, one I will largely leave for other people more able than I am to answer (not a lawyer, not yet a law student, please don't put too much weight on this post). I should ask, though, and please bear with me if this is a dumb question (I'm not super observant and wasn't raised Orthodox): exactly how shomer (shomrat?) Shabbat are you personally? Do you do any analog writing? I think you will face some very real challenges, which may or may not be accommodated for depending on the employer (I would tend to think BigLaw would be out of the question, which doesn't mean you'd necessarily be locked out of the profession, though again, people with actual experience in the field can answer much better than I can), but you might(?) be able to compensate one way or another. If you are willing to do work on paper, my assumption is that could help a good bit.

If that's not compatible with your observance of Shabbat, there are options that can cleave closer to a 9-5 workweek (notably government and in-house), and my assumption is that, even in busier periods, you could compensate by doing more on other days. I would expect that even if you find something that is open to Shabbat observance and is generally less demanding hours-wise, there are going to be nights when you go straight from putting out the Havdalah candle to turning on your phone/computer and then working for a good while, though.

I know you're trying to help but it's a lot of conjecture (which, to your credit, you rightly admit has no basis) that just isn't correct.

There are lots of shomer shabbas people in Big Law and the Canadian business world. You find ways to work around it and people are respectful. Big Law is actually one of the easier areas to deal with it because there are teams of lawyers that can handle issues between the beginning of shabbas and the end, unlike being a sole or in a smaller firm environment.

I don't know this guy but his post blew up this week about being shomer shabbas in US big law (you might have to login):

https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/content/?keywords=shabbat lawyer&sid=Anr&update=urn%3Ali%3Afs_updateV2%3A(urn%3Ali%3Aactivity%3A6880204088567455744%2CBLENDED_SEARCH_FEED%2CEMPTY%2CDEFAULT%2Cfalse)

There are lots of others in Canadian big law. I know some that work in corporate, others that work in tax. I haven't asked them how they handle it but they all manage.

OP, I suggest reaching out to Orthodox lawyers to ask them how they manage.

[soundofconfusion]

12 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

I know you're trying to help but it's a lot of conjecture (which, to your credit, you rightly admit has no basis) that just isn't correct.

There are lots of shomer shabbas people in Big Law and the Canadian business world. You find ways to work around it and people are respectful. Big Law is actually one of the easier areas to deal with it because there are teams of lawyers that can handle issues between the beginning of shabbas and the end, unlike being a sole or in a smaller firm environment.

I don't know this guy but his post blew up this week about being shomer shabbas in US big law (you might have to login):

https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/content/?keywords=shabbat lawyer&sid=Anr&update=urn%3Ali%3Afs_updateV2%3A(urn%3Ali%3Aactivity%3A6880204088567455744%2CBLENDED_SEARCH_FEED%2CEMPTY%2CDEFAULT%2Cfalse)

There are lots of others in Canadian big law. I know some that work in corporate, others that work in tax. I haven't asked them how they handle it but they all manage.

OP, I suggest reaching out to Orthodox lawyers to ask them how they manage.

Thanks, sorry about that! I think I was so worried no one was going to respond that I majorly jumped the gun. OP, please disregard me completely; I don't know what I'm talking about at all.

Edited January 3, 2022 by soundofconfusion

[Bob Jones]

18 hours ago, Judge Jew-dy said:

I've applied to law school but I was hoping to hear if anyone has any experience with observing religious practices as a lawyer? During Shabbat I cannot use my phone or any technology and I've heard that as a lawyer you might be working on the weekend. Furthermore, Shabbat in Canada starts early in the winter because it starts at sundown on Friday nights, which might hurt my job search because I doubt employers would like to hear that I can't work for a whole 25 hours.

If anybody has any experience with Shabbat or any religious observances as a lawyer I would greatly appreciate knowing so that I can either prepare or consider different trajectory paths from law school.

Also, sorry if this is not an appropriate question to ask, either here or on the forum entirely. I don't mean to break any rules I just thought I'd try.

Hey I’m Jewish (albeit not religious). I found law school to be very tolerant of religious holidays/observances. If an exam or event was scheduled for Shabbat or over a holiday they were pretty accommodating with rescheduling. I wouldn’t worry at all just try and give a reasonable heads up to your profs once you find out about a conflict so they have time to try and reschedule/accommodate. Good luck. 

[CleanHands]

3 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

Hey I’m Jewish (albeit not religious). I found law school to be very tolerant of religious holidays/observances. If an exam or event was scheduled for Shabbat or over a holiday they were pretty accommodating with rescheduling. I wouldn’t worry at all just try and give a reasonable heads up to your profs once you find out about a conflict so they have time to try and reschedule/accommodate. Good luck. 

Not what the OP asked about at all.

[KOMODO]

I have two friends in biglaw who are quite observant and both participate in Shabbat religiously (pun intended). They sometimes need to find another lawyer to cover files that are running later on Fridays, especially in the winter as you note, but from what I've personally seen everyone is pretty understanding. As Rashabon notes, this actually is relatively common in biglaw so it might be easier to find accommodation at a big firm vs. a smaller place where people don't have experience with observant lawyers.

From what I've seen (and I say this as someone looking from the outside, i.e. I am not observant, so hopefully someone religious will chime in with better info), the Friday/Saturday observation is more accepted than some of the other holidays, just because people are generally familiar with the concept of Friday/Saturday Shabbat. I think there's more education required to remind people about the more scattered full days off that are required throughout the year, which I assume you would also need to take if you are observant. I also see people having challenges with finding acceptable food at firm events, including those at restaurants (obviously pre-covid, it's less of an issue right now). I was surprised to learn of how few restaurants in the financial district offer kosher options, and most of my religious friends seem to end up eating vegan most of the time.

If you have questions about religious observance as you go through law school and the firm application process, I would strongly recommend that you speak with Jewish lawyers about their experiences directly. Don't be afraid to ask student directors to connect you with observant lawyers at their firms - I know that at most firms they would absolutely love to reassure you that you'll be accommodated, and those direct chats might also alert you to potential areas/firms/people to avoid, if any. 

[Rashabon]

I should note that it's not limited to true "big law", as there are certain mid size firms I can think of where being Orthodox or observant is not uncommon (Minden, Torkin, Fogler, etc.) but not all midsize or smaller firms will be as familiar.

But the general advice KOMODO and I both have is the same - it's certainly doable, and you shouldn't be afraid to ask the questions. A firm that rejects you as a result is one not worth working at.

As an aside, I have a client that has the key Jewish holidays embedded in its bylaws as non-business days. They are a very large company and well known. So it's not just law firms that have observance related considerations.

[Ramesses]

I do not have any specific advice, but I had a junior associate mentor tell me I need to change my appearance and beliefs to be more big law. I spoke with a senior partner mentor who was funny enough also at the same firm. She told me that I should never change who I am, whether its appearance or beliefs, to fit a firm. There are a lot of firms out there and there is always going to be one that is the right fit. Having to change or hide yourself to fit in somewhere is a painful thing and never worth it. 

I took her advice and now I am at a national firm where I am happy. Funny enough the junior associate ended up quitting the firm and found something that was more him. 

Anyways, the point is, there is always something out there for everyone. I am sure you will find a firm that supports your beliefs. 

[Bob Jones]

15 hours ago, CleanHands said:

Not what the OP asked about at all.

Relevant to OP’s question - religious accommodation in law school is an issue they will encounter. 

[Rashabon]

3 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

Relevant to OP’s question - religious accommodation in law school is an issue they will encounter. 

Not to belabour the point, but OP didn't ask about law school. They asked about working as a lawyer. School is school and everyone is aware they don't hold classes on weekends and that accommodations for exams are available. They are asking for real world advice.

[Mountebank]

On 1/3/2022 at 10:07 PM, KOMODO said:

I would strongly recommend that you speak with Jewish lawyers about their experiences directly.

Speak with a Jewish lawyer? But how would OP even go about finding such a rare bird in the first place?!??!?

[Anon1985]

I’m shomer shabbos and work for a small firm in a large city. I’ve never had an issue as my firm is BH very understanding. I’m out the door at 2:00 at the latest on winter Fridays (pre-Covid; even easier now that we’re remote). If I have anything urgent I’ll work the occasional Sunday or Saturday night (also easier now with remote). I do civil litigation so courts aren’t open on Saturdays anyway, so there isn’t anything that can’t be pushed off. My clients are insurance adjusters who don’t work weekends either, so there’s no problem with me not being reachable Friday-Saturday. The major holidays aren’t an issue because they’re so well-known. I may get some confused looks when I take off for Shavuot or things people haven’t heard of but it’s still not an issue. I usually take off CH pesach and succos too—it obviously eats up a lot of my vacation time and I have to make up the billable hours elsewhere, but it’s fine. 

I’m BT and was not SS during law school so I can’t speak to that. 

Good luck, OP!