UofT vs "somewhere else"

[Dnian]

Hey there! Sorry, I know this comparison is a little different, but I'm having a tough time with my decision process. I've been admitted to UofT, Osgoode, Queens and McGill.

My one, important, caveat is that I am not interested in pursuing corplaw or working on Bay Street. My interests are more oriented towards crim law, family law, or something adjacent (so, "not corporate"). My parents, who are my partial financiers, really want me to go to UofT (I think it's a prestige thing) and are willing to help me finance it, albeit not entirely. However, while I love the idea of studying in downtown Toronto, I'm not so sure it's actually worth the extra cost based on my career goals. U of T's competitive school ranking seems tempting, but from what I've read on this forum, people seem to imply that Osgoode or Queens are actually equally if not better options for a future in these areas of law.

In terms of McGill, it is also tempting, but I am intimidated by the French and the knowledge that I don't want to start my career in Quebec. I'm looking to work and practice in Ontario.

So, is U of T "worth it" for someone like me - both in terms of the extra cost, and the number of doors it opens into articling positions and job placements in crim, family law, etc? Would appreciate any advice!

 

[Phaedrus]

If you're interested in criminal law and are looking to save yourself unnecessary debt, @CleanHands recently talked about UBC. The rule of thumb is to attend a school in the province you want to practice in. However, criminal is a practice area where there's a bit more mobility. 

 

[Rashabon]

I'll defer to @CleanHands since I'm no crim expert by any stretch, but while there's legal mobility insofar as criminal law is federal, is it really "that" mobile from a practical standpoint? The criminal law bar is small-ish and the firms and practitioners much smaller with a lot of soles. As a know-nothing outside observer, my guess would be that if you wanted to practice in Ontario and didn't want to set up your own shingle as a first year, fresh from articling lawyer, you're still better off going to school in the jurisdiction in which you want to practice long term, so you can network and build connections. Being a criminal lawyer doesn't absolve you from the business side or the need to drum up business. You'll also be more familiar with the courts, the players and the clients if you're in Ontario vs. BC vs. Alberta. I would also expect different jurisdictions have different types of clients and crimes that become more or less common, etc.

Leaving that aside, to the OP - will your parents not finance you if you go to Osgoode? If so, you need to do the cost/benefit analysis there. If you're going into crim, not being as heavily debt burdened is a huge factor. U of T + financing vs. Osgoode self-financing is different than both or neither being financed. U of T is a perfectly fine school for learning criminal law and there are clinical opportunities, like DLS. Osgoode's clinical selection is superior and a big dividing factor. U of T obviously has a better location but that's not the be all, end all of these discussions.

Figure out what your financial picture is, and take a look at the clinical offerings at each of the schools you're interested in. That's more important than anything else if crim/family are your top choices right now.

If you don't feel confident in French and don't want to be in Quebec to start, I wouldn't recommend McGill, unless you really, really want slightly more doors open for continental Europe or something.

Lots of people love Queens by the way, @Hegdis is a BC based criminal lawyer that went to Queens, so don't discount the school. I just don't like Queens or Kingston so I don't have much to say about it beyond seeing whether their clinical opportunities align with your interests and where it ranks financially for you. I wouldn't pick Queens over Osgoode unless there was a material ($20K+) difference in the long term, personally.

[Deadpool]

No, U of T is probably not worth it for you.

https://www.law.utoronto.ca/student-life/career-development-office/career-statistics

According to U of T's career statistics, only 2-3% of students pursue criminal law out of law school. I am certain that more students are interested in criminal law when going into law school, but when you are debt-financing your degree and there is a lot of focus on obtaining jobs through the formal recruitment processes, this initial interest in criminal law takes a backseat for many people. I attended an event once hosted by U of T's Criminal Law Students' Association and it was a very small group of people and everyone thought they would be making 100k+ out of law school as a criminal lawyer. I was left with the impression that most people going to U of T and other expensive law schools wanting to pursue non-corporate areas of law do not take the time to research the actual salaries in these fields, and are generally skeptical when you correctly point out to them that salaries are not as high in these fields as they may think it is. 

There are very few jobs in criminal law, family law, and most other personal service areas of law (outside of personal injury and insurance defence firms) that come up in the OCI and articling recruitment. This is a key factor to consider because U of T is prized for its high OCI placement rates, and its placement rates on Bay Street and in New York specifically. If the employers you want to work for are not participating in these formal recruitment processes, then this already makes your investment less worthwhile. You can see the list of OCI employers here - https://ultravires.ca/2021/11/toronto-summer-2022-2l-recruit-numbers/. I can email you the list of articling employers I have for the past couple years as well, if you think this will help you make your decision.

The largest criminal law employer in law school are the MAG crown offices, and the MAG does not care which law school you went to. The main factors they will be assessing in a candidate are their law school grades and their demonstrated interest in criminal law as evidenced by clinical activities, extracurriculars, and course selection. In this regard, the clinical opportunities in criminal law and family law at Osgoode (and many other personal areas of law) are far superior to what is offered at U of T. Many people I know that participated in the Innocence Project, Intensive Program in Criminal Law, and CLASP Criminal Law Division went on to work for top criminal defence firms, non-profits, and the MAG crown offices in the GTA. For those interested in pursuing a career in family law, Osgoode has the Feminist Advocacy: Ending Violence Against Women Clinical Program, CLASP Family Law Division, Parkdale Community Legal Services - Social Assistance, Violence, and Health Division, and the Mediation Clinical Program. Osgoode also offers many advanced courses in family law, surrogacy law, and child protection law that is taught by leading academics and practitioners in the field. Lastly, a few Osgoode students (and U of T, Queen's, and McGill) clerk at the trial courts every year which do a lot of criminal and family law, so this would be great experience as well.

In my opinion, when you are spending tens of thousands of dollars in tuition alone, the biggest takeaway will not be the law school's reputation or the academics, but the actual experiences and connections you make while there. Participation in clinical programs, research activities, and extracurriculars in your practice area interests, and connecting with peers, academics, and practitioners who share similar interests as you, is what makes law school a fulfilling and enriching experience. You will likely have a more enriching experience, I believe, if you were to attend Osgoode or Queen's than you would at U of T. In any event, you cannot go wrong with any decision here, and congratulations on your offers.

[CleanHands]

2 hours ago, Rashabon said:

I'll defer to @CleanHands since I'm no crim expert by any stretch, but while there's legal mobility insofar as criminal law is federal, is it really "that" mobile from a practical standpoint? The criminal law bar is small-ish and the firms and practitioners much smaller with a lot of soles. As a know-nothing outside observer, my guess would be that if you wanted to practice in Ontario and didn't want to set up your own shingle as a first year, fresh from articling lawyer, you're still better off going to school in the jurisdiction in which you want to practice long term, so you can network and build connections. Being a criminal lawyer doesn't absolve you from the business side or the need to drum up business. You'll also be more familiar with the courts, the players and the clients if you're in Ontario vs. BC vs. Alberta. I would also expect different jurisdictions have different types of clients and crimes that become more or less common, etc.

I went to law school in a different province than I am articling in (and I even know multiple criminal lawyers on this very forum who did the same).

I would say that for Crown work it literally does not matter whether one studies in a different province. A student can't really network into a Crown job. There is no significant local advantage to be had. They have standardized, merit-based, government hiring processes. Once a student is hired they will get tons of exposure to the processes and players in their jurisdiction and learn what they need to know. And since it's government rather than a private employer they don't resent students being ignorant and needing to be invested in.

For criminal defence, location is a consideration. You're right that it's a small bar and everyone knows everyone. And since it's all small shops and soles, they want to hire students they get to know and like. I know students who got hired by their supervising lawyers in criminal law clinics, volunteer organizations, and such. You're right that it's a lot easier to network into a job locally without even applying. With that said, the posters on this forum who I had in mind who went to school in one province and did criminal articles in another did so on the defence side (and are better placed to speak to that experience than me).

Knowing the lawyers and judges in different provinces and how they operate is valuable, and different provinces have slightly different court rules and such. But I don't think this is so important or great an advantage that location should be a huge consideration in what law school to attend. People can and do pack up and move to another province for articles all the time without issue.

[Hegdis]

You Want To Do Criminal Defence?

Rule #1 keep your debt low because nothing limits options like money

Rule #2 do as much clinical work as possible that gives you time with clients and time in court in any capacity - nothing else comes close to teaching you this skill as simply doing it over and over

Rule #3 pay attention in Evidence and Crim Pro - it’s not just the grade that matters; you need to soak up this material as much as possible in order to be good counsel

Rule #4 join your CBA subsection and do your best to observe in court (if permitted per COVID rules) - you want counsel to recognize your face so they feel comfortable offering you work later

 

Edit to add Rule #5

Never ever ever badmouth anyone or assume you are “too good” for a type of file or client. It’s one thing to listen carefully when lawyers warn you off a certain firm or file, but your role is to receive the information and not to repeat it in public as if you have any status as a brand new Call / student

[123]

5 minutes ago, Hegdis said:

You Want To Do Criminal Defence?

Rule #1 keep your debt low because nothing limits options like money

Rule #2 do as much clinical work as possible that gives you time with clients and time in court in any capacity - nothing else comes close to teaching you this skill as simply doing it over and over

Rule #3 pay attention in Evidence and Crim Pro - it’s not just the grade that matters; you need to soak up this material as much as possible in order to be good counsel

Rule #4 join your CBA subsection and do your best to observe in court (if permitted per COVID rules) - you want counsel to recognize your face so they feel comfortable offering you work later

Edit to add Rule #5

Never ever ever badmouth anyone or assume you are “too good” for a type of file or client. It’s one thing to listen carefully when lawyers warn you off a certain firm or file, but your role is to receive the information and not to repeat it in public as if you have any status as a brand new Call / student

I'm enjoying imagining this post slightly re-written and rapped as a Biggie/Lin-Manuel Miranda style "Five Crim Commandments".

[123]

3 hours ago, Rashabon said:

my guess would be that if you wanted to practice in Ontario and didn't want to set up your own shingle as a first year, fresh from articling lawyer, you're still better off going to school in the jurisdiction in which you want to practice long term, so you can network and build connections

This is true even if you did want to set-up a sole practice early. At the beginning, most of my referrals came from other lawyers. So having local connections was still pretty important. Which isn't to say you can't make those connections after law school -- I didn't go to law school where I practice. But it was much harder than if I'd gone to school here and already had a larger network in southern Ontario. 

[Dnian]

9 hours ago, Rashabon said:

[trimmed]

U of T is a perfectly fine school for learning criminal law and there are clinical opportunities, like DLS. Osgoode's clinical selection is superior and a big dividing factor. U of T obviously has a better location but that's not the be all, end all of these discussions.

Figure out what your financial picture is, and take a look at the clinical offerings at each of the schools you're interested in. That's more important than anything else if crim/family are your top choices right now.

 

8 hours ago, Deadpool said:

[trimmed]

In my opinion, when you are spending tens of thousands of dollars in tuition alone, the biggest takeaway will not be the law school's reputation or the academics, but the actual experiences and connections you make while there. Participation in clinical programs, research activities, and extracurriculars in your practice area interests, and connecting with peers, academics, and practitioners who share similar interests as you, is what makes law school a fulfilling and enriching experience. You will likely have a more enriching experience, I believe, if you were to attend Osgoode or Queen's than you would at U of T. In any event, you cannot go wrong with any decision here, and congratulations on your offers.

Wow, thank you both so much for your profound advice - it has given me a lot to think about, and I'm really glad I asked. I really am grateful for your time and effort.

Putting my financial situation aside (my parents will help either way, and I have enough savings to cover roughly half my tuition even at U of T), is it really the case that Osgoode/Queen's are as superior as they seem in terms of their clinical offerings? I can't wrap my head around it. At face value, though, I had noticed even before posting many of the same things you both pointed out - U of T seems to basically just have Downtown Legal Services, and that's it.

Is this misleading, and DLS is just a larger clinic that offers a roughly proportionate level of clinical placement opportunities to Osgoode's various clinics?  If not, why does U of T not put more effort into making more clinical opportunities available? Do they just know their pool of applicants is on the whole less interested in these kinds of clinics?

In all honesty, my ideal University in terms of location and campus is still U of T. However, I can't justify going there if I'm actually paying significantly more in tuition costs, in exchange for relatively less opportunities in my areas of interest. 

In any case, thanks so much for the advice. I'll definitely post updates in the thread.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Dnian

[Deadpool]

58 minutes ago, Dnian said:

 

Wow, thank you both so much for your profound advice - it has given me a lot to think about, and I'm really glad I asked. I really am grateful for your time and effort.

Putting my financial situation aside (my parents will help either way, and I have enough savings to cover roughly half my tuition even at U of T), is it really the case that Osgoode/Queen's are as superior as they seem in terms of their clinical offerings? I can't wrap my head around it. At face value, though, I had noticed even before posting many of the same things you both pointed out - U of T seems to basically just have Downtown Legal Services, and that's it.

Is this misleading, and DLS is just a larger clinic that offers a roughly proportionate level of clinical placement opportunities to Osgoode's various clinics?  If not, why does U of T not put more effort into making more clinical opportunities available? Do they just know their pool of applicants is on the whole less interested in these kinds of clinics?

In all honesty, my ideal University in terms of location and campus is still U of T. However, I can't justify going there if I'm actually paying significantly more in tuition costs, in exchange for relatively less opportunities in my areas of interest. 

In any case, thanks so much for the advice. I'll definitely post updates in the thread.

https://www.legalaid.on.ca/student-legal-service-organizations/#:~:text=Student Legal Service Organizations (SLSO)%2C funded by LAO%2C,landlord and tenant

Downtown Legal Services is one of seven student legal service organizations funded by Legal Aid Ontario. Its equivalent at the other schools would be CLASP and Queen's Legal Aid. Not all legal clinics practice in the same areas of law, and not all offer the same level of comprehensiveness. You have to research the individual practice areas you are interested in pursuing at these clinics. U of T also has the Advocates for Injured Workers clinic for those interested in pursuing a career in labour and employment law. U of T has until recently marketed its International Human Rights Program quite heavily to prospective students (Osgoode and Queen's also have similar programs). The program accepts 15-20 students per year. However, the hiring controversy has led to many organizations severing their ties with the program and it is in a state of limbo (https://www.blogto.com/city/2021/05/amnesty-international-cuts-ties-u-of-t-scandal/). I've read online testimonials from U of T students saying that they are disappointed with what is happening with the IHRP as it was the reason they chose to go to U of T, and noticed that most of them ended up going to Bay Street firms regardless. 

I don't think anyone here can tell you why U of T does not invest more into its clinical programs, but I suspect that it is because their largest donors, and the employers that hire the most number of U of T law students, are Bay Street firms and other corporate employers. You can see this just by reading the names on the classrooms. U of T is not charging the highest tuition rate in the country just to place students in social justice careers and retail law. A school can be a leading law school in the country and still be lacking in certain areas or just have a less of a focus on them. It also takes years to successfully build up new clinical programs, as you need to secure the funding, gauge the interest of students, faculty, practitioners, and the community it intends to serve, and then create partnerships within the community. 

Osgoode is the oldest law school in Ontario and for a time the only law school in the province. It has had a long time to create and develop these programs and build its community partnerships. Many leading lawyers and academics in the non-corporate fields are Osgoode alumni, and many of them will give back to the school to help it continue to build its brand in these areas; this is how the criminal law programs at Osgoode gained a good reputation as you have people like Marie Henein and Alan Young giving back to the school. I have seen a lot of leading lawyers and academics in the fields of criminal, immigration, family, indigenous/aboriginal law, etc. teach at Osgoode. I am not sure if it is a coincidence that they also happen to be alumni of the school. Lastly, Osgoode and Queen's place less students on Bay Street so they need to provide other experiences in order for their students to remain competitive in the job market. 

Disclaimer: A lot of this is from my personal observations and experiences which I've gathered over the years. I am not claiming to be an authority on these matters and this is just for information purposes. It is up to the you to do your own due diligence, ask around, and make the decision that you think is best for you. I would suggest messaging students and alumni in these programs, ideally in your desirable career path, on LinkedIn. Good luck. 

[Dnian]

13 hours ago, Deadpool said:

https://www.legalaid.on.ca/student-legal-service-organizations/#:~:text=Student Legal Service Organizations (SLSO)%2C funded by LAO%2C,landlord and tenant

Downtown Legal Services is one of seven student legal service organizations funded by Legal Aid Ontario. Its equivalent at the other schools would be CLASP and Queen's Legal Aid. Not all legal clinics practice in the same areas of law, and not all offer the same level of comprehensiveness. You have to research the individual practice areas you are interested in pursuing at these clinics. U of T also has the Advocates for Injured Workers clinic for those interested in pursuing a career in labour and employment law. U of T has until recently marketed its International Human Rights Program quite heavily to prospective students (Osgoode and Queen's also have similar programs). The program accepts 15-20 students per year. However, the hiring controversy has led to many organizations severing their ties with the program and it is in a state of limbo (https://www.blogto.com/city/2021/05/amnesty-international-cuts-ties-u-of-t-scandal/). I've read online testimonials from U of T students saying that they are disappointed with what is happening with the IHRP as it was the reason they chose to go to U of T, and noticed that most of them ended up going to Bay Street firms regardless. 

I don't think anyone here can tell you why U of T does not invest more into its clinical programs, but I suspect that it is because their largest donors, and the employers that hire the most number of U of T law students, are Bay Street firms and other corporate employers. You can see this just by reading the names on the classrooms. U of T is not charging the highest tuition rate in the country just to place students in social justice careers and retail law. A school can be a leading law school in the country and still be lacking in certain areas or just have a less of a focus on them. It also takes years to successfully build up new clinical programs, as you need to secure the funding, gauge the interest of students, faculty, practitioners, and the community it intends to serve, and then create partnerships within the community. 

Osgoode is the oldest law school in Ontario and for a time the only law school in the province. It has had a long time to create and develop these programs and build its community partnerships. Many leading lawyers and academics in the non-corporate fields are Osgoode alumni, and many of them will give back to the school to help it continue to build its brand in these areas; this is how the criminal law programs at Osgoode gained a good reputation as you have people like Marie Henein and Alan Young giving back to the school. I have seen a lot of leading lawyers and academics in the fields of criminal, immigration, family, indigenous/aboriginal law, etc. teach at Osgoode. I am not sure if it is a coincidence that they also happen to be alumni of the school. Lastly, Osgoode and Queen's place less students on Bay Street so they need to provide other experiences in order for their students to remain competitive in the job market. 

Disclaimer: A lot of this is from my personal observations and experiences which I've gathered over the years. I am not claiming to be an authority on these matters and this is just for information purposes. It is up to the you to do your own due diligence, ask around, and make the decision that you think is best for you. I would suggest messaging students and alumni in these programs, ideally in your desirable career path, on LinkedIn. Good luck. 

Thanks for the clarification re: DLS and U of T's focal areas. You are clearly very knowledgeable on this subject, and make a strong and well-reasoned case for Osgoode. I have to say that I entered this forum conversation being quite partial to U of T and have now left it feeling skeptical of going there at all - you are definitely persuasive, haha.

For next steps, I'm going to be getting on some calls with friends/acquaintances at Queen's, Osgoode, and UofT and then seeing what my impression is from there, as you suggest. Based on all of your contributions and my own research, barring any major change of course that suddenly attracts me to a Bay Street career, I think my decision will likely come down to Queen's vs Osgoode. I still do find the Family Law and Prison Law clinics at Queen's to be right up my ally, and Kingston cost of living is also appealing to me, so I'll keep my mind open between the two.

Something else I'm going to be doing is contacting the admissions offices at Osgoode and Queen's and inquire about merit scholarships, as my overall undergrad stats and LSATs are significantly above their medians, but they haven't offered me any other incentives to accept. That might be unlikely to result in anything, but still worth a shot - maybe they'll see I'm debating accepting and try to lure me in. If one of them does make me a compelling offer, I'll probably accept there as a result.

In any case, thank you (and everyone who replied). I'll be sure to post an update here when I do finally accept somewhere. This is a great community resource and I'll definitely be coming back to contribute more to canlawforum in the future!

Edited January 21, 2022 by Dnian

[Ghalm]

UofT has clinical course offerings every year beyond DLS, IHRP, David Asper, and the new Investor Protection clinic (which are the in-house clinics). Every year there are "clinical legal education" offerings which can range in intensity. These are basically clinical experiences with outside clinics. I can see that this year there is: appellate crim lit., Barbra Schlifer Clinic, Community Justice Collective, Aboriginal legal services, Innocence Canada, Pro Bono ON. litigation, health justice legal clinic https://www.law.utoronto.ca/academic-programs/course-calendar among others that may not touch upon your areas of interest.

I am not sure on what basis the claim is made that Osgoode's programs are "far superior" than UofT's programs apart from personal opinion (which I wouldn't hang my hat on). I do not know that much about either UofT or Osgoode's clinical programs as a whole to make such a bold comparative comment. Anecdotally, when I was doing DLS crim, I remember speaking to a CLASP crim colleague while we both were waiting at a prov. court... his experience with CLASP was not as involved as mine at DLS, I was doing a lot more than him with a lot less direct supervision. This is purely anecdotal and so really nothing to reach a bold conclusion that UofT's in-house crim program is superior to CLASP.

Also, there are moots that all schools have, handful of which are focused on crim law. 

I concur with the balance of advice though. Crim def / family law are not typically highly lucrative areas of the law right off the bat and the most important thing IMO for you will be to gain as much practical exposure to those areas of the law and to graduate with the least amount of debt and the most amount in savings so that you can comfortably pursue your interests. Arguably UofT offers you nothing more for the additional price its asking you for as compared to other schools. 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Ghalm

[Pendragon]

@Ghalm

https://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/programs/juris-doctor/jd-program/clinics-intensives/

https://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/programs/juris-doctor/experiential-education/internship-programs/

https://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/programs/juris-doctor/experiential-education/internship-programs/other-osgoode-internships/

https://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/programs/juris-doctor/experiential-education/internship-programs/business-internships/

https://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/programs/juris-doctor/experiential-education/

https://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/programs/juris-doctor/jd-program/international-programs/international-programs-osgoode-students/international-opportunities/

[Ghalm]

10 minutes ago, Pendragon said:

@Ghalm

https://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/programs/juris-doctor/jd-program/clinics-intensives/

https://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/programs/juris-doctor/experiential-education/internship-programs/

https://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/programs/juris-doctor/experiential-education/internship-programs/other-osgoode-internships/

https://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/programs/juris-doctor/experiential-education/internship-programs/business-internships/

https://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/programs/juris-doctor/experiential-education/

https://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/programs/juris-doctor/jd-program/international-programs/international-programs-osgoode-students/international-opportunities/

UofT has funding for summer internships too, including from some of the same donors as Osgoode. I do not know what your point is with linking these and other things. They seem to all point to similar programs that UofT has. Oz's clinical and intensive programs look the same to me as UofT's clinical experience courses, with differing titles. Some of Oz's clinical intensives are even with the same exact external orgs. as UofT's lol. 

Also, Osgoode has ~100 more students than UofT...  i wonder just how competitive it is to get a clinic of choice! You are competing with more students. 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Ghalm

[Pendragon]

1 minute ago, Ghalm said:

UofT has funding for summer internships too, including from some of the same donors as Osgoode. I do not know what your point is with linking these and other things. They seem to all point to similar programs that UofT has. Oz's clinical and intensive programs look the same to me as UofT's clinical experience courses, with differing titles. Some of Oz's clinical intensives are even with the same exact external orgs. as UofT's lol. 

Can you provide links to these programs? Because I only see this on their website. 

https://www.law.utoronto.ca/centres-programs/legal-clinics

https://www.law.utoronto.ca/academic-programs/jd-program/experiential-learning-faculty-law

The main difference between the schools is that Oz seems to offer more in-house, full-time clinics that you can do for credit while U of T focuses on providing some experiental learning opportunities via coursework and partnerships with external organizations. Doing a placement two days a week for 2 hrs is different from working at a clinic almost like it is a full-time job. When I compare what I see on the two school websites, one seems more in-depth than the other. 

[CleanHands]

16 minutes ago, Ghalm said:

UofT has funding for summer internships too, including from some of the same donors as Osgoode. I do not know what your point is with linking these and other things. They seem to all point to similar programs that UofT has. Oz's clinical and intensive programs look the same to me as UofT's clinical experience courses, with differing titles. Some of Oz's clinical intensives are even with the same exact external orgs. as UofT's lol. 

For much of this I don't know the finer points. But I can tell you that as an example, UofT's external program with Innocence Canada is in no way comparable to the in-house Innocence Projects of Osgoode or UBC.

The last I looked into this (a year or two ago), UofT had something like 4 externship positions with Innocence Canada, whereas the UBC Innocence Project has around 15 year-long clinical students in addition to student volunteers outside the clinical program. While I'm sure the Innocence Canada experience is great, from what I was able to read it also didn't seem to compare in terms of the depth, duration and substance of the experience involved (UBC Innocence Project clinicians have a six-credit, year long clinical program where they are assigned specific files to manage the entire time, each student has a supervising lawyer in addition to regular contact with the director, and the students are also enrolled in a Preventing Wrongful Convictions seminar where they are educated about false confessions, Mr. Big operations, frailties in forensic evidence, etc). I am open to correction about the UofT Innocence Canada externship if anyone with direct experience with it wants to challenge me on this, but I don't see how an external program with capacity for only a few students could possibly have comparable infrastructure in place to provide such a student experience. I think the UBC Innocence Project experience is both more accessible and superior, and while I don't know the ins and outs of Oz's program I am sure it is closer to UBC's than UofT's.

This is just an example, but my point is to not mistake programs as being the same just because they have similar names.

EDIT - Ninja'd by @Pendragon, but I agree with him and thought I'd give one example.

Edited January 21, 2022 by CleanHands

[Icarus]

On 1/20/2022 at 2:12 PM, Deadpool said:

According to U of T's career statistics, only 2-3% of students pursue criminal law out of law school. I am certain that more students are interested in criminal law when going into law school, but when you are debt-financing your degree and there is a lot of focus on obtaining jobs through the formal recruitment processes, this initial interest in criminal law takes a backseat for many people.

Just thought I would point out that the 2-3% figure referenced does not include "Government" and thus does not count Crown jobs. Your point remains, but it's not quite that bad.  

[123]

On 1/20/2022 at 2:12 PM, Deadpool said:

According to U of T's career statistics, only 2-3% of students pursue criminal law out of law school. I am certain that more students are interested in criminal law when going into law school, but when you are debt-financing your degree and there is a lot of focus on obtaining jobs through the formal recruitment processes, this initial interest in criminal law takes a backseat for many people. I attended an event once hosted by U of T's Criminal Law Students' Association and it was a very small group of people and everyone thought they would be making 100k+ out of law school as a criminal lawyer. I was left with the impression that most people going to U of T and other expensive law schools wanting to pursue non-corporate areas of law do not take the time to research the actual salaries in these fields, and are generally skeptical when you correctly point out to them that salaries are not as high in these fields as they may think it is

[...]

Participation in clinical programs, research activities, and extracurriculars in your practice area interests, and connecting with peers, academics, and practitioners who share similar interests as you, is what makes law school a fulfilling and enriching experience. You will likely have a more enriching experience, I believe, if you were to attend Osgoode or Queen's than you would at U of T.

Caveat that I didn't go to U of T, so this is second-hand.

I have social justice oriented friends who found U of T pretty depressing for this reason. It's not even just that the corporate focus deprives you of a shared sense and community. It's not just that you're missing out on something. It's that an overly corporate, big law focus feels alienating.  By virtue of need due to tuition price or genuine interest, the participation in the recruits at U of T is very robust. Common enough that opting out is a little odd.

I went to a much less expensive, less prestigious school. There wasn't nearly the same sense of momentum towards big law. And yet, as someone who didn't want to work at major firms for fancy, institutional clients, being around for the recruits made me feel down. There was a bit of a sense of being a failure. For a while, the brass ring for a lot of my friends was number of OCIs, in firms, etc., and when you've largely opted out of those processes, you can start to feel a little inferior. And it was a little alienating. There was a brief period of time where most people were furiously striving for a thing I couldn't care less about. That was isolating, and I seriously questioned whether law was for me.

What helped is finding exactly what @Deadpool describes. Eventually I found a community who shared my values, and with whom I could grow and collaborate as a budding legal professional. Finding that sense of belonging in law school affirmed my choice and principles, and pushed me towards what I ultimately wanted to do. Maybe the do-gooders also find that at U of T. But it seems like it would be rarer where the people who realistically aspire to the same career goals are (i) the relatively small handful of people who received major scholarships, (ii) the already wealthy, (iii) the grossly misinformed, and (iv) those who are prepared to risk living in extreme austerity for years after graduation.

[Ghalm]

5 hours ago, Pendragon said:

Can you provide links to these programs? Because I only see this on their website. 

https://www.law.utoronto.ca/centres-programs/legal-clinics

https://www.law.utoronto.ca/academic-programs/jd-program/experiential-learning-faculty-law

The main difference between the schools is that Oz seems to offer more in-house, full-time clinics that you can do for credit while U of T focuses on providing some experiental learning opportunities via coursework and partnerships with external organizations. Doing a placement two days a week for 2 hrs is different from working at a clinic almost like it is a full-time job. When I compare what I see on the two school websites, one seems more in-depth than the other. 

I appreciate your point and it is true. Osgoode does seem to have more in-house full time clinic opportunities with their intensives. I wonder how competitive they are though. My friend did the international law intensive and I recall him telling me the intensives were competitive to get and many of his peers didn't get in. Though, I am sure UofT clinic opportunities are competitive too, but the school does have usually 100 less students.

Other than that, your post seems to imply that UofT's external clinic programs are typically 2 hours 2 days a week. In my reading of the above linked course offerings, nothing struck me as 4 hours per week. There is a wide range. Seems like there are around 36 part time and 6 full time DLS positions among their departments. I remember IHRP used to have part time and full time clinic opportunities when I was there. From my personal experience at DLS, part time could be anywhere from 15 to 20 hours per week (depending on your files), and full time was a standard 37-40 hour week. The other external clinics like that with CERA and OHRC seem to be 10-12 hours per week. Barbara Schliffer is full carriage of 5-7 files and/or an 1 work day a week + 2 hours of clinic work.  IAVGO is 5 active files at a time (not sure what that means in terms of commitment but do they seem to suggest its real-time so can't predict). Community Justice, which awards the lowest # of credits, is 6-8 hours per week.  Innocence Canada is "work on your own time". Osgoode's few non-intensive clinics seem to range as well. For example, feminist advocacy is with Barbara Schliffer and is 1 work day a week + 2 hour seminar. Innocence Canada says the work can vary year to year. Mediation clinic is a weekly seminar + file work, without specific time commitment mentioned (my other friend just told me this clinic's clinic work was "as much as you want", and she would say she worked around 5-6 hours per week) . 

Here is the link to UT's internship funding opportunities https://www.law.utoronto.ca/student-life/career-development-office/summer-internship-programs.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Ghalm

[Dnian]

34 minutes ago, Ghalm said:

I appreciate your point and it is true. Osgoode does seem to have more in-house full time clinic opportunities with their intensives. I wonder how competitive they are though. My friend did the international law intensive and I recall him telling me the intensives were competitive to get and many of his peers didn't get in. Though, I am sure UofT clinic opportunities are competitive too, but the school does have usually 100 less students.

Other than that, your post seems to imply that UofT's external clinic programs are typically 2 hours 2 days a week. In my reading of the above linked course offerings, nothing struck me as 4 hours per week. There is a wide range. Seems like there are around 36 part time and 6 full time DLS positions among their departments. I remember IHRP used to have part time and full time clinic opportunities when I was there. From my personal experience at DLS, part time could be anywhere from 15 to 20 hours per week (depending on your files), and full time was a standard 37-40 hour week. The other external clinics like that with CERA and OHRC seem to be 10-12 hours per week. Barbara Schliffer is full carriage of 5-7 files and/or an 1 work day a week + 2 hours of clinic work.  IAVGO is 5 active files at a time (not sure what that means in terms of commitment but do they seem to suggest its real-time so can't predict). Community Justice, which awards the lowest # of credits, is 6-8 hours per week.  Innocence Canada is "work on your own time". Osgoode's few non-intensive clinics seem to range as well. For example, feminist advocacy is with Barbara Schliffer and is 1 work day a week + 2 hour seminar. Innocence Canada says the work can vary year to year. Mediation clinic is a weekly seminar + file work, without specific time commitment mentioned (my other friend just told me this clinic's clinic work was "as much as you want", and she would say she worked around 5-6 hours per week) . 

Here is the link to UT's internship funding opportunities https://www.law.utoronto.ca/student-life/career-development-office/summer-internship-programs.

Thanks for this, by the way. Really appreciate the info in all of your posts - the Criminal, Housing, and Family Law departments at DLS still seem great even notwithstanding Osgoode’s higher selection of opportunities.
 

You mentioned your personal experience doing crim at DLS - would you be able to share how competitive it was to get in, and when you were there? Did you hear of people not being able to find any clinical placements at DLS?
 

To be clear, I know I kind of framed this thread in a way to encourage being critical of UofT but I still would love to go there! Between my savings and my parents help I have the financial resources and it was my a dream to get in there for a long time. However, I just really would appreciate more info about DLS and how realistically likely I am to find the clinical experience I need there - I’m a little worried that I won’t have the tools I need to succeed in a career in crim. To that end I’d really appreciate if you’d be willing to share anything further either here or by DM! Thanks a bunch. 🙂 

[Ghalm]

39 minutes ago, Dnian said:

Thanks for this, by the way. Really appreciate the info in all of your posts - the Criminal, Housing, and Family Law departments at DLS still seem great even notwithstanding Osgoode’s higher selection of opportunities.
 

You mentioned your personal experience doing crim at DLS - would you be able to share how competitive it was to get in, and when you were there? Did you hear of people not being able to find any clinical placements at DLS?
 

To be clear, I know I kind of framed this thread in a way to encourage being critical of UofT but I still would love to go there! Between my savings and my parents help I have the financial resources and it was my a dream to get in there for a long time. However, I just really would appreciate more info about DLS and how realistically likely I am to find the clinical experience I need there - I’m a little worried that I won’t have the tools I need to succeed in a career in crim. To that end I’d really appreciate if you’d be willing to share anything further either here or by DM! Thanks a bunch. 🙂 

Hmm, IMO: DLS paid summer jobs were competitive like any other faculty 1L job. There were like 25 spots and I think like 100+ applicants. From what I recall, their credit-based part time / full time clinical opportunities were not that competitive. At least in my year they were looking to fill in spots for their part-time and full time gigs for some departments (cannot remember which, but I remember this cuz I worked there and also did semester work so it was the talk of the clinic at the time). 

In terms of what I got to do:

I loooooooved my time working for DLS and doing their semester work.

There are only certain minor offences that you can assist with as a student, but as a baby lawyer-to-be it was so incredible to be able to appear in dozens of set dates, conduct crown-pre trials on your own, conduct judicial pre-trials on your own, guilty pleas, sentencing submissions, peace bond resolutions, meet with and manage client expectations, review disclosure, prepare for trials (drafting exams-in-chief, cross exams, closing submissions), write factums for appeals, research memos, help clients through the criminal legal process, connect with various orgs. to help facilitate your client's successful completion of various programs in hopes for a resolution, get to know your clients, establish a rapport and professional relationship etc. etc. 

I ran my own one day trial and it was both an awe-striking and invigorating experience. Awe-striking because O m g is it scary and weighty to be the advocate for a client whose facing a deprivation of their liberty (however minor in my case given the level of offence, but still he was facing 90 days in jail + probation), and invigorating in the same way to get on your feet and hold the crown's case to account. My client was found guilty. I subsequently ran his sentencing hearing, and successfully convinced the judge to order a far more lenient sentence than the Crown was asking for! I then subsequently helped him with his appeal. Beyond this, I was very close to running another trial save for a last minute resolution. 

Anyways, I can't say if the above gives you the tools you need to succeed in a career in criminal law because I pursued commercial litigation. I suspect the reality of crim def. work beyond the most minor of summary offences that DLS works on is far more awe-striking and invigorating, but i will leave the assessment of student crim clinics vis-a-vis prep. for a successful career to the professionals on here. Only thing I can say is that I obtained lots of crown interviews when I applied, and i suspect that had to do with my DLS experience (never applied to def. firms)

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Ghalm

[PulpFiction]

1 hour ago, realpseudonym said:

yet, as someone who didn't want to work at major firms for fancy, institutional clients, being around for the recruits made me feel down. There was a bit of a sense of being a failure. For a while, the brass ring for a lot of my friends was number of OCIs, in firms, etc., and when you've largely opted out of those processes, you can start to feel a little inferior. And it was a little alienating. There was a brief period of time where most people were furiously striving for a thing I couldn't care less about. That was isolating, and I seriously questioned whether law was for me.

Did you really feel that way, even though you had no interest in those jobs? No one in my circle of crim-oriented friends gave a crap about OCIs or the corporate recruit. It was all smiles on my end, congratulating those that secured a position, but not once did I feel down or like a failure. Then again, I had a fairly sizeable group of people around me with similar interests, so I guess that helped cancel out some of the noise. If anything. not participating made it easier to not care about it at all and not feel bad about it - I knew I self selected out, not because I wasn't good enough, but because I didn't want it.  None of my peers that participated gave me crap about it, either. To most of my cohort that I interacted with, it was evident what my end goal was early on, and I'm sure they were smart enough to realize landing a job through the recruits wouldn't have aligned with that goal. 

Now, those that wanted a big law gig and struck out....well, I saw some sad faces around school for a few weeks. But they got over it when they landed their PI and ID gigs 😄 

Edited January 22, 2022 by PulpFiction

[123]

2 minutes ago, PulpFiction said:

Did you really feel that way, even though you had no interest in those jobs?

I did. That's why I wrote that I did. But you're right - my experience certainly isn't universal, so I others' mileage may vary. 

[Ghalm]

48 minutes ago, Dnian said:

Thanks for this, by the way. Really appreciate the info in all of your posts - the Criminal, Housing, and Family Law departments at DLS still seem great even notwithstanding Osgoode’s higher selection of opportunities.
 

You mentioned your personal experience doing crim at DLS - would you be able to share how competitive it was to get in, and when you were there? Did you hear of people not being able to find any clinical placements at DLS?
 

To be clear, I know I kind of framed this thread in a way to encourage being critical of UofT but I still would love to go there! Between my savings and my parents help I have the financial resources and it was my a dream to get in there for a long time. However, I just really would appreciate more info about DLS and how realistically likely I am to find the clinical experience I need there - I’m a little worried that I won’t have the tools I need to succeed in a career in crim. To that end I’d really appreciate if you’d be willing to share anything further either here or by DM! Thanks a bunch. 🙂 

Also, if you have your heart stuck on UofT and $$ isn't an issue... and you really want to go, I wouldn't say force yourself to go elsewhere... I was friends with the crowd of interested in crim students, they were a tight knit group, and all of my peers who worked in crim def at DLS all ended up in crim law (save for me lol). Many of them got pretty snazzy crim law gigs too - downtown crown attorney's office, crown law office crim (which does crown appeals), ppsc, alan gold's office, greenspan humphrey weinstein, henien hutchinson, addario law group, etc.

This group all seemed very close and there was even a sort of like shared hate towards UofT's corp law focus that like brought them closer together lol. The portion of the group that I was tight with were all lovely people, we all became good friends, and whenever we'd hang out they all loved to tease me for pursing commercial lit 🙂 

For me, if I was set on a criminal law career, I wouldn't go to UofT cuz of the finances issue. For me, $ was a problem. Yeah their student aid was pretty decent and most people got around 10-15k in financial bursaries to offset the tuition cost, but i suspect eligible students could've gotten good amounts of aid at other schools too. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Ghalm

[PulpFiction]

3 minutes ago, realpseudonym said:

I did. That's why I wrote that I did. But you're right - my experience certainly isn't universal, so I others' mileage may vary. 

Glad you got over it. It just seems silly to me, but like you said, your experience isn't universal - guess the same goes for me.