UofT vs "somewhere else"

[Darth Vader]

17 minutes ago, Ghalm said:

Also, if you have your heart stuck on UofT and $$ isn't an issue... and you really want to go, I wouldn't say force yourself to go elsewhere... I was friends with the crowd of interested in crim students, they were a tight knit group, and all of my peers who worked in crim def at DLS all ended up in crim law (save for me lol). Many of them got pretty snazzy crim law gigs too - downtown crown attorney's office, crown law office crim (which does crown appeals), ppsc, alan gold's office, greenspan humphrey weinstein, henien hutchinson, addario law group, etc.

This group all seemed very close and there was even a sort of like shared hate towards UofT's corp law focus that like brought them closer together lol. The portion of the group that I was tight with were all lovely people, we all became good friends, and whenever we'd hang out they all loved to tease me for pursing commercial lit 🙂 

For me, if I was set on a criminal law career, I wouldn't go to UofT cuz of the finances issue. For me, $ was a problem. Yeah their student aid was pretty decent and most people got around 10-15k in financial bursaries to offset the tuition cost, but i suspect eligible students could've gotten good amounts of aid at other schools too. 

You hung out with a smart group of people because most of these places take those with ~top 10% grades, clerkships, and medals. 

[Ghalm]

2 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

You hung out with a smart group of people because most of these places take those with ~top 10% grades, clerkships, and medals. 

Literally none of them were clerks or medalists. Can't comment on their grades. Only commonality I know of is that they all did DLS crim. But yes, absolutely, they are all smart and hard-working, that is for sure.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Ghalm

[Dnian]

24 minutes ago, Ghalm said:

Also, if you have your heart stuck on UofT and $$ isn't an issue... and you really want to go, I wouldn't say force yourself to go elsewhere... I was friends with the crowd of interested in crim students, they were a tight knit group, and all of my peers who worked in crim def at DLS all ended up in crim law (save for me lol). Many of them got pretty snazzy crim law gigs too - downtown crown attorney's office, crown law office crim (which does crown appeals), ppsc, alan gold's office, greenspan humphrey weinstein, henien hutchinson, addario law group, etc.

This group all seemed very close and there was even a sort of like shared hate towards UofT's corp law focus that like brought them closer together lol. The portion of the group that I was tight with were all lovely people, we all became good friends, and whenever we'd hang out they all loved to tease me for pursing commercial lit 🙂 

For me, if I was set on a criminal law career, I wouldn't go to UofT cuz of the finances issue. For me, $ was a problem. Yeah their student aid was pretty decent and most people got around 10-15k in financial bursaries to offset the tuition cost, but i suspect eligible students could've gotten good amounts of aid at other schools too. 

Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences! I really do appreciate the insights. DLS sounds awesome; I definitely have lots to think about. 
 

All through my undergrad the reason I was pushing myself to strive for a high GPA was that U of T end goal, but I know that was largely based in a kind of naive impression of the faculty’s prestige. Nonetheless, I won’t lie and say that living in downtown Toronto and pursuing my law school dream isn’t something that still carries a lot of weight to me relative to living near York or in Kingston. It is reassuring to me to know that my initial impression that there are still vibrant opportunities for non-Corp stuff at U of T, but I’ll definitely still be thinking things over in terms of pros and cons. 

[Ghalm]

2 minutes ago, Dnian said:

Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences! I really do appreciate the insights. DLS sounds awesome; I definitely have lots to think about. 
 

All through my undergrad the reason I was pushing myself to strive for a high GPA was that U of T end goal, but I know that was largely based in a kind of naive impression of the faculty’s prestige. Nonetheless, I won’t lie and say that living in downtown Toronto and pursuing my law school dream isn’t something that still carries a lot of weight to me relative to living near York or in Kingston. It is reassuring to me to know that my initial impression that there are still vibrant opportunities for non-Corp stuff at U of T, but I’ll definitely still be thinking things over in terms of pros and cons. 

Good luck! I still say minimize debt and maximize savings. UofT can probably give you nothing more than what you can get at another cheaper school! 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Ghalm

[Darth Vader]

2 minutes ago, Dnian said:

Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences! I really do appreciate the insights. DLS sounds awesome; I definitely have lots to think about. 
 

All through my undergrad the reason I was pushing myself to strive for a high GPA was that U of T end goal, but I know that was largely based in a kind of naive impression of the faculty’s prestige. Nonetheless, I won’t lie and say that living in downtown Toronto and pursuing my law school dream isn’t something that still carries a lot of weight to me relative to living near York or in Kingston. It is reassuring to me to know that my initial impression that there are still vibrant opportunities for non-Corp stuff at U of T, but I’ll definitely still be thinking things over in terms of pros and cons. 

Something that a lot of people don't consider is the population area you'd be serving in these clinical programs. Osgoode being located in North York is actually a benefit and not a detriment to people seeking social justice careers, because it is near Jane and Finch and North York has a lot of people living in poverty and marginalized communities. There is a reason why U of T's main attraction is Bay Street, considering how close to it they are located. It always strikes me that people claiming to want to work for poor people don't actually want to live in these communities. They'd rather attend a largely homogeneous school that caters to the upper middle-class and wealthy in one of the richest areas in town. I know this is an exaggeration but I think you get my point. Considering the fact that you want to do criminal law, be open to the idea of immersing yourself in these different environments with poor people and marginalized communities. That also is a good learning experience for you, especially if you yourself come from a privileged background (and it sounds like you do because of your family's financial situation).

[Dnian]

Thanks again everyone for all of your help, for the record. I had some more questions but am realizing I will try to do a bit more of my own research and soul-searching first, as many have recommended. In any case, this site is a great resource and I really truly appreciate it.

Edited January 22, 2022 by Dnian

[Dnian]

22 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

Something that a lot of people don't consider is the population area you'd be serving in these clinical programs. Osgoode being located in North York is actually a benefit and not a detriment to people seeking social justice careers, because it is near Jane and Finch and North York has a lot of people living in poverty and marginalized communities. There is a reason why U of T's main attraction is Bay Street, considering how close to it they are located. It always strikes me that people claiming to want to work for poor people don't actually want to live in these communities. They'd rather attend a largely homogeneous school that caters to the upper middle-class and wealthy in one of the richest areas in town. I know this is an exaggeration but I think you get my point. Considering the fact that you want to do criminal law, be open to the idea of immersing yourself in these different environments with poor people and marginalized communities. That also is a good learning experience for you, especially if you yourself come from a privileged background (and it sounds like you do because of your family's financial situation).

I totally acknowledge the validity of your point. I am very grateful to be in a financial position where I have enough parental support and personal savings accumulated to attend Osgoode or UofT with only relatively modest debt (or even none at all if I can make enough money in the summers). 

As a follow up though - I don’t ask this in an argumentative way at all but one of genuine understanding - is the average visitor to DLS not usually marginalized or low-income residents of the city in need, relative to Osgoode’s clinics? I guess I can understand based on the catchment area that that might be the case, but I wasn’t aware the difference was that pronounced.

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Dnian

[Ghalm]

26 minutes ago, Dnian said:

I totally acknowledge the validity of your point. I am very grateful to be in a financial position where I have enough parental support and personal savings accumulated to attend Osgoode or UofT with only relatively modest debt (or even none at all if I can make enough money in the summers). 

As a follow up though - I don’t ask this in an argumentative way at all but one of genuine understanding - is the average visitor to DLS not usually marginalized or low-income residents of the city in need, relative to Osgoode’s clinics? I guess I can understand based on the catchment area that that might be the case, but I wasn’t aware the difference was that pronounced.

 

I don't fully understand your question, but to be qualified for representation at a clinic like DLS, the client has to meet legal aid income and asset thresholds which are at or below the poverty line. At DLS Crim, we appeared before 5 provincial court houses in TO, two in downtown (Old City Hall, College Park) two in North York (1000 Finch and 2201 Finch) and 1 in Scarborough. That meant we were frequently in transit for our court visits (including bussing all the way to 1000 Finch and 2201 Finch). I suspect CLASP adheres to the same income / asset thresholds, works out of city's prov. courhouses, maybe even the same 5 prov. courthouses as DLS, and has to be in transit in a similar way. I'll note, though, that there are many marginalized populations in downtown Toronto. As part of DLS, we'd do community outreach at various facilities that cater to people experiencing homelessness, for example, and these facilities were all downtown. Conversely, I'd also visit Jane & Finch for some other kind of DLS work too, working with people on OW and ODSP. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Ghalm

[Pendragon]

45 minutes ago, Dnian said:

Thanks again everyone for all of your help, for the record. I had some more questions but am realizing I will try to do a bit more of my own research and soul-searching first, as many have recommended. In any case, this site is a great resource and I really truly appreciate it.

Ultimately it comes down to this. Although you are financially supported, is it worth spending a fortune to attend a corporate-focus school like U of T, and justify that decision with the DLS clinic when every other school also has similar clinics and more? I believe Ghalm also stated that only a few division leaders are selected per division. Queen's has a prison law clinic which looks interesting and is located near the penitentiaries. Traditionally, many Queen's students have pursed criminal law and there is a large alumni network in the GTA. You asked earlier if there was a major difference between U of T and Osgoode in landing criminal law jobs in Toronto, and the answer is no. A lot of Windsor, Queen's, Western, and Ottawa grads also work at these same firms. Your school name does not matter for this field. Your decision comes down to the kind of experience you want to have for the next 3 years of law school, and the type of people you want to surround yourself with. 

[Dnian]

10 minutes ago, Pendragon said:

Ultimately it comes down to this. Although you are financially supported, is it worth spending a fortune to attend a corporate-focus school like U of T, and justify that decision with the DLS clinic when every other school also has similar clinics and more? I believe Ghalm also stated that only a few division leaders are selected per division. Queen's has a prison law clinic which looks interesting and is located near the penitentiaries. Traditionally, many Queen's students have pursed criminal law and there is a large alumni network in the GTA. You asked earlier if there was a major difference between U of T and Osgoode in landing criminal law jobs in Toronto, and the answer is no. A lot of Windsor, Queen's, Western, and Ottawa grads also work at these same firms. Your school name does not matter for this field. Your decision comes down to the kind of experience you want to have for the next 3 years of law school, and the type of people you want to surround yourself with. 

You're right - it definitely it isn't worth the fortune, and going there would basically be sheerly a convenience/"experience" thing. Beyond not being worth a $25k difference from Osgoode for the 30 minute commute from York, I'm also fully aware that it is a very naive reason to pick a law school. 

I could go into my whole life story here, but I just think going through the gymnastics of fleshing out why U of T isn't possible is an important step for me. It's been kind of isolating going through COVID in my undergrad, and I lost a lot of that "downtown, fun while you're young" experience I thought I'd get before law school due to the pandemic. I think U of T's initial appeal of being able to live "downtown" - near things to do; places to explore; the city's queer/LGBTQ+ scene, etc - also honestly carried a little bit of undue weight for me. Being able to acknowledge what I already knew deep down (why I made this thread) that that stuff isn't even close to a primary concern anymore, and that Osgoode is probably a superior school for my interests, is something I'm happy this thread has helped me do.

While law school is tough, and I think that stuff does matter, I 100% take everything you all are saying to heart. After a long day of thinking about this, I see myself being at Osgoode as the now-likeliest possibility by far. In any case, I am still keeping an open mind, as I have set up calls with 2Ls/3Ls at all three schools and will be doing some soul-searching. I'll be sure to report back so people can know the result of their efforts to convince me - thanks again to you and to everyone, particlarly @Deadpool, @Ghalm. 🙂

[Ghalm]

1 minute ago, Dnian said:

You're right - it definitely it isn't worth the fortune, and going there would basically be sheerly a convenience/"experience" thing. Beyond not being worth a $25k difference from Osgoode for the 30 minute commute from York, I'm also fully aware that it is a very naive reason to pick a law school. 

I could go into my whole life story here, but I just think going through the gymnastics of fleshing out why U of T isn't possible is an important step for me. It's been kind of isolating going through COVID in my undergrad, and I lost a lot of that "downtown, fun while you're young" experience I thought I'd get before law school due to the pandemic. I think U of T's initial appeal of being able to live "downtown" - near things to do; places to explore; the city's queer/LGBTQ+ scene, etc - also honestly carried a little bit of undue weight for me. Being able to acknowledge what I already knew deep down (why I made this thread) that that stuff isn't even close to a primary concern anymore, and that Osgoode is probably a superior school for my interests, is something I'm happy this thread has helped me do.

While law school is tough, and I think that stuff does matter, I 100% take everything you all are saying to heart. After a long day of thinking about this, I see myself being at Osgoode as the now-likeliest possibility by far. In any case, I am still keeping an open mind, as I have set up calls with 2Ls/3Ls at all three schools and will be doing some soul-searching. I'll be sure to report back so people can know the result of their efforts to convince me - thanks again to you and to everyone, particlarly @Deadpool, @Ghalm. 🙂

Aw yay! Let me just say, that law school (at least based on my experience) is a world of its own.- especially with the friends you make, clinics, moots, externships, etc. etc.. If God willing the pandemic ends and we return to some normalcy in time for your 1L, you can hopefully have an awesome experience that hopefully isn't isolating. And you can always explore DT Toronto including the Village on the evenings/weekends! There is rapid transit from York to DT (30-40 mins depending on traffic). I truly do not think UofT is worth the 25K premium for your interests - and i say this as an alumni.

[Deadpool]

In case this is helpful, Osgoode has pub nights every week with most venues located in downtown Toronto. I went there before the subway was completed and the pub nights and other events hosted downtown always had a great turnout. With the subway completed, it only takes 30 minutes to get to the core of downtown from Osgoode. As a K-JD, I do not think I missed out on the party-life or the law school experience by attending a school in North York, because it is the people that make the party and not the location alone. A lot of Osgoode students live on campus in first year and the social life is quite lively. There are JCR nights every Wednesday where you can get drinks, play pool, watch politics or a game on a large-screen TV, and mingle with your colleagues. A lot of students live on the subway line and closer to downtown after first year, so you can also do this if you want to spend more time there. Don't think that you need to attend law school in downtown Toronto to be able to enjoy the city. Even if you went to U of T, you would have to hop on the subway to get to most events. 

All in all, if you are looking to also have fun in law school, I can tell you that this is entirely possible from Osgoode. In fact, I attended many joint events hosted by U of T and Osgoode and had a good time showing U of T students how Osgoode students can party. 

[Dnian]

I know it's three weeks later, but I promised I would report back when I'd accepted - I went with Osgoode and ended up declining at U of T. Thanks everyone for your advice and guidance on this thread. 🙂