How much time off do y'all get?

[Lawstudents20202020]

1 hour ago, PzabbytheLawyer said:

4 weeks vacation. In theory we close between Christmas and New year, but I learned this year that's a farce. I suspect the same will be true for any stat holidays if there's work to be done.

In turn, even though my firm calculates my daily to bill, the fact that I'll work through a lot of these days, means I will be ending up significantly over target.

Have I ever said how much I hate billable targets? I miss working at a place that valued quality over quantity.

The one thing I miss about personal injury is not having to track time or have billables. Just complete freedom to run the file however you want. 

[Rashabon]

I'm usually over target though last year was an extreme outlier. I ended up in the top 10 which is somewhere I would rather not be.

[PzabbytheLawyer]

2 hours ago, Lawstudents20202020 said:

The one thing I miss about personal injury is not having to track time or have billables. Just complete freedom to run the file however you want. 

I always figured that area of law would be so volume oriented it would feel like you didn't have enough time for anything!

[Lawstudents20202020]

7 minutes ago, PzabbytheLawyer said:

I always figured that area of law would be so volume oriented it would feel like you didn't have enough time for anything!

I did my articles at a small firm that valued quality over quantity, so I got the luxury of spending time thoroughly researching each case. I'm guessing at bigger outfits it's a bit different now. 

[leafs_law]

3 hours ago, Jaggers said:

I haven't had to worry about billables since Leafs was in law school!

The substance of private practice fantasies across the globe.

[PzabbytheLawyer]

2 hours ago, Lawstudents20202020 said:

I did my articles at a small firm that valued quality over quantity, so I got the luxury of spending time thoroughly researching each case. I'm guessing at bigger outfits it's a bit different now. 

I really don't think it has to do with size, as much as it does with firm culture.

A quality firm knows quality work takes time. A firm that doesn't care, and rides off its reputation, won't allow the time necessary for quality work on files, or for the learning required to happen at the junior level (associate or student level).

I've worked at a very small firm that provided me with the best mentorship I've gotten to this day (1L summer). I still harken back to my boss's lessons in advocacy. I've since worked at institutions, as well as massive firms, and worked on SCC, ONCA, SCJ, Div court matters, and while I did receive good mentorship at my last place, it wasn't as good as that first summer.

Contrast that with my current firm, and it's shocking the differences.

[Rashabon]

Having done this long enough, the firms that don't churn out quality work become very obvious very quickly.

[WhoKnows]

37 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

Having done this long enough, the firms that don't churn out quality work become very obvious very quickly.

And it might not always be the ones you expect. Though I suppose you may never really be able to tell if your firm is one of the ones churning the bad work out. Lawyers tend to have pretty high opinions of their own work. 

Edited February 9, 2022 by WhoKnows

[Jaggers]

1 hour ago, Rashabon said:

Having done this long enough, the firms that don't churn out quality work become very obvious very quickly.

Yeah. A firm that we hire could get away with slacking on one or two files, but we'd find them out pretty soon and replace them with another firm.

[Ghalm]

What does poor quality / firm dropping the ball look like with the files ya'll are familiar with?

[WhoKnows]

3 hours ago, Ghalm said:

What does poor quality / firm dropping the ball look like with the files ya'll are familiar with?

There's the normal stuff, like a lack of responsiveness, constant spelling errors/orphaned defined terms, failure to turn documents in a timely fashion, etc. There's also issues around not understanding the client's use case and providing work product that is valuable. Consider these two examples: 

1. Client goes to firm and asks for them to review the entirety of their material contracts and provide a list with notes on assignment/change of control provisions. The work comes back as an excel sheet (or worse, a Word doc), with a generic "provisions" column. Except the deal is a two step, and the obvious use case is the client wants to know who they need to notify at stage 1, assignment, and who they need to notify at stage 2, change of control. Now, client can't simply use the excel sort feature, because everything is thrown into one column - they've gotta go line by line and make determinations themselves, and some aren't very clear. They've basically been given something unusable. 

2. Client goes to firm and asks for review on process on how to transfer certain permits in their jurisdiction. Memo comes back with a step-by-step guide, including contact info and phone numbers, with the basis below. They also identify a live issue that was unknown to you involving the deal structure, and identify it as a deal risk - with steps to mitigate. 

I can tell you firm 2. would get a lot more of my business. 

Edited February 9, 2022 by WhoKnows

[Ghalm]

4 hours ago, WhoKnows said:

There's the normal stuff, like a lack of responsiveness, constant spelling errors/orphaned defined terms, failure to turn documents in a timely fashion, etc. There's also issues around not understanding the client's use case and providing work product that is valuable. Consider these two examples: 

1. Client goes to firm and asks for them to review the entirety of their material contracts and provide a list with notes on assignment/change of control provisions. The work comes back as an excel sheet (or worse, a Word doc), with a generic "provisions" column. Except the deal is a two step, and the obvious use case is the client wants to know who they need to notify at stage 1, assignment, and who they need to notify at stage 2, change of control. Now, client can't simply use the excel sort feature, because everything is thrown into one column - they've gotta go line by line and make determinations themselves, and some aren't very clear. They've basically been given something unusable. 

2. Client goes to firm and asks for review on process on how to transfer certain permits in their jurisdiction. Memo comes back with a step-by-step guide, including contact info and phone numbers, with the basis below. They also identify a live issue that was unknown to you involving the deal structure, and identify it as a deal risk - with steps to mitigate. 

I can tell you firm 2. would get a lot more of my business. 

Great examples, thanks!

[Lawstudents20202020]

7 hours ago, Ghalm said:

What does poor quality / firm dropping the ball look like with the files ya'll are familiar with?

Poorly drafted undertakings has been a big thing I've been seeing lately. Dont undertake to do things you don't have control of and definitely don't try and make it another firms problem because you did something stupid 

[Rashabon]

I was counsel on a transaction where we were advising the underwriters who were on in support of a going public transaction and had to explain to issuer's counsel that their deal structure did not work at all and the transaction document they served up was a gigantic piece of crap. Was not impressed.

[Snax]

On the topic of quality, is it common for lawyers to have a list of firms that they’d never work at because of the quality of the work received from them and the type of interactions you’ve had with people working there? 
 

Because there’s one firm in particular that I’ve worked on a couple files with and they’re … atrocious. Like, a “we can’t even assemble and scan standard bank security documents properly” level of bad. Then blame me for their problems like I, an articling student, have any real say in any of this. There are also a couple other firms that I have opinions on, both good and bad, that sort of influence whether I’d like to work there in the future if I were to change firms. 
 

just curious if I’m being overly critical or if this is something most lawyers think about. 

[Rashabon]

Yes. I very much know who is good and who isn’t and who I would want to work opposite. I can tell when a file will be fine versus more difficult than it has to be. Sometimes you’re in position to direct who the other side my hire and you can make your thoughts known in those circumstances.

[DennisNextDoor]

I currently work in government and get just over 5 weeks off a year and an additional 3 weeks off for sick leave if it is needed. Our office also has a rather functional work from home policy that allows a pretty decent work life balance if something unexpected comes up like the children being sick or home from school.

[Judgelight]

23 hours ago, DennisNextDoor said:

I currently work in government and get just over 5 weeks off a year and an additional 3 weeks off for sick leave if it is needed. Our office also has a rather functional work from home policy that allows a pretty decent work life balance if something unexpected comes up like the children being sick or home from school.

Isn't it 6 sick days? Do you find yourself using the 15 days off? 

[Vizslaw]

I'm pleased to report that we changed it from 3 weeks to 5 weeks as far as the contract goes. To be honest, we've never counted vacation days and really don't care so long as the work is getting done.

[DennisNextDoor]

On 2/19/2022 at 4:14 PM, Judgelight said:

Isn't it 6 sick days? Do you find yourself using the 15 days off? 

I don't typically. But it's nice. For example, I had a surgery this year and it was nice having those days to use! 

[beyondsection17]

I get 4 weeks off. I work in-house and don't bill my hours, so it is "real" vacation time.

[t3ctonics]

I didn't even think of sick leave, but @DennisNextDoor and @Judgelight mentioned it. My sick leave and short term disability are combined into a single benefit, which is a year of sick leave (LTD takes over after a year). It's an incredibly good sick benefit. I think I've only taken three or four days in four and a half years, but it's nice to know it's there. A doctor's note can be required at management's discretion, but that's usually only for prolonged absences or people who call in sick a lot (like 10+ times a year).

[easttowest]

On 2/5/2022 at 11:01 AM, easttowest said:

I’m trying to work at a pace that will allow me to take four weeks off and come in a bit ahead of my target. 

I’m hoping that a trial I have in the fall will crank me far enough over that pace that I can take two weeks off around Christmas too, but we’ll see. 

I have banked my first week off. Five more to go! 

I also took two full weekends off this month and could take this one coming up as well if I want to (though discovery prep may make that unfeasible).