UBC vs UofT vs Osgoode (international law)

[Mierce]

Hi everyone,

I've received offers from UBC, UofT, and Osgoode, and I am currently weighing the pros and cons of each. I was hoping to maybe get some help/insight into the decision.

My undergrad is in International Relations from UBC Okanagan. In an ideal world, I would want to continue along this vein and go into something like public international law. My understanding is that it's a difficult field to get into, so I get that I might have to settle for something similar (though I'm not super clear on what that includes -- I don't have any lawyers in the family and don't really know many).

A note on finances: I currently receive PWD (disability assistance) from the BC government in lieu of the living allowance portion of student loans. Obviously the benefit of that is that PWD isn't a loan, but it has weird effects on financial aid calculations that UBC's and UofT's calculators don't take into account. I would likely have to give up PWD if I go to Ontario, but it's possible (very much not a guarantee) that I could get ODSP or could get permission from the BC gov't to go out of province for the study period.

My impressions so far of each are:

UBC:

• MUCH cheaper tuition ($13k)
  • Financial Aid calculator says I should get about $10,000 in bursaries
    • Don't know how PWD affects this
• International Justice and Human Rights clinic
• Pretty good study abroad options
• PWD can remain unchanged
• Other than that, not really any international-law-specific benefits

 

UofT:

• Ability to combine the JD with a Master of Public Policy or a Master of Global Affairs
  • Downside: extra tuition + extra year
• Ability to go to the Centre for Transnational Legal Studies in London for a semester (or the TTA in Singapore)
• International Human Rights program (clinic)
• Possibly the most name recognition overseas?
• Most expensive tuition ($33k)
  • Financial Aid calculator predicts I should get a little over $20k in bursaries
    • Also don't know how PWD/ODSP would affect this

 

Osgoode

• Curricular stream in international, comparative, and transnational law
• International and Transnational Law Intensive Program
• In-between tuition ($25k)
  • But: no financial aid calculator, and seems potentially less generous than UofT
• (Obviously minor) worst campus location of the three

 

[Ghalm]

Congrats on getting into 3 great schools!! As a UofT alumni: I personally think you should be very hesitant to attend UofT. I assume it will burden you with the highest debt load. A high debt load just makes life difficult. In particular, if you are looking into public int'l law and/or other areas of law that typically have lower starting salaries than large firm salaries, then you probably want to do what you can to minimize your debt load post-law school. Among the three options, if I was in your shoes and knew I wanted to do public int'l law, I'd go to UBC, pursue my passion with their HR clinic, study abroad programs, the courses, and the profs that specialize in the area (RA for them, build a relationship with them, etc.), and from there pursue the organizations in Canada or abroad that do the kind of work I am interested in (who will likely be looking for demonstrable interest in the area). If you end up changing your area of interest during law school, well, you'll still be at UBC, a great top school that can put you in a good spot for any area of law! Good luck! 

[Mierce]

Thanks for your advice! Yes, I think UBC would likely have the lowest debt load. I could probably get by on just government loans and PWD. I suppose then it would depend on whether UofT or Oz provides enough benefits to make up for the difference, but you're probably right that they wouldn't.

[Darth Vader]

Let's break this down practically. The vast majority of graduates from all three of these schools go into corporate law and private practice. I have been practicing law for a couple years now and have rarely come across any Canadian lawyers doing public international law, with the exception of people with master's and PhDs from Oxbridge and the T14 schools. Law is for the most part, jurisdictional, and if any international law issues come up, most clients would just outsource it to lawyers that are licensed to practice law in that jursidiction. You could look into cross-border corporate law, international trade, and international tax, but I suspect this is not what you mean by public international law. 

My honest advice is to keep this area of interest as a side thing and pick a school from a practical lens. Look through these employment statistics carefully, evaluate how much debt you want to take on, and decide where you want to live and work in the future. Your law school grades will matter a lot for clerkships and master's and PhD/SJD programs. 

https://ultravires.ca/2021/11/toronto-summer-2022-2l-recruit-numbers/

https://canlawforum.com/topic/1704-how-difficult-is-it-to-get-a-job-in-toronto-from-an-out-of-province-school/page/2/#comment-17442

https://www.law.utoronto.ca/student-life/career-development-office/career-statistics

The closest to public international law you can get is if you manage to get a counsel position in the federal government, specifically at a place like Global Affairs Canada or the Department of Justice (in one of their international law focused groups) and this is extremely rare. I saw a recent post on LinkedIn where a Harvard law graduate said they got hired at Global Affairs Canada after 2 years in the process (this person had international internships and US Big law experience on their profile).

Edited February 6, 2022 by Darth Vader

[Turtles]

Oz has a great ITLIP clinic but the program director is retiring and it's likely not going to be offered as frequently anymore. 

I can't imagine jeopardizing your funding and financial situation by choosing Osgoode or UofT over UBC.

[Darth Vader]

7 minutes ago, Turtles said:

Oz has a great ITLIP clinic but the program director is retiring and it's likely not going to be offered as frequently anymore. 

I can't imagine jeopardizing your funding and financial situation by choosing Osgoode or UofT over UBC.

This. And these international law clinics and internships in law school don't lead to full-time jobs anyways. Most people I know who did the ITLIP are in Big law now. 

[Mierce]

Thank you both! I think the debt difference is definitely pushing me towards UBC. I was browsing jobs at the UN (legal officer / associate legal officer) and that seems like a potential route if I was committed to public international law. The downside though is that they mostly seem to want an LLM or equivalent. More reason to minimize debt from my JD I guess lol.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Mierce

[CleanHands]

8 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

This. And these international law clinics and internships in law school don't lead to full-time jobs anyways. Most people I know who did the ITLIP are in Big law now. 

Same with the clinic at UBC, just in case anyone was under the wrong impression. Great clinic by my understanding, but I know many people who did it, none of whom are working in international law after graduating.

These are all great schools and you can't go wrong with any of them, but public international law is sort of a pie-in-the-sky pursuit and people shouldn't go to any Canadian JD program with expectations of ending up working in that sphere. So minimizing debt load is a sensible basis for deciding where to go, as others have appropriately emphasized.

3 minutes ago, Mierce said:

Thank you both! I think the debt difference is definitely pushing me towards UBC. I was browsing jobs at the UN (legal officer / associate legal officer) and that seems like a potential route if I was committed to public international law. The downside though is that they mostly seem to want an LLM or equivalent. More reason to minimize debt from my JD I guess lol.

A mentor and colleague of mine worked at the International Criminal Court after getting an LLM in International Law from the University of Nottingham, and he told me that all of his classmates secured similar jobs after graduation. That's the sort of thing you may want to consider after a JD.

Edited February 6, 2022 by CleanHands

[Deadpool]

4 minutes ago, Mierce said:

Thank you both! I think the debt difference is definitely pushing me towards UBC. I was browsing jobs at the UN (legal officer / associate legal officer) and that seems like a potential route if I was committed to public international law. The downside though is that they mostly seem to want an LLM or equivalent. More reason to minimize debt from my JD I guess lol.

I've gone through this process. Are you fluent in the UN languages? Most legal officer positions are based outside of North America and will require you to move to these countries and work for little pay. These positions are also often on contracts and not on a permanent basis, so many people do them for 6 months to 1 year, then return home to find a permanent job in their fields. The legal officer positions are pretty difficult to get, because you don't need to be a lawyer to qualify for these positions. The UN favours those with PhDs as they have specialized knowledge. With a general undergraduate arts degree and a law degree, you will not be competitive for these jobs until you've worked for some time in a paricular field, and can bring specialized and relevant knowledge to the UN organization you are applying to. 

[Mierce]

22 minutes ago, Deadpool said:

I've gone through this process. Are you fluent in the UN languages? Most legal officer positions are based outside of North America and will require you to move to these countries and work for little pay. These positions are also often on contracts and not on a permanent basis, so many people do them for 6 months to 1 year, then return home to find a permanent job in their fields. The legal officer positions are pretty difficult to get, because you don't need to be a lawyer to qualify for these positions. The UN favours those with PhDs as they have specialized knowledge. With a general undergraduate arts degree and a law degree, you will not be competitive for these jobs until you've worked for some time in a paricular field, and can bring specialized and relevant knowledge to the UN organization you are applying to. 

No, I have a pretty limited language repertoire. Aside from English, I'm about intermediate in French and a little worse than that in German. Living/working overseas is a plus for me, but I guess the pay depends on how little it is (and also pushes me even further toward UBC for debt purposes). I certainly wouldn't be against doing an LLM in international law or something along those lines (though doing a PhD/SJD or something would perhaps feel like too much school too fast imo). Aside from that, what would you suggest insofar as getting experience that the UN would be looking for? 

I'm also not attached to the UN, I'm more than happy to work in government, for NGOs, or other international organizations.

[Deadpool]

2 minutes ago, Mierce said:

No, I have a pretty limited language repertoire. Aside from English, I'm about intermediate in French and a little worse than that in German. Living/working overseas is a plus for me, but I guess the pay depends on how little it is (and also pushes me even further toward UBC for debt purposes). I certainly wouldn't be against doing an LLM in international law or something along those lines (though doing a PhD/SJD or something would perhaps feel like too much school too fast imo). Aside from that, what would you suggest insofar as getting experience that the UN would be looking for? 

I'm also not attached to the UN, I'm more than happy to work in government, for NGOs, or other international organizations.

Get involved in clinical programs in law school. Get good grades (and do an appellate and/or SCC clerkship if you can). Try to get a government/legal aid job (ideally in a department that does more international law type work or in the field you want to specialize in). Most of the UN legal officers I know from Canada worked in legal aid and the government. A lot of the ones from the US worked in US Big law in the litigation and international arbitration groups. 

Do an LLM or another specialized master's degree from an internationally renowned school. As @CleanHands mentioned, talk to people who've done an LLM/other master's degree and worked internationally. 

Similar to the advice you will get in law school, you need to figure out an area of specialization. It is not ideal to apply to govenrment, NGOs, and international organizations with a generic resume and background. It's fine in law school but not after you've graduated and are applying to these positions as a lawyer. So start thinking about the area of law you want to specialize in in law school. 

The UN will be tough to get into without knowledge of the UN languages or a PhD. They also favour people from developing countries as you will see a lot of their employees on LinkedIn are from Africa, the Middle East, and South America. I would keep this as an alternative plan and manage your expectations. Once you have enough expeirence in a field or do a tailored LLM, you might be able to break in. If you have an interest in corporate work, you can do an LLM from a T6 school and try to get into the World Bank or International Finance Corporation in the US as well (though on top of this, I see most people having US Big law experience as well). 

[Mierce]

16 minutes ago, Deadpool said:

Get involved in clinical programs in law school. Get good grades (and do an appellate and/or SCC clerkship if you can). Try to get a government/legal aid job (ideally in a department that does more international law type work or in the field you want to specialize in). Most of the UN legal officers I know from Canada worked in legal aid and the government. A lot of the ones from the US worked in US Big law in the litigation and international arbitration groups. 

Do an LLM or another specialized master's degree from an internationally renowned school. As @CleanHands mentioned, talk to people who've done an LLM/other master's degree and worked internationally. 

Similar to the advice you will get in law school, you need to figure out an area of specialization. It is not ideal to apply to govenrment, NGOs, and international organizations with a generic resume and background. It's fine in law school but not after you've graduated and are applying to these positions as a lawyer. So start thinking about the area of law you want to specialize in in law school. 

The UN will be tough to get into without knowledge of the UN languages or a PhD. They also favour people from developing countries as you will see a lot of their employees on LinkedIn are from Africa, the Middle East, and South America. I would keep this as an alternative plan and manage your expectations. Once you have enough expeirence in a field or do a tailored LLM, you might be able to break in. If you have an interest in corporate work, you can do an LLM from a T6 school and try to get into the World Bank or International Finance Corporation in the US as well (though on top of this, I see most people having US Big law experience as well). 

Thank you! I'll definitely look into an international-focused LLM. As far as specialization, as I mentioned in my OP, I don't really know any lawyers irl. I'm not really sure what there is to specialize in other than generally corporate, litigation, and criminal. I especially don't really know what specializations are good for public int'l law. If you (or anyone else reading this) are willing to suggest specializations to look into, I'd greatly appreciate it.

[Deadpool]

31 minutes ago, Mierce said:

Thank you! I'll definitely look into an international-focused LLM. As far as specialization, as I mentioned in my OP, I don't really know any lawyers irl. I'm not really sure what there is to specialize in other than generally corporate, litigation, and criminal. I especially don't really know what specializations are good for public int'l law. If you (or anyone else reading this) are willing to suggest specializations to look into, I'd greatly appreciate it.

The way you would go about this is explore your own interests and opportunities available in law school.

Let's take an example from here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_organizations.

The International Civil Aviation Organization is located in Montreal. Already you know that you do not need to be fluent in the UN languages besides English/French to work there. I hear McGill has a good Air and Space Law LLM Program. Someone interested in this area might try to get experience working with different aviation organizations and NGOs, do an LLM/PhD from McGill, and eventually land here. 

You need a strong corporate and economics background for the World Bank and International Monetary Fund. A strong labour law background for the International Labour Organization. A strong environmental/indigenous background for the UN Environment Programme and so on. 

This is what people mean by specializing in law school. No organization does everything. When you apply to work for the government, NGOs, and international organizations, you will be applying to specific departments within these entities. And they will be assessing you for whether you have the relevant experience and academic credentials. 

It is worth noting that most jobs available in law school are not in public international law. The 2L OCI recruitment process is very corporate-heavy and the articling recruitment process in Ontario is mostly small and mid-sized firms and the MAG. Most of these jobs won't lead to the UN and other international organizations but they are still good positions to get in law school. If you really wanted to work only in the international space, I wouldn't even recommend doing a law degree. You would be better off going the PhD route or doing a master's degree at a school like Oxford or an ivy league to start. Both the government and international organizations like the UN hire more people with master's degrees and PhDs than they do lawyers. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Deadpool

[Mierce]

38 minutes ago, Deadpool said:

The way you would go about this is explore your own interests and opportunities available in law school.

Let's take an example from here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_organizations.

The International Civil Aviation Organization is located in Montreal. Already you know that you do not need to be fluent in the UN languages besides English/French to work there. I hear McGill has a good Air and Space Law LLM Program. Someone interested in this area might try to get experience working with different aviation organizations and NGOs, do an LLM/PhD from McGill, and eventually land here. 

You need a strong corporate and economics background for the World Bank and International Monetary Fund. A strong labour law background for the International Labour Organization. A strong environmental/indigenous background for the UN Environment Programme and so on. 

This is what people mean by specializing in law school. No organization does everything. When you apply to work for the government, NGOs, and international organizations, you will be applying to specific departments within these entities. And they will be assessing you for whether you have the relevant experience and academic credentials. 

It is worth noting that most jobs available in law school are not in public international law. The 2L OCI recruitment process is very corporate-heavy and the articling recruitment process in Ontario is mostly small and mid-sized firms and the MAG. Most of these jobs won't lead to the UN and other international organizations but they are still good positions to get in law school. If you really wanted to work only in the international space, I wouldn't even recommend doing a law degree. You would be better off going the PhD route or doing a master's degree at a school like Oxford or an ivy league to start. Both the government and international organizations like the UN hire more people with master's degrees and PhDs than they do lawyers. 

Thanks again. I really appreciate you taking the time to help. 

Honestly yeah, I understand there are more specialized second degrees I could be doing for international work, but part of my motivation for choosing law school was the security that if working for an IO or something doesn't work out, I can fall back on working as a lawyer. Plus my understanding is that law school is at least somewhat helpful in foreign-service-ish jobs because of the experience you gain advocating on behalf of another party (among other reasons). Working in public international law (especially at the ICJ/ICC or something like that) is my ideal scenario, but yeah I'd be more than happy to end up in a foreign service / NGO / IO type role. 

On the other hand, I'd probably be more than happy to work as a domestic government lawyer or something along those lines. The flexibility is part of what drew me to law school over something more specialized (like an MA in International Relations, for example).

I was initially drawn to the JD/MPP or JD/MGA at UofT for the same reason, but the cost difference is huge vs UBC. I think it would even be cheaper to just do my JD at UBC and then do LSE's extortionately priced 1-year MPP. A 1-year MPP could be worth a look as an alternative to an LLM in international law if I find myself leaning more towards the non-lawyer career path.

[buoy]

It sounds to me like you need to decide if you're actually interested in law, or if law is just a vehicle for you to end up working in international relations/development/policy. If you're only doing law because you think it'll help you get an interesting job in international relations, there are definitely other options that are both cheaper and more targeted toward that sort of career.

You mention doing an MPP as an alternative to an LLM, but if you're really set on working in international spaces, I'd consider swapping your timeline and doing an MPP before a law degree. If you've gotten into UBC, U of T, and Osgoode, you'd probably be a competitive candidate at schools with well-regarded MPPs like LSE, Oxford, and Sciences Po. Ya they're expensive, but when you factor in the opportunity cost of two years of lost wages if you do a JD instead of a one-year MPP, they're a hell of a lot cheaper than law school. And if you don't end up in an IO, MPPs from top schools probably have more varied and cushier "fallback" options than JDs - the public service has great pay, hours, and benefits if you're into that kind of work, and it sounds like you are. And the major consulting firms recruit pretty heavily from top MPP programs and start you off at the same rank and salary as MBAs, if you really want to swing for the big bucks. 

If you really want to do law and these international aspirations are a secondary objective, ignore what I've said. And I get that you've already applied and been accepted to law schools, so it's probably a bit late for me to throw this out there. But your posts here have given me the impression that what you're really passionate about is working in international spaces, and you see law as a relatively safe way to pursue that goal. If that's the case, I'd rethink law school

[Mierce]

7 hours ago, buoy said:

It sounds to me like you need to decide if you're actually interested in law, or if law is just a vehicle for you to end up working in international relations/development/policy. If you're only doing law because you think it'll help you get an interesting job in international relations, there are definitely other options that are both cheaper and more targeted toward that sort of career.

You mention doing an MPP as an alternative to an LLM, but if you're really set on working in international spaces, I'd consider swapping your timeline and doing an MPP before a law degree. If you've gotten into UBC, U of T, and Osgoode, you'd probably be a competitive candidate at schools with well-regarded MPPs like LSE, Oxford, and Sciences Po. Ya they're expensive, but when you factor in the opportunity cost of two years of lost wages if you do a JD instead of a one-year MPP, they're a hell of a lot cheaper than law school. And if you don't end up in an IO, MPPs from top schools probably have more varied and cushier "fallback" options than JDs - the public service has great pay, hours, and benefits if you're into that kind of work, and it sounds like you are. And the major consulting firms recruit pretty heavily from top MPP programs and start you off at the same rank and salary as MBAs, if you really want to swing for the big bucks. 

If you really want to do law and these international aspirations are a secondary objective, ignore what I've said. And I get that you've already applied and been accepted to law schools, so it's probably a bit late for me to throw this out there. But your posts here have given me the impression that what you're really passionate about is working in international spaces, and you see law as a relatively safe way to pursue that goal. If that's the case, I'd rethink law school

You might be right, but I do think that between law and policy, I gravitate more towards law as a field. My IR degree has been great and I've learned a lot, but my favourite classes were generally more international-law-focused than social-sciences-focused. I write a mean literature review, but I'm not sure I see myself researching policy rather than dealing with existing law (or multilateral treaties as the case may be).

I also appreciate the vote of confidence, but my undergrad GPA isn't great. My LSAT score is what carried me to these acceptances (maybe with the exception of UBC, who uses percentage cGPA instead of out of 4.0), so I'm not sure I'd be aiming as high as you think for an MPP program.

Honestly this thread has given me a ton to think about. I think overall I'm leaning towards doing the UBC JD to reduce my debt load (which has been the resounding CLF consensus lol) and then looking at an LLM in international law. @CleanHands got me (excitedly) looking into different options, and it looks like Leiden University has a pretty good program in that field that leverages the university's proximity to The Hague for internship opportunities, etc. Plus, for a fun bonus, Leiden is one of UBC's options for study abroad, so I could potentially trial it in 3L.

I appreciate everyone's input. It's been incredibly helpful in working out what I want from my career. Plus, hey -- maybe I'll discover I really really love litigation in law school and finding a way to make a career out of international law won't be an issue lol.