U of T vs. UBC

[sufferingstudent]

Hey everyone! I appreciate all of your opinions in advance. 🙂

I'm a first gen law student so I'm really struggling with figuring out where to go without any experience in this! I was accepted to both UBC and U of T back in November/December and I still feel no closer to making a decision about which to go to, but acceptance deadlines are rapidly approaching which is frightening. 

I'm leaning towards business law, but I also have an interest in environmental/natural resources law (on a previous post I've heard that the latter isn't really great at either school, which is fine - my undergrad major was in business so business law interests me a lot). I don't have any law connections through family/friends or anything to talk to so I'm not entirely sure, but from my own research I think I'm good with entering biglaw after graduation if I can. I'll be fully funding this degree myself through savings, loans, and (hopefully) scholarships and bursaries. 

Benefits/drawbacks of U of T:

• Possibility of working in New York & closer to Bay Street during the recruitment period.
• More prestigious and higher-ranked than UBC.
• HUGE student loan and line of credit debt (from my calculations it will leave me with about twice the debt on my SPLOC).
• I've never been to Toronto so I'm not sure if I want to work there, and its farther from family.

Benefits/drawbacks of UBC:

• Closer to Alberta (where I'm from) so easier to go back and forth to see family, and I could bring my car. 
• Tuition is less than half of the price of U of T. 
• I'm unfamiliar what the biglaw landscape looks like (is there like a "Bay Street" equivalent in Vancouver?).
• I've only been to Vancouver once, but I know a few people who live there and love it.

Of course everyone's path is different, but I would love to hear what anyone else would choose! Or please call me out if any of my points above are dumb. Thank you! 🙂 

(Also - is it a bad thing or possible to accept both and then withdraw from one later? Not sure if that's an okay thing to do but it would give me a lot more time to decide and hopefully visit the campuses which I think would really help)

 

[Pendragon]

Most Big law firms in Toronto have offices in Vancouver and other locations. You can google these firms and see where their offices are located.

[lawstudentss]

Following bc I would also be curious to hear the answer to the acceptances question you asked.

[Rashabon]

Unless you were dead set on New York, I would go to UBC in your circumstances. Even Toronto is attainable from UBC. But Vancouver does have its own "Bay Street" so to speak and given the diversification of BC's economy over the years, the work is not limited to mining and forestry. Mining is still big out in Vancouver the way oil & gas is in Calgary and financial services is in BC, but BC has a lot of tech and other industries.

Many of the big law firms have offices in Vancouver as noted above, and Vancouver has a number of powerhouse regional firms that do great work as well, and the equivalent of some of the firms headquartered in Toronto that don't have a national presence.

U of T is going to significantly increase your debt load and it doesn't sound like you're wedded to living in Toronto, which would be the only real factor here that would make a compelling difference. That or New York. UBC -> New York is doable, especially if are hired at a big law firm first, but it is definitely easier from U of T.

[99problems]

1 hour ago, sufferingstudent said:

More prestigious and higher-ranked than UBC.

Since you asked, I must say that this point is kinda dumb. Prestige wanes as soon as you enter law school. 

 

The most important factor in your decision-making process must be the place you intend to practice: if you want to work in Vancouver, go to UBC; if you want to work in Toronto, choose UofT.

1 hour ago, sufferingstudent said:

its farther from family

You may not care about this now, but at some point, it will become a significant aspect of your life.

 

1 hour ago, sufferingstudent said:

I'm leaning towards business law, but I also have an interest in environmental/natural resources law

Generally, folks here agree that if you do not plan to go to business law, UofT's tuition is not justified. So if you're on the fence, maybe choose UBC.

1 hour ago, sufferingstudent said:

I'm unfamiliar what the biglaw landscape looks like (is there like a "Bay Street" equivalent in Vancouver?)

Burrard St, Howe St, and West Georgia St are where the big law firms in Vancouver are located. I don't think there is a street in Vancouver that is synonymous to BigLaw. But, like Toronto, almost all of big firms are in downtown.

[Rashabon]

9 minutes ago, not not a lawyer said:

Since you asked, I must say that this point is kinda dumb. Prestige wanes as soon as you enter law school. 

 

The most important factor in your decision-making process must be the place you intend to practice: if you want to work in Vancouver, go to UBC; if you want to work in Toronto, choose UofT.

You may not care about this now, but at some point, it will become a significant aspect of your life.

 

Generally, folks here agree that if you do not plan to go to business law, UofT's tuition is not justified. So if you're on the fence, maybe choose UBC.

Burrard St, Howe St, and West Georgia St are where the big law firms in Vancouver are located. I don't think there is a street in Vancouver that is synonymous to BigLaw. But, like Toronto, almost all of big firms are in downtown.

I disagree on prestige waning the way you suggest. It's not as important, but "prestige" is really a proxy for "quality of student body and outcomes" and there's no question that U of T does better than Windsor or that UBC does better than TRU in competitive areas.

Environmental and natural resource law largely is "business law". Outside of maybe advising a band on an MOU with a mining company or a consultation process (which is often done by the big firms anyway), there's almost nothing in "natural resources law" that isn't just business/big law. Same with environmental.

There are a few "Bay Street" firms that aren't on Bay or even close to it. It's just a nickname, like Wall Street.

[CheeseToast]

Where do you want to work? Probably just go there

[99problems]

1 hour ago, Rashabon said:

I disagree on prestige waning the way you suggest. It's not as important, but "prestige" is really a proxy for "quality of student body and outcomes" and there's no question that U of T does better than Windsor or that UBC does better than TRU in competitive areas.

I agree with you. But other than some schools, like Windsor and TRU as you suggested, I think most schools are considered to be on par with others. I remember when I was making my choice I asked the same question in the other forum we had, and the general consensus was that there is no tier list for law schools in Canada like there is in the US.

[sufferingstudent]

1 hour ago, Rashabon said:

Unless you were dead set on New York, I would go to UBC in your circumstances. Even Toronto is attainable from UBC. But Vancouver does have its own "Bay Street" so to speak and given the diversification of BC's economy over the years, the work is not limited to mining and forestry. Mining is still big out in Vancouver the way oil & gas is in Calgary and financial services is in BC, but BC has a lot of tech and other industries.

Many of the big law firms have offices in Vancouver as noted above, and Vancouver has a number of powerhouse regional firms that do great work as well, and the equivalent of some of the firms headquartered in Toronto that don't have a national presence.

U of T is going to significantly increase your debt load and it doesn't sound like you're wedded to living in Toronto, which would be the only real factor here that would make a compelling difference. That or New York. UBC -> New York is doable, especially if are hired at a big law firm first, but it is definitely easier from U of T.

Ah thank you, this is super insightful!

1 hour ago, not not a lawyer said:

Since you asked, I must say that this point is kinda dumb. Prestige wanes as soon as you enter law school. 

 

The most important factor in your decision-making process must be the place you intend to practice: if you want to work in Vancouver, go to UBC; if you want to work in Toronto, choose UofT.

You may not care about this now, but at some point, it will become a significant aspect of your life.

 

Generally, folks here agree that if you do not plan to go to business law, UofT's tuition is not justified. So if you're on the fence, maybe choose UBC.

Burrard St, Howe St, and West Georgia St are where the big law firms in Vancouver are located. I don't think there is a street in Vancouver that is synonymous to BigLaw. But, like Toronto, almost all of big firms are in downtown.

This is super helpful, thank you!

Yeah the prestige thing is definitely a dumb little mental roadblock I've put up in my head - I think UBC is where I want to go (and it sounds like I got some validation that's its a good choice for me!) but I feel almost guilty about turning down what is considered probably the top law school in Canada. 😅  But like you said, I thiiiiiink I would be more likely to practice in B.C. so it makes sense to go to UBC!

[Darth Vader]

12 minutes ago, sufferingstudent said:

Ah thank you, this is super insightful!

This is super helpful, thank you!

Yeah the prestige thing is definitely a dumb little mental roadblock I've put up in my head - I think UBC is where I want to go (and it sounds like I got some validation that's its a good choice for me!) but I feel almost guilty about turning down what is considered probably the top law school in Canada. 😅  But like you said, I thiiiiiink I would be more likely to practice in B.C. so it makes sense to go to UBC!

You're overthinking this for no reason. You're not comparing U of T to Western here. Arguably, U of T, UBC, Osgoode, and  McGill are considered the best schools in Canada and people turn down U of T to attend one of these other schools all the time. People also turn down U of T to go to an out of province regional school if they are from there and would like to stay and work near home. 

Most importantly, the actual area of law you want to pursue is where the majority of U of T and UBC students end up going into. The employment statistics is all you really need to look at to verify this. If U of T was a superior school for the area of law you want to pursue, then it might make sense to turn down UBC to go there. But business law is a vast field and I find that most students at every law school go into this field or civil litigation. 

https://canlawforum.com/topic/1704-how-difficult-is-it-to-get-a-job-in-toronto-from-an-out-of-province-school/?do=findComment&comment=17442

https://www.law.utoronto.ca/student-life/career-development-office/career-statistics

[Rashabon]

1 hour ago, not not a lawyer said:

I agree with you. But other than some schools, like Windsor and TRU as you suggested, I think most schools are considered to be on par with others. I remember when I was making my choice I asked the same question in the other forum we had, and the general consensus was that there is no tier list for law schools in Canada like there is in the US.

I'm not sure I agree and it's a bit of a nuanced discussion. There are no tiers like in the US where going to certain schools is just an absolute waste of money for the most part. We don't have a Cooley for example. But there are at least two or three relative tiers of schools at the top of end. The difference is that going to a lower tiered school is likely not going to prohibit you from a very good outcome. But it will negatively impact your ability to obtain an excellent outcome. SCC hiring is just one example. Certain schools place better than others. Same with top tier big law. It absolutely creates a tier of outcomes, but again, that's largely only relevant to marginal (on the top end) candidates. Your average candidate isn't gunning for an SCC clerkship or to work in New York right out of school.

[CheeseToast]

1 hour ago, Darth Vader said:

Arguably, U of T, UBC, Osgoode, and  McGill are considered the best schools in Canada and people turn down U of T to attend one of these other schools all the time. People also turn down U of T to go to an out of province regional school if they are from there and would like to stay and work near home. 

To add on to this, I know people who turned down UofT because they received academic scholarships at other schools that outdid the aid UofT would provide. 

[togetic]

I agree with people who are suggesting that UBC sounds right for you, but I think in addition to asking yourself the difficult question of where you'd want to work and what type of work you want to do, I also think you need to ask yourself how sure you are of where you want to work and what you want to do. 

Most of the people I know who have entered law school has changed their mind on what they want to practice. They have found course they thought they'd love to be really boring. And if you're not sure you're going to end up in Vancouver or New York or Toronto I think it may be worth it to go to the school that opens the most doors for you. This is obviously considering that debt closes a lot of doors too.

I think you have a really exciting decision! I would suggest that you make your decisions not out of the fear of turning down a prestigious school or the fear of smaller market but rather really be honest and dig deep about the things that would make you happy. And remember that few decisions you make are as permanent as we think they are.

[Dnian]

I'm a fellow law school admit who also made it into U of T, and ended up turning it down. I think it would be a mistake to accept tens of thousands of dollars in additional debt to go to U of T, unless you're actually motivated by something concrete career-wise. By that I mean: not just prestige or a vague possibility of an international/U.S. shift, but for example, something more like a steadfast commitment to U of T OCI and to Bay Street as your career launchpad. That's the only realistic way you're going to be able to pay off the debt and make good value on the much higher cost of the degree. 

So, if you're not 100% sold on starting your career in Toronto Big Law, I wouldn't go with U of T. As others have said, it seems to be more than possible (even if marginally more difficult) to enter Toronto Biglaw from most other average-or-above law schools throughout the country, and people do it all the time. If you're not 100% sure about the only reasons that could possibly make U of T worthwhile (Toronto BigLaw / New York), why take the financial risk when those things are still possible to do from another school, even if very slightly less common on average? 

But that was just the thought process I went through. Either way, I'm sure you'll end up with a healthy career. Good luck to us both OP!

[Arrowtotheny]

If this helps, after went through a similar thought process as @Dnian, I also recently turned down UofT to attend Uvic. Admittedly, I am dead set on not doing big law, and more or less made my decision with the calculated risk that I can secure a public interest job regardless of which school I attend.

For me, I think the decision comes down to how risk-averse vs. cost-averse you are. The consensus on the forum seems to be that most outcomes in Canada are attainable from any average-or-above school. Going to UofT, then, merely expands your absolute highest limit (e.g., SCC clerkship/NYC big law) and moderately elevates your lower limit (i.e., more chances at big law even with poor grades). I don't know about you, but I am not paying 60k for that in my early 20s. If I end up being a medalist, I would probably have a good life with or without SCC clerkship. If I end up being at the bottom of my class, I might not be sure if law is for me. Having an extra 60k would allow me to be nimble and pursue other things in life. 

You seem more inclined toward big law than I am, so my deliberation process might not be applicable to your situation. But I think UBC is also considered a much more prestigious school than UVic for big law. Had I not been a moron and missed the application deadline, I would certainly pick UBC over UofT even if I was into big law. 

I thought I would share my thought process just in case any of this is useful. I hope you consider all the relevant factors and make the best decision for yourself. You might also want to think more about where you want to practice. I think knowing that I want to practice in BC for sure really helped me make the decision. Vancouver is a truly amazing city, even more so if you are a bigshot lawyer who can actually afford a house. 

 

[Darth Vader]

@Arrowtotheny considering the fact that there are not many public interest jobs in BC and you want to practice in BC for sure, you probably made the right call not to go to U of T for this. I can't find a career report for UVic but I imagine it is very similar to UBC's - https://canlawforum.com/topic/1704-how-difficult-is-it-to-get-a-job-in-toronto-from-an-out-of-province-school/page/2/#comment-17442.

 

[bigtruss]

On 2/20/2022 at 4:02 AM, Arrowtotheny said:

Vancouver is a truly amazing city, even more so if you are a bigshot lawyer who can actually afford a house. 

 

I think this response was on point overall but important caveat here imo (even if you might have been half-joking). Working as a biglaw associate in Vancouver alone is not going to allow you to afford a house. It will likely allow you to rent a nice studio and enjoy the city (which is generally a nice place) without stressing too much about money. The city has the second highest home price to average salary ratio in the entire world.

I'm from Van and have friends who work in trades or for municipalities and they make the same amount (sometimes more) than my friends who are associates at Seven Sisters firms downtown. Some people will see you as a big shot lawyer but most people probably won't care. 

[Arrowtotheny]

5 hours ago, bigtruss said:

I think this response was on point overall but important caveat here imo (even if you might have been half-joking). Working as a biglaw associate in Vancouver alone is not going to allow you to afford a house

You are totally correct. I think my point (without the hyperbole) was somewhat similar. Vancouver is a amazing city for those who can afford it, and it is an impossible place for the middle class. Life gets better the more "big shot" one becomes because the city caters to the wealthy. This could be a positive for OP if they plan on staying in big law for 10+ years. 

I do find it funny that "the top 10% should be able to afford a house" has to be a hyperbole. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

Vancouver is expensive, but it isn’t “big law associates can only afford to rent a studio apartment” expensive.

A big law associate living alone in Vancouver can easily afford to rent a nice one bedroom apartment, and after a few years would likely be able to purchase a studio condo independently (assuming they went to a BC school, if they went out east you’re probably pushing the purchase back 3-4 years as you pay off your debt). 

[bigtruss]

9 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Vancouver is expensive, but it isn’t “big law associates can only afford to rent a studio apartment” expensive.

A big law associate living alone in Vancouver can easily afford to rent a nice one bedroom apartment, and after a few years would likely be able to purchase a studio condo independently (assuming they went to a BC school, if they went out east you’re probably pushing the purchase back 3-4 years as you pay off your debt). 

Depending on how frugally they live a 1BR instead of a studio is clearly not off the table but buying a studio condo (which isn't a house) after a few years isn't easy.

You have to start off articling for 10 months and are probably breaking even for that stretch. My friends in biglaw were starting at 90-95k which is 65-70k after taxes. Rent for a nice studio downtown was 1700-2100 a month. It's a bit less if you move a little further out but then you might take on the expenses of a car, insurance, gas etc, and are adding commuting time to a job with long hours.

You're looking at 45k a year after taxes/shelter and before any student loans (undergrad and law), groceries (expensive), eating out (expensive), TFSA and RRSP contributions (probably a good idea), travel (probably more fun at this age before you have a ton of responsibilities) etc.

An old studio condo is like 300k. Not a lot of people at age 30 who just spent a few grueling years in biglaw are happy to enter that segment of the housing market. An actual house starts at like 1.2mil in the cheaper suburbs (likely long commute).

Even the condo is a stretch to do in "a few" years despite movement up the salary scale and you'll want more space if you're looking to settle down by then. You're out of the market for a house and most any property you take a mortgage out on is going to restrict you financially for a period of decades regardless of whether you like it as a long term home. It also likely locks you into a job that is hard work and has a high attrition rate. 

There are lots of ways to make it work if it's what you want, but biglaw in Vancouver is not in and of itself a golden ticket to a nice life and it's not sufficient to get you a house.

[BlockedQuebecois]

31 minutes ago, bigtruss said:

Depending on how frugally they live a 1BR instead of a studio is clearly not off the table…

You're looking at 45k a year after taxes/shelter…

$45,000 in post-tax, post-housing income is not “frugal” by any definition, and the suggestion that it is is, quite frankly, absurd. 

Big law in Vancouver is absolutely, without a doubt, a ticket to a nice life from a financial perspective. There are trade offs that might make it less attractive to some, but anybody who says big law lawyers are not set for a solid life financially lacks a shocking amount of perspective.