New mom, should I go to Law School?

[Lulu_spector]

Please read this until the end.  I need insight and help from this community so that I can make the most strategic decision for my life. 

I was a mature university student and graduated 2020. The goal was always law school. With a baby on the way during the pandemic I was going to give up. When baby was born I was ashamed of not having a future and a home for baby. I’m about to turn 40 years old. 

Issue: Me and my husband & baby live in my parents basement. We can’t afford a place of our own or a home with one income. I told myself that law school was a way that I could help get us forward in life. 

After birth, I studied so hard and managed to get into law school that is 1-1.5 hours away (toronto region). I am so grateful … but I’m also frightened of the reality😔 

Worries: the commute from Guelph to Toronto via car or Go will be tough and cause a lot of challenges with childcare. I don’t have help and support as I’m the main caretaker. My husband works a physical job and long hours and my parents are older with a disability.

I am worried of the true hustle this path requires. It feels impossible while being a mother. I am a passionate, determined, and focused student, but this is a different personality than being a mother — the 2 paths have different energies and behaviours and they don’t mix. As a law student, I’ll be aggressive in energy and selfish to get ahead and “win” for my family. Masculine energy to the max!  Being a mother requires slower movements, more feminine energy, a calm demeanour, and a nurturing approach to everything. Both are who I am, but the first one has to be the dominant one if I go to law school. Otherwise, what would be the point if I don’t try to be the best and network myself for the best opportunities with a $150K debt?

Question: Is law school & the lawyer path worth the it? Worth sacrificing raising my own child? Is this path worth the investment of time, money, and health?
 

The reality is that being a mother has changed my priorities, but I’m also poor and desperate… so getting IN is an opportunity of a lifetime for me and my family. I’m turning 40 soon😬 
 

Currently, I have started a writing business focused on copywriting, editing services, and content writing. I love writing and it is giving me ideas about possibly having a way to make money and be at home raising baby until age 4-5. 

I need genuine guidance please. I have to pay my seat deposit on or before April 1st and I’m confused and broke which makes rational decision making challenging!  

Areas of Law: I’m a natural communicator, writer, problem solver, exceptional sales skills, high empathy skills, and able to mediate and resolve issues. I connect with people and build relationships fast. I also possess high entrepreneurial capabilities. The areas of law I would like to practice are advocacy for startups and womens healfh, litigation, family law, contractual work for a variety of business and startup needs. I want to speak on behalf of organizations that cannot or don’t want to speak for themselves. This can change of course. 

[NowOrNever]

Maybe defer for one year so you can be more prepared?

[Hegdis]

A huge factor which you have left out is whether you have got any scholarships or bursaries or family help.  Law school debt is a big part of this - practically speaking it takes between five and ten years AFTER you graduate to wipe it out. By which time you will be nearing 50 and your kid will be a tween. The number one thing for you is to minimize debt at the outset - can you keep it to a manageable level?

Second thing - all this about feminine and masculine energy - if that’s the lens you have for life, fine. But please don’t assume law school will demand some kind of macho throat cutting look-out-for-#1 approach. A collaborative and supportive approach is just as common and just as effective. Applicants have so little to go on when imagining life in law school they often get very caught up in their personality type and think it’s a big factor. It’s not. Law school has all kinds. 
 

Biggest skills you actually need:

1. Ability to organize your time

2. Ability to manage your stress

3. Flexibility when it comes to your career (ie a lot of people are Bay all the way but they actually loathe business law and would be much happier doing something else).

[Lulu_spector]

@HegdisThank you Hegdis! I haven’t applied for any scholarships or bursary’s and no money in the family aside from diaper and food help. I’ll get on the scholarship money train though!

Thank you so much for your insight 🙂 My lens for the world isn’t black & white, but I believe in order to make a lot of money one has to be very intense about it 😆 but I say that from a perspective of low income right now. Maybe it’s not true. 
 

What areas of law are the most lucrative and don’t require 10-15 hour days?

[Hegdis]

Nearly any area of law can be quite lucrative - but you don't make bank until you've been doing it for a decade or more. There's no magic answer to that. Nearly everywhere you're going to spend your first 3-5 years working a lot, until you have achieved the experience level you need to reduce your hours without losing your effectiveness as counsel.

 

Other ways to approach what you want to do are to consider these questions:

1. do I want to build or tear down?

2. do I want to speak or write?

3. do I want to run a business or be an employee?

4. do I need to live in a city?

5. do I need a lot of facetime with clients to feel engaged?

6. can I compartmentalize other people's stress / emotions effectively?

7. am I happier doing a handful of things over and over until perfected or do I like casting my net wide for different experiences?

Answers to these questions will indicate if you're more of a litigator or a solicitor, if you would be fine working in a large firm or for a large company versus dealing one-on-one with people who come specifically to you. Areas of law are also indicated - can you deal, day in and out, with clients breaking down in your office? Is setting up a general practise in a small community feasible? Etc. (Note that this is about spending more time or less time on these aspects - litigators do write, and big firm employees do meet with clients, for example.)

As you have already (wisely) stated, your intentions can change - so some of this is just offered as a more helpful perspective to keep in mind.

[Gamgee]

Does your undergraduate university degree provide you with opportunities to enter the job market now? Law school is not the only way to make a great living, there are many other professions you can pursue without saddling yourself with $100K+ debt (if that's what you're estimating it will take to complete law school). 

I can't comment on if becoming a lawyer is worth the sacrifices with your particular circumstances, but there are so many alternatives to a law career where you can find fulfillment and a work-life balance that works for you (business operations, marketing, HR, government). 

Also of note, many of the higher paying law jobs may require you to sacrifice some work-life balance, especially at the beginning. 

 

[123]

4 minutes ago, Hegdis said:

1. do I want to build or tear down?

2. do I want to speak or write?

3. do I want to run a business or be an employee?

4. do I need to live in a city?

5. do I need a lot of facetime with clients to feel engaged?

6. can I compartmentalize other people's stress / emotions effectively?

7. am I happier doing a handful of things over and over until perfected or do I like casting my net wide for different experiences?

Also, related to number 6, do I want sophisticated, often institutional clients, or individual, often more vulnerable clients?

[GGrievous]

Based on what you’ve shared it seems like pursuing this would set you up for a very high stress, and very challenging next 5-10 years. I have no doubt that you could do it, I have no doubt that you’d be a terrific lawyer. I do think it’s a lot to give up, and a lot to take on. I have single moms in my class that are doing it, I have no clue how, but they’re doing it and killing it. I have students in my class over 40 that are doing it. It can be done. I think it’s important to be realistic about what will be on the other end of the journey, and if having that is worth it.
 

This is just my experience but if I didn’t have very specific goals that absolutely required a law degree there would be no way I would still be in law school. It’s just about the worst place that exists. Take me back to tech life! 

[CheeseToast]

Lots of happy women/moms in government. 

[CleanHands]

2 minutes ago, Barry said:

This is just my experience but if I didn’t have very specific goals that absolutely required a law degree there would be no way I would still be in law school. It’s just about the worst place that exists.

Once you gain some perspective by working in crim law and seeing what other peoples' lives are like, please revisit this statement and tell me how ridiculous you feel in retrospect for having written it.

[GGrievous]

Just now, CleanHands said:

Once you gain some perspective by working in crim law and seeing what other peoples' lives are like, please revisit this statement and tell me how ridiculous you feel in retrospect for having written it.

I have plenty of perspective, you have no clue. I thought the hyperbole would be clear. 

[CheeseToast]

1 minute ago, Barry said:

I have plenty of perspective, you have no clue. I thought the hyperbole would be clear. 

Your hyperbole would strike anyone with “plenty of perspective” as dumb. 

[Hegdis]

Let’s keep the “gotcha” out of this thread. Pretty clear when a person is exaggerating and not acutely serious. 

[GGrievous]

8 minutes ago, CheeseToast said:

Your hyperbole would strike anyone with “plenty of perspective” as dumb. 

yes I literally think law school is worse than being homeless, or in a war zone. Not like i've ever experienced one of these myself, or not that it's my motivation for going to the worst place that exists. 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Barry

[Hegdis]

For example, I have been known to describe pistachio ice cream as The Worst. 

[GGrievous]

2 minutes ago, Hegdis said:

For example, I have been known to describe pistachio ice cream as The Worst. 

well that's just accurate. 

[CleanHands]

11 minutes ago, Barry said:

I have plenty of perspective, you have no clue.

I had a response to this, but I will refrain from posting it in this specific thread (I suspect it will arise in another more appropriate thread at some point) in light of this:

9 minutes ago, Hegdis said:

Let’s keep the “gotcha” out of this thread.

As for this:

11 minutes ago, Barry said:

I thought the hyperbole would be clear. 

9 minutes ago, Hegdis said:

Pretty clear when a person is exaggerating and not acutely serious. 

Hyperbole about how bad law school is is unhelpful in response to someone in the OP's position asking for input about whether to attend law school.

And while I obviously detected the hyperbole, even that of course only makes sense if it's based on some underlying truth about law school being "bad, but not *that* bad." In reality for many people it is one of the easiest and less stressful periods of their lives. There are no bosses to answer to (a prof grading one exam or paper a term doesn't count). There is no micromanagement. Accommodations are available. There is a choose-your-own-adventure aspect to it. The demands are far less unpleasant than those that are asked of people in the vast majority of jobs.

Mileage will vary of course. Exam periods and recruits can be stressful. Approaching graduation without articles would be rough. But I have to push back against creating a gloomy and doomy image of law school to someone who is considering it. It's equally accurate to say that for many people it's akin to a three year vacation (but I wouldn't generalize about that being the case either because as I said, YMMV).

Edited February 25, 2022 by CleanHands

[Hegdis]

 I think we can all communicate disagreement here without jumping on isolated phrases. Let’s move on. 

[GGrievous]

jesus... 

 

anyway OP i'm sorry that my post lead to that absurd derailment. Like I said in my post, there are people that are more likely to relate to your situation (e.g. mom's and mature students), that are doing it and killing it. I think a lot of the realities have been brought up by more experienced people in this thread, and I think you're likely aware of them. I just wanted to wish you luck.

[Lawllapalooza]

 

2 hours ago, Lulu_spector said:

Question: Is law school & the lawyer path worth the it? Worth sacrificing raising my own child? Is this path worth the investment of time, money, and health?

I am not a parent. I am not a spouse. I am not a mature student. Hell, I am not even a lawyer. I will readily admit that I'm in no position to provide advice to you with regards to what decision you should make. That said, I do feel equipped to make a few comments that I hope will help support you in your decision-making process.

1. This decision is personal. My main suggestion is to take the advice given with a grain of salt. Even those who are parents, spouses, mature students or lawyers cannot say how you personally would fare, and whether you would feel regret for your decision, either way. You posed a specific question (quoted above), but the answer to this depends largely on you. For you is it worth it (financially, emotionally, etc.)? We do not know your financial alternatives or the emotional toll that your decision may take on you, regardless of what you decide. So it's tricky to provide advice beyond personal tales/anecdotes. One person in your position may feel it is/was worth it, another may disagree. One person may feel emotionally fulfilled by law, another may feel emotionally depleted. 

2. I wouldn't weigh the options equally on a scale. I am not at all suggesting that you do not start law school, but I will go so far as to suggest one should not (IMO) start law school if they remain unsure about the decision. I would say a 51% feeling in favour isn't enough. There is a difference between being stressed or worried and being unsure, and I think that if by the time tuition is due you are still struggling to decide, that you may find yourself feeling regret over taking on a large financial and time commitment. You mentioned being "poor and desperate". Law school will only increase financial insecurity for at least the next few years (students can get loans but of course it's not a handout). So I'd be weary to romanticize it as the answer to your problems. 

3. Take your time to decide. Law school isn't going anywhere. I know that you put in a lot of time and energy (and application costs) to get to where you are now. Being accepted into law school is an accomplishment and you should be proud. I also know that you're older than the average law student and may have a "now or never" feeling. That said, delaying by a year or two beats doing something you aren't ready for, ten times out of ten. You don't need to go just because you got accepted. The only thing you need to do is decide whether it feels right and makes sense for you and your family for you to start law school this September. 

4. There may be no right or wrong decision. Finally, I think it's important to hear this: Choosing to forego law school, to spend more time with your baby is the decision of a caring mother. Choosing to attend law school to help afford a life for your baby is also the decision of a caring mother. Being in your parent's basement, a new mom, and strapped for cash is a hard position to be in. You are clearly thinking of your little one, and the sacrifices you make either way will not break you. 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Lawllapalooza

[Possum]

Hi Lulu
I don't have any knowledge of life as a law student, I have applied for my first time this year.  I just wanted to speak up as a 40-something woman looking at diving back into school.  It sounds like you have a lot on your plate, and are feeling a real sense of urgency to make a great life for your young one.
I just wanted to suggest that this passion and energy won't fade over the next few years.  Perhaps when your little one is closer to school age, child care might be less challenging to arrange. 
That said, I do understand the sense of urgency.  I have found myself counting the potential years of this third (or fourth?) career path before I want to retire.
Maybe jumping in is the best decision for you.
Whatever you decide, I admire your drive.  Good luck to you!
 

[unknown24]

Nothing necessarily constructive to add to your decision... but just wanted to say (from one mature student/mother to another) the fact that you are doing the (arguably) toughest/greatest job in the world all the while contemplating going to law school and have been accepted none the less! is incredible and you will find what works for you, your life, and your family. Kids are extremely resilient and they might not understand while young but will grow up to understand all of the sacrifices you made for them. My children and I lived at my parents for a long while and as much as I felt shame and embarrassment because it was not society's ideal view of a 30 year old mother, my kids cherished their time when they got to live with their grandparents. Make sure to check out the prospective child care assistance your school has to offer - many schools are open and willing to work with mothers to make life a bit easier. For example, my aunt went to Dal and her professors let her sit in an adjacent room with a baby monitor so she could attend her classes and her baby could feed or cry or fuss in peace and she wouldn't miss a beat. 🤗

Edited February 25, 2022 by unknown24

[qsizzle]

Wow what an amazing story! I admire your ambition.

How far along are you? Do you have your undergrad/LSAT complete?

And many schools, (especially Osgoode) have low income/necessity funding. Your story sounds like it would work well with their ideals should you choose to attend.

[Lulu_spector]

57 minutes ago, Hegdis said:

Nearly any area of law can be quite lucrative - but you don't make bank until you've been doing it for a decade or more. There's no magic answer to that. Nearly everywhere you're going to spend your first 3-5 years working a lot, until you have achieved the experience level you need to reduce your hours without losing your effectiveness as counsel.

 

Other ways to approach what you want to do are to consider these questions:

1. do I want to build or tear down?

2. do I want to speak or write?

3. do I want to run a business or be an employee?

4. do I need to live in a city?

5. do I need a lot of facetime with clients to feel engaged?

6. can I compartmentalize other people's stress / emotions effectively?

7. am I happier doing a handful of things over and over until perfected or do I like casting my net wide for different experiences?

Answers to these questions will indicate if you're more of a litigator or a solicitor, if you would be fine working in a large firm or for a large company versus dealing one-on-one with people who come specifically to you. Areas of law are also indicated - can you deal, day in and out, with clients breaking down in your office? Is setting up a general practise in a small community feasible? Etc. (Note that this is about spending more time or less time on these aspects - litigators do write, and big firm employees do meet with clients, for example.)

As you have already (wisely) stated, your intentions can change - so some of this is just offered as a more helpful perspective to keep in mind.

WOW!!! You are a good and smart human. Thank you for this. I want to write mostly and speak. I also realized I don’t know the difference between a litigator and solicitor to know where my answers point to. 
 

I assume, given some of your ideas here, that a litigator is mostly impersonal and will speak more in court. Whereas a solicitor, albeit not black and white, works closer with clients one on one? 
 

I can handle breakdowns, but I do not want dangerous clients. I also don’t see how I can have capital for a brick & mortar business with heavy debt 🤔 

I want to work independently, be left alone, not micromanaged, write a lot, talk and champion for causes and organizations when needed, and be a legal expert pertaining to advocacy and individual and business/startup rights. I’m wondering if a law degree is the only path to this.

Regardless, with a heavier technological world, I want to establish my work mostly from my laptop and/or court if needed. I don’t need to see clients to feel engaged but I am a communicator and love convincing, selling, and persuading, motivating, and negotiating. I would love to focus on a word or sentence in a document and argue back orally or written 😂 
 

Thoughts? And wow your questions are epic, I am so grateful for your time @Hegdis

[Lulu_spector]

1 hour ago, Barry said:

Based on what you’ve shared it seems like pursuing this would set you up for a very high stress, and very challenging next 5-10 years. I have no doubt that you could do it, I have no doubt that you’d be a terrific lawyer. I do think it’s a lot to give up, and a lot to take on. I have single moms in my class that are doing it, I have no clue how, but they’re doing it and killing it. I have students in my class over 40 that are doing it. It can be done. I think it’s important to be realistic about what will be on the other end of the journey, and if having that is worth it.
 

This is just my experience but if I didn’t have very specific goals that absolutely required a law degree there would be no way I would still be in law school. It’s just about the worst place that exists. Take me back to tech life! 

@Barry you’re so kind for replying and offering some insight. 
 

I want to work on my laptop at lot and write a lot and champion & do advocacy work for issues/causes, people, startups and businesses. Trying to think if there are other ways to do this. Masters? Phd and then consulting?? Sigh.. I don’t want to chase dreams, I want concrete goals with something that can help me win the end financially and peacefully. 
 

All I know is struggle so I can struggle, but like you said, in such a powerful way, what’s on the end has to be worth it. I have no lawyer family members .. I don’t know what’s on the end. It’s all mystery 😂 

Why is it the worse place to be 😂 what’s your reason being there?

 

thanks again 🙂 

25 minutes ago, qsizzle said:

Wow what an amazing story! I admire your ambition.

How far along are you? Do you have your undergrad/LSAT complete?

And many schools, (especially Osgoode) have low income/necessity funding. Your story sounds like it would work well with their ideals should you choose to attend.

Wow thank you! I have gotten into law school already for 2022. My concern is whether it is worth daycare costs and losing out on my baby and being a mother 😔 I’m just scared, unsure, and hesitant whether my goals will be realistic (coming out financially in debt but making enough for it to be worth it). What has been your experience thus far? 

47 minutes ago, unknown24 said:

Nothing necessarily constructive to add to your decision... but just wanted to say (from one mature student/mother to another) the fact that you are doing the (arguably) toughest/greatest job in the world all the while contemplating going to law school and have been accepted none the less! is incredible and you will find what works for you, your life, and your family. Kids are extremely resilient and they might not understand while young but will grow up to understand all of the sacrifices you made for them. My children and I lived at my parents for a long while and as much as I felt shame and embarrassment because it was not society's ideal view of a 30 year old mother, my kids cherished their time when they got to live with their grandparents. Make sure to check out the prospective child care assistance your school has to offer - many schools are open and willing to work with mothers to make life a bit easier. For example, my aunt went to Dal and her professors let her sit in an adjacent room with a baby monitor so she could attend her classes and her baby could feed or cry or fuss in peace and she wouldn't miss a beat. 🤗

@unknown24 wow wow wow … thank you for this!!! It gives me hope. It’s tough to find hope sometimes when our life seems so complex, and your answer has calmed and helped. Thank you 🙏🏽