New mom, should I go to Law School?

[Lulu_spector]

1 hour ago, Lawllapalooza said:

 

I am not a parent. I am not a spouse. I am not a mature student. Hell, I am not even a lawyer. I will readily admit that I'm in no position to provide advice to you with regards to what decision you should make. That said, I do feel equipped to make a few comments that I hope will help support you in your decision-making process.

1. This decision is personal. My main suggestion is to take the advice given with a grain of salt. Even those who are parents, spouses, mature students or lawyers cannot say how you personally would fare, and whether you would feel regret for your decision, either way. You posed a specific question (quoted above), but the answer to this depends largely on you. For you is it worth it (financially, emotionally, etc.)? We do not know your financial alternatives or the emotional toll that your decision may take on you, regardless of what you decide. So it's tricky to provide advice beyond personal tales/anecdotes. One person in your position may feel it is/was worth it, another may disagree. One person may feel emotionally fulfilled by law, another may feel emotionally depleted. 

2. I wouldn't weigh the options equally on a scale. I am not at all suggesting that you do not start law school, but I will go so far as to suggest one should not (IMO) start law school if they remain unsure about the decision. I would say a 51% feeling in favour isn't enough. There is a difference between being stressed or worried and being unsure, and I think that if by the time tuition is due you are still struggling to decide, that you may find yourself feeling regret over taking on a large financial and time commitment. You mentioned being "poor and desperate". Law school will only increase financial insecurity for at least the next few years (students can get loans but of course it's not a handout). So I'd be weary to romanticize it as the answer to your problems. 

3. Take your time to decide. Law school isn't going anywhere. I know that you put in a lot of time and energy (and application costs) to get to where you are now. Being accepted into law school is an accomplishment and you should be proud. I also know that you're older than the average law student and may have a "now or never" feeling. That said, delaying by a year or two beats doing something you aren't ready for, ten times out of ten. You don't need to go just because you got accepted. The only thing you need to do is decide whether it feels right and makes sense for you and your family for you to start law school this September. 

4. There may be no right or wrong decision. Finally, I think it's important to hear this: Choosing to forego law school, to spend more time with your baby is the decision of a caring mother. Choosing to attend law school to help afford a life for your baby is also the decision of a caring mother. Being in your parent's basement, a new mom, and strapped for cash is a hard position to be in. You are clearly thinking of your little one, and the sacrifices you make either way will not break you. 

@Lawllapalooza Holy smokes this is  fantastic. Absolutely amazing advice and it has made a difference, thank you so much! You are wise and kind and all the right stuff for this world. 
 

You are right. Every single point has given me perspective. 
 

I feel pressure because friends and family have bought me gifts and taking me out to dinner, and not going or postponing kinda makes me sick 😆 But .. it’s something worth considering. 

Very grateful for your response. 

1 hour ago, CheeseToast said:

Lots of happy women/moms in government. 

In Ottawa? Or remote work? How does one get these positions? 

[Pastrey]

Only you will be able to answer if you should go or not, but if you are questioning it may be worth seeking a deferral.

I am in a similar situation. I am 42 years old, applied as a mature student. This is my second round of applications, I was denied last year. I became homeless last year when my landlord sold the house I had rented for almost a decade. COVID housing market has prevented me from finding another suitable place. I am limited on where I can look as we care for my elderly mother-in-law so she can stay in her home, and have moved in with her until we can find another place. I found out I am pregnant early December (after submitting my application), and am due end of July. I also have a 9 year old.

Age and cost are certainly things I have considered, but I had considered those before applying. The baby throws a new dynamic in I was not expecting (did not plan this little bean), but it hasn’t made me question whether I should go but rather how do I make it all work. I haven’t been admitted yet (I have no undergrad so even as a mature student I am a long shot)…but if I do get admitted I will be going, I will find a way to make it all work. 
 

You can look into on-campus child care. You are living with family - are you saving costs by living there? If so, perhaps using those savings for education costs will help reduce debt. Not having a place of your own isn’t ideal, it downright sucks…but it is a finite period of time and if it helps you achieve your dream, maybe it is worth it? 
 

I have commuter 1.5 hours each way to work for years. I use that time to sort out my thoughts, relax, and organize myself. As a working mom, that is generally the only ‘me’ time I get. It certainly isn’t for everyone though, but it can be manageable. 
 

Good luck with your decision, and congratulations on your acceptance!

[CheeseToast]

1 minute ago, Lulu_spector said:

In Ottawa? Or remote work? How does one get these positions? 

Not in Ottawa specifically, but in general the female provincial and federal government employees always stress how much they enjoy their respective workplaces and the flexibility/schedule it affords them. Hiring is done mostly through OCIs/VCIs (standardized hiring processes that occur in law school) but also plenty of laterals. I wouldn’t bank on getting into government work immediately out of school but it’s certainly an option that’s out there. 

[CleanHands]

15 minutes ago, Lulu_spector said:

I’m just scared, unsure, and hesitant whether my goals will be realistic (coming out financially in debt but making enough for it to be worth it).

3 hours ago, Lulu_spector said:

what would be the point if I don’t try to be the best and network myself for the best opportunities with a $150K debt?

2 hours ago, Lulu_spector said:

What areas of law are the most lucrative and don’t require 10-15 hour days?

3 hours ago, Lulu_spector said:

The areas of law I would like to practice are advocacy for startups and womens healfh, litigation, family law, contractual work for a variety of business and startup needs. I want to speak on behalf of organizations that cannot or don’t want to speak for themselves. This can change of course. 

15 minutes ago, Lulu_spector said:

I want to [...] champion & do advocacy work for issues/causes, people, startups and businesses.

So I gotta say, I love the energy and tone in your posts, they make me smile. haha

I also sympathize with and root for anyone looking to enter the profession with some life experience under their belt who will bring perspectives different from those that K-JDs have (I know some fantastic people that are K-JDs and I'm not knocking them; I'm just advocating for some diversity and pushing against an insular culture in this field). And I admire your ambition.

That said, the issue I see here is this combination:

• You want to make good money (and are entering the profession later in life and taking on a significant debt load, so you need to make decent money to justify this).
• You want to do meaningful work and advocate for causes you believe in.
• You don't want to work crazy hours.

This is challenging in that those goals conflict. The most lucrative areas of law and files don't tend to be the ones that provide the most social value or personal meaning and fulfilment. And in order to be competitive and make a lot of money or to do really important work for worthy causes, a lot of hours and commitment will be demanded from you.

This is a balancing act everyone entering this field has to consider, and inevitably some factors will have to be prioritized and others compromised.

I am not a parent. So I don't feel qualified to give you any advice about how that factors into things or what to do. But I do think you need to consider which of these competing goals motivating you to go to law school are most important to you, and what level of sacrifice to your personal and family life you are willing to make for your professional life.

Regardless of what you choose, I wish you the best.

[unknown24]

21 minutes ago, Lulu_spector said:

@unknown24 wow wow wow … thank you for this!!! It gives me hope. It’s tough to find hope sometimes when our life seems so complex, and your answer has calmed and helped. Thank you 🙏🏽 

I am glad it was somewhat helpful! As a mom with 3.. due in April with her 4th and starting law in September... the prospect of school full time and then long work hours and massive debt is extremely terrifying... but my logic has been (whether right or wrong) I won't know if I can handle it and be successful if I don't ever try! Reach out to local mom's groups too - they exist and a lot of them are incredible. Women I have met in those groups would do anything for fellow mothers - asking for help is a necessity... so don't be afraid to do! Good luck!

[Abc321]

3 hours ago, Lulu_spector said:

Question: Is law school & the lawyer path worth the it? Worth sacrificing raising my own child? Is this path worth the investment of time, money, and health?

Childcare isn't raising your child. Being a working mom doesn't mean you aren't still a mom. 

I'm 35 but had my kids rather young, so I now have an almost 12-year-old and a 7-year-old. I completed my undergrad and worked while my eldest was little and she attended daycare. I then had a remote position and worked from home/parented while my youngest was little (before he was in school). There is no difference in my relationship with my eldest child or with my youngest child, based on if I was "home" with them.

I made all my career decisions to this point based on what was best for my children (and in part my husband's career), and not what was best for my career and happiness. And now I am 35 and attempting to go backwards to go to law school. Obviously this is a personal choice, but for me now looking back.. it wasn't worth it to sacrifice my career goals to be a "better" mom (said with the biggest air quotes, because while there are differences to being a working mom or stay at home mom, I don't think one is necessarily better than the other). I was miserable in my job because I didn't have any goals and there was no challenge to the work. 

I think it's hard to imagine a life outside of the day-to-day when babies are little (probably the lack of sleep makes it feel eternal hahaha). But there comes a point when they are at school and doing their own things and.. then what? Being a mom doesn't mean that you are JUST a mom. You are also an individual outside of that part of your life. 

I think law school is entirely possible, if it's what you want to do. Maybe talk to the law school to find out if they have someone who can advise you about financing etc. I would also find out if it's an option to move closer to the school. I realize you've said that your finances are tight, but if you have funding that would allow you to be closer, then you can reduce some of that stress about being away from baby while commuting a long distance each day (I commuted through undergrad/with baby, so I understand that dilemma). 

 

And side note--if being a mom requires slow energy and a calm demeanour.. my kids are so screwed 😆 I'm a bundle of energy and swear like a sailor. 

[GGrievous]

1 hour ago, Lulu_spector said:

want to work on my laptop at lot and write a lot and champion & do advocacy work for issues/causes, people, startups and businesses. Trying to think if there are other ways to do this. Masters? Phd and then consulting?? Sigh.. I don’t want to chase dreams, I want concrete goals with something that can help me win the end financially and peacefully. 
 

All I know is struggle so I can struggle, but like you said, in such a powerful way, what’s on the end has to be worth it. I have no lawyer family members .. I don’t know what’s on the end. It’s all mystery 😂 

Why is it the worse place to be 😂 what’s your reason being there?

I actually worked for a startup, and there was an employee there doing basically exactly what you describe. They were hardly in the office because they could do that work from anywhere. The only reason I got the position was because I did an undergrad degree that had a great internship placement program. I think otherwise I never would have been able to get a job. I don't have the numbers on success rates and all that, and I do appreciate that with a professional program ike law there is a little more predictability than with tech programs that can go anywhere from fantastic to downright scams. But I only bring it up to say that there are options outside of law. Happy to tell you more about my program and perhaps connect you with the person I know that was doing that work if you're interested. 

As for why I left/why it's the worst place. I had a really comfortable job, but unfortunately I have a friend that was a defence lawyer (they've since switched areas), and I would meet up for drinks with them and swap work stories. They would tell me about how they just got someone out of jail, and I would tell them about how I just fixed a bug. My work felt empty, and theirs felt incredibly valuable. I was compelled to do it because it was all I could think about. That friend really ruined my life (this is hyperbole/joke btw). I feel incredibly privileged that I get to be in law school, but I don't enjoy it. I feel like I have to spend so much time doing things unrelated to my goals, and it's too expensive, and the general attitude of the majority of people there don't align with me. I don't feel like I fit in. I also find it very challenging, some people apparently need to put in little work because it just clicks, I'm not one of these people. I ended up with good grades but I had to work really hard. I just want law school over with. But that again was just my experience. Not everyone will feel this way, and neither necessarily will you. 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Barry

[Deadpool]

https://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/programs/juris-doctor/financial-services/fund-law-school/income-contingent-loan-program/

Each year selected students pursue the JD program fully funded by a combination of bursary and loan funding. These students are required to repay the loan portion of their funding during the 10 years following graduation, only if their income is sufficient. If their income falls below a predetermined threshold in a particular year, the loan repayment for that year may be forgiven in whole or in part.

If you are considering Osgoode, then you would be a good candidate for the Income Contingent Loan Program. If you are considering U of T or Ryerson, they may have similar programs as well.

Law schools have generous financial aid for people in a similar situation as yours. I would contact them and get a early bursary and financial aid assessment. I would also look into whether you can get a professional student line of credit. 

Another question I have is whether your husband needs to continue working the physically demanding, long-hours job he currently has, or if it is possible for him to adjust his hours, find a different job, and stay at home to raise your child. With a professional student line of credit, bursaries and other financial aid, and possibly the income contingent loan program, you might be able to make things work financially. You can also find some cheap rent in the suburbs of Toronto or close to the subway. If your husband and your baby can move with you to be near the school, then you would not miss out on seeing them as much and can be more involved in your baby's life. That is, unless someone needs to be at home to also care for your elderly parents. If classes are in-person, I don't recommend long commutes in first year when you have early morning classes and would want to also participate in extracurriculars. 

It seems like law school has been a dream of yours for a long time. While it may be practical to pursue alternative paths, you have only one live to life and don't want to have any regrets in the future. I am someone that went to law school as a low-income individual and pursued a public sector career. I did not have a partner or dependants. Still, you do not need to necessarily chase the big dollars and big firm lifestyle to find meaning and fulfillment in this profession. My family, which includes my parents and siblings, are doing better because of the career path I chose — both in terms of the financial payoff and also the pride they feel when they know someone in the family has achieved this milestone. Really sit down with your family and have this discussion with them to see how they feel about the choices you have before you. 

Contact the school/s and have an in-depth conversation with them about your personal and financial situation and ask them about your options. 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Deadpool

[Lulu_spector]

6 hours ago, Barry said:

I actually worked for a startup, and there was an employee there doing basically exactly what you describe. They were hardly in the office because they could do that work from anywhere. The only reason I got the position was because I did an undergrad degree that had a great internship placement program. I think otherwise I never would have been able to get a job. I don't have the numbers on success rates and all that, and I do appreciate that with a professional program ike law there is a little more predictability than with tech programs that can go anywhere from fantastic to downright scams. But I only bring it up to say that there are options outside of law. Happy to tell you more about my program and perhaps connect you with the person I know that was doing that work if you're interested. 

As for why I left/why it's the worst place. I had a really comfortable job, but unfortunately I have a friend that was a defence lawyer (they've since switched areas), and I would meet up for drinks with them and swap work stories. They would tell me about how they just got someone out of jail, and I would tell them about how I just fixed a bug. My work felt empty, and theirs felt incredibly valuable. I was compelled to do it because it was all I could think about. That friend really ruined my life (this is hyperbole/joke btw). I feel incredibly privileged that I get to be in law school, but I don't enjoy it. I feel like I have to spend so much time doing things unrelated to my goals, and it's too expensive, and the general attitude of the majority of people there don't align with me. I don't feel like I fit in. I also find it very challenging, some people apparently need to put in little work because it just clicks, I'm not one of these people. I ended up with good grades but I had to work really hard. I just want law school over with. But that again was just my experience. Not everyone will feel this way, and neither necessarily will you. 

@Barry I read your reply with genuine zeal! I’m such a nerd 😆 Thank you for all that! You sound like such a kind and intelligent person, how do you not fit in? Is it because most think they’re incredibly gifted or something?? Lacking humility? Either way, you belong at the table. Barry, I would be sincerely thankful to connect with the person you said had a job similar to what I described! How can we make this happen? Thank you so much 😊 

2 hours ago, Deadpool said:

https://www.osgoode.yorku.ca/programs/juris-doctor/financial-services/fund-law-school/income-contingent-loan-program/

Each year selected students pursue the JD program fully funded by a combination of bursary and loan funding. These students are required to repay the loan portion of their funding during the 10 years following graduation, only if their income is sufficient. If their income falls below a predetermined threshold in a particular year, the loan repayment for that year may be forgiven in whole or in part.

If you are considering Osgoode, then you would be a good candidate for the Income Contingent Loan Program. If you are considering U of T or Ryerson, they may have similar programs as well.

Law schools have generous financial aid for people in a similar situation as yours. I would contact them and get a early bursary and financial aid assessment. I would also look into whether you can get a professional student line of credit. 

Another question I have is whether your husband needs to continue working the physically demanding, long-hours job he currently has, or if it is possible for him to adjust his hours, find a different job, and stay at home to raise your child. With a professional student line of credit, bursaries and other financial aid, and possibly the income contingent loan program, you might be able to make things work financially. You can also find some cheap rent in the suburbs of Toronto or close to the subway. If your husband and your baby can move with you to be near the school, then you would not miss out on seeing them as much and can be more involved in your baby's life. That is, unless someone needs to be at home to also care for your elderly parents. If classes are in-person, I don't recommend long commutes in first year when you have early morning classes and would want to also participate in extracurriculars. 

It seems like law school has been a dream of yours for a long time. While it may be practical to pursue alternative paths, you have only one live to life and don't want to have any regrets in the future. I am someone that went to law school as a low-income individual and pursued a public sector career. I did not have a partner or dependants. Still, you do not need to necessarily chase the big dollars and big firm lifestyle to find meaning and fulfillment in this profession. My family, which includes my parents and siblings, are doing better because of the career path I chose — both in terms of the financial payoff and also the pride they feel when they know someone in the family has achieved this milestone. Really sit down with your family and have this discussion with them to see how they feel about the choices you have before you. 

Contact the school/s and have an in-depth conversation with them about your personal and financial situation and ask them about your options. 

Great points here and ideas that make sense. Thank you so much for taking the time to write this! 

[Lulu_spector]

7 hours ago, CleanHands said:

So I gotta say, I love the energy and tone in your posts, they make me smile. haha

I also sympathize with and root for anyone looking to enter the profession with some life experience under their belt who will bring perspectives different from those that K-JDs have (I know some fantastic people that are K-JDs and I'm not knocking them; I'm just advocating for some diversity and pushing against an insular culture in this field). And I admire your ambition.

That said, the issue I see here is this combination:

• You want to make good money (and are entering the profession later in life and taking on a significant debt load, so you need to make decent money to justify this).
• You want to do meaningful work and advocate for causes you believe in.
• You don't want to work crazy hours.

This is challenging in that those goals conflict. The most lucrative areas of law and files don't tend to be the ones that provide the most social value or personal meaning and fulfilment. And in order to be competitive and make a lot of money or to do really important work for worthy causes, a lot of hours and commitment will be demanded from you.

This is a balancing act everyone entering this field has to consider, and inevitably some factors will have to be prioritized and others compromised.

I am not a parent. So I don't feel qualified to give you any advice about how that factors into things or what to do. But I do think you need to consider which of these competing goals motivating you to go to law school are most important to you, and what level of sacrifice to your personal and family life you are willing to make for your professional life.

Regardless of what you choose, I wish you the best.

@CleanHands this is so helpful, so very very helpful. I wish I could high five you 😆 I appreciate how you have organized your reply in such a way that has helped me gain insight. For instance, I appreciate how you have taken 3 elements from my long responses and positioned them in such a way that helps me gain clarity for this path. Thank you! Clearly you did well on Reading comp on the LSAT? 😂 bravo 👏🏽 

Overall, you have created some value-driven questions and thoughts here in a way I didn’t consider. Thank you for this. And thank you for your time 😊 I appreciate your response so much! 

[Patient0L]

Question: Would a man with kids ask himself this same question?

 

Why let gender hold you back?

 

Also, there are grants, awards, and bursaries for parents and low income folks specifically. Most universities have really good daycares. AND, you would be setting a great example for your child. 

 

Go for it!

[Lulu_spector]

On 3/5/2022 at 11:22 AM, Patient0L said:

Question: Would a man with kids ask himself this same question?

 

Why let gender hold you back?

 

Also, there are grants, awards, and bursaries for parents and low income folks specifically. Most universities have really good daycares. AND, you would be setting a great example for your child. 

 

Go for it!

With all due respect, if you’re in law school, or wanting to go, or already a lawyer, then you ought to have some basic knowledge about the legal and political realities of contemporary society which includes the limits and barriers faced by women and BIPOC. 
 

I am not holding myself back. I’m worried because law school isn’t designed for people who have dependents, and thus it causes a barrier to be a present and hardworking mother and a present and hardworking law student. 
 

Thank you for reminding me of the scholarships! And thank you for encouraging me 🙂 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Lulu_spector

[Patient0L]

Just now, Lulu_spector said:

With all due respect, if you’re in law school, or wanting to go, or already a lawyer, then you ought to have some basic knowledge about the legal and political realities of contemporary society which includes the limits and barriers faced by women and BIPOC. 
 

I am not holding myself back. I’m worried because law schools isn’t designed for people who have dependents, and thus it causes a barrier to be a present and hardworking mother and a present and hardworking law student. 
 

Thank you for reminding me of the scholarships! And thank you for encouraging me 🙂 

I don’t like to give to much info about myself in these forums… but I have a small child and am heading off to law school this year.

I think that going to law school before your baby is sleeping through the night would be hell. But in the sweet spot, when you’re eligible for a daycare subsidy and before Kindergarten, when your kid gets off school at 3 and subsidy’s drop considerably, would be a great time to do it.

[TheDevilIKnow]

On 3/5/2022 at 8:22 AM, Patient0L said:

Question: Would a man with kids ask himself this same question?

I am a man with a kid, who left being a full-time father to go back to law school at the same age as OP. I certainly did ask myself this question, and unfortunately I answered it wrongly. I definitely regret going to law school. It has added massive stress to my family life, has impacted my son's development and my relationship with him and his mom. It's also unlikely to be worth it financially for a very long time in my case.

That's not intended to scare off the OP. Just a reminder that - as several above posters have stated more eloquently than me - this is a very individual decision. You may well decide it's worth it for you, and you may well be right (and I hope so). But the costs are very real. In particular, the drastic reduction in time with your child, at such a young age, is going to be very viscerally difficult for you. I say that as a father, with full knowledge that it is likely to be even more difficult as a mother (not sure if that's an unpopular take these days, but it's what I believe.)

If I were you, I would be hanging on to this dream but looking for a way to defer/delay it until your child is older. But, of course, I am not you, and my family is not your family. 😉

Best of luck in making your decision!

[Lulu_spector]

On 3/9/2022 at 11:33 PM, TheDevilIKnow said:

I am a man with a kid, who left being a full-time father to go back to law school at the same age as OP. I certainly did ask myself this question, and unfortunately I answered it wrongly. I definitely regret going to law school. It has added massive stress to my family life, has impacted my son's development and my relationship with him and his mom. It's also unlikely to be worth it financially for a very long time in my case.

That's not intended to scare off the OP. Just a reminder that - as several above posters have stated more eloquently than me - this is a very individual decision. You may well decide it's worth it for you, and you may well be right (and I hope so). But the costs are very real. In particular, the drastic reduction in time with your child, at such a young age, is going to be very viscerally difficult for you. I say that as a father, with full knowledge that it is likely to be even more difficult as a mother (not sure if that's an unpopular take these days, but it's what I believe.)

If I were you, I would be hanging on to this dream but looking for a way to defer/delay it until your child is older. But, of course, I am not you, and my family is not your family. 😉

Best of luck in making your decision!

I really appreciate this honest and candid answer. The issue now is — I have talent that has gone many years without being put to use. This has caused me significant financial instability and has put the pressure on my husband who hasn’t been been able to buy us a home etc with the market. To buy a house now you either have to be a millionaire or already a homeowner who bought many years ago. We are neither. So… now I wonder what will I do to help us get ahead and raise my child. Damn I am going through an existential dilemma here. Thank you for sharing your story with me, it means more than you know 🙏🏽