Are my chances for law school gone?

[kwakwa]

I just finished 4th year of undergrad at uOttawa (joint honours degree in Econ and Poli Sci). I still haven't graduated because of a few outstanding credits but I'm set to graduate after fall.

Assuming my remaining three courses don't change my GPA significantly, I'm looking at:

CGPA: 3.00 on the dot

L2 (same as B2 in my case): 3.39

My EC's aren't spectacular, I did work for a member of parliament and currently doing a summer research job for a non-profit but very little club/EC experience. I worked through most of undergrad.

Don't really have great reasons for my low GPA either, other than having to work (which to be fair a lot of students do). I was an awful student in first year, more concerned with partying than actually studying, which isn't a great excuse. Took me a year in academic probation to straighten things out and by fourth year I was a solid A- average student, but my overall GPA did suffer as a result of my earlier years.

I've taken practice LSATs and my highest score was 163 which I understand is pretty good but not exceptional. I'm sure with months of practice I could do better, but practice tests aren't real ones so it doesn't really mean much.

References are decent, I have a couple profs who would put in a good word for me, as well as employers.

So with all that said...do I have a realistic shot? I ask because it's crunch time now, I have other career options as well with my degree and experience but my ultimate goal has always been law. I've shown improvement as a student, so while I'm not exactly a genius, I'm clearly not the slacker I used to be either. But now I have to decide whether it's worth it for me to dedicate the time and effort to get a good LSAT score, apply for all these schools, and hope something clicks - there's also the option of requesting an academic reset on my worst semester, which would require another semester of studies but could help boost my GPA significantly. Do I have a realistic shot at any Canadian law school? Which schools do y'all think would be realistic options - I have no illusions about UofT/UBC/Osgoode etc, but I'm thinking Windsor/Manitoba/TRU/Calgary etc might be more in my wheelhouse. What do you all think?

[LMP]

If you can solidify that LSAT in and around a mid 160, I think you have a  good shot. 

Write a strong PS and don't be afraid to use your work during undergrad to explain some of your academic problems. Don't be afraid to apply access!

Apply broadly and I think you have a fair shot at an offer somewhere. 

 

[Thrive92]

I would recommend you to take more than the three requirement courses during the fall, and try to achieve the best grades possible in order to increase your GPA/L2/B2. Improving your GPA is relatively easy, but is definitely time consuming.

If you are dead set on going into law, then I would recommend you defer your graduation until the end of the spring semester of 2022 and try to cram in as many GPA - booster courses as possible within the upcoming two semesters. This would mean setting aside your application for law school until the cycle after the upcoming one. I do not know much about the law schools in Ontario, but there may be some that do not consider courses taken after graduation, while others do. For example, TRU does not consider courses taken after graduation in calculating their GPA (although they look at it as a plus), while U of C does as long as they are not 1xx - level courses.  Best to look into it and ask them about the specifics if you cannot find the info on their websites.

 

Like LMP said, mid - 160 on your LSAT will definitely help, and hopefully you achieve higher than that in order to better your chances.

 

Good luck.

 

[Goblin King]

I don't think you have a very strong access claim. Unless you and/or your family had serious financial hardship, I don't think that working during uni is grounds for an access claim. uOttawa defines their access category as follows: "[t]he University of Ottawa has created an Access admission category to facilitate the entry into law school of students who have experienced barriers of a systemic, ongoing nature, or who are from groups which have experienced identifiable social or economic barriers to education." I'd still give it a shot, as most schools will consider access category applicants as regular applicants as well. 

However, I find your EC's to be quite good. Also, a 163 on a (hopefully timed) practice test without studying is impressive. 

To state the obvious, your best shot is to be what's called a "splitter," someone with a low cGPA and a high LSAT, a category for which @Ryn's online admission predictor is unreliable. Without a proper LSAT no one can really accurately tell you if you're screwed or not. All that's left for you to do is to do your best on the test. Three words of caution: first, the LSAT is hard and subject to the law of diminishing marginal returns. You do have a ceiling beyond which studying can't get you much further. Second, it's possible that the economic damage of COVID will motivate more people to go to law school for years to come, making things comparably competitive to this year. Finally, you might try your best, work your ass off studying for the LSAT, and still fail to get into law school -- your cGPA and L2 are not generally competitive. You should know this going in and adjust expectations accordingly. 

I really do wish you the best of luck. I wasn't amazing at the LSAT, but if you want some strategies that worked for me, feel free to message me. 

Edit: taking some extra courses may help you out as well. 

Edited June 21, 2021 by Goblin King

[historicaladvantage]

45 minutes ago, kwakwa said:

I just finished 4th year of undergrad at uOttawa (joint honours degree in Econ and Poli Sci). I still haven't graduated because of a few outstanding credits but I'm set to graduate after fall.

Assuming my remaining three courses don't change my GPA significantly, I'm looking at:

CGPA: 3.00 on the dot

L2 (same as B2 in my case): 3.39

My EC's aren't spectacular, I did work for a member of parliament and currently doing a summer research job for a non-profit but very little club/EC experience. I worked through most of undergrad.

Don't really have great reasons for my low GPA either, other than having to work (which to be fair a lot of students do). I was an awful student in first year, more concerned with partying than actually studying, which isn't a great excuse. Took me a year in academic probation to straighten things out and by fourth year I was a solid A- average student, but my overall GPA did suffer as a result of my earlier years.

I've taken practice LSATs and my highest score was 163 which I understand is pretty good but not exceptional. I'm sure with months of practice I could do better, but practice tests aren't real ones so it doesn't really mean much.

References are decent, I have a couple profs who would put in a good word for me, as well as employers.

So with all that said...do I have a realistic shot? I ask because it's crunch time now, I have other career options as well with my degree and experience but my ultimate goal has always been law. I've shown improvement as a student, so while I'm not exactly a genius, I'm clearly not the slacker I used to be either. But now I have to decide whether it's worth it for me to dedicate the time and effort to get a good LSAT score, apply for all these schools, and hope something clicks - there's also the option of requesting an academic reset on my worst semester, which would require another semester of studies but could help boost my GPA significantly. Do I have a realistic shot at any Canadian law school? Which schools do y'all think would be realistic options - I have no illusions about UofT/UBC/Osgoode etc, but I'm thinking Windsor/Manitoba/TRU/Calgary etc might be more in my wheelhouse. What do you all think?

Without an LSAT score, it's tough to say for sure--but you're not a strong candidate at most schools without at least an LSAT in the high 160s, in my opinion.

You would stand potentially a half-decent shot at the lower tier schools, like Lakehead, Windsor, or Ottawa if you received a 163+ LSAT, but for schools like Western, Queens, Osgoode, UBC, McGill and Dalhousie, you'd have to get closer to around a 168-170 on your LSAT (i.e., you'd need to be a "super splitter").

U of T is going to be very, very hard. You may get into U of T with an inordinately high LSAT in the mid 170s but it's a long shot and a score like that is beyond rare. 

Edited June 21, 2021 by historicaladvantage

[QueensDenning]

Keep in mind that people are getting denied from every school in Ontario with stats like 3.5/3.6B2/164s (I know many around this range who were denied this cycle). 

[Meryl]

Yes, the cycle is more competitive right now, but that doesn't mean that students with lower GPAs aren't getting in (ahem, I am one of them). I think that when you have a lower GPA, everything else in your application becomes much more important.

Make sure to really highlight the fact that you worked throughout university (law schools like to see that you kept busy, doing less extracurriculars isn't as big of a deal if you were spending that time working), including the research/parliamentary stuff. Try and tie it back into why you want to go to law school in your personal statement. People tend to underestimate how important the personal statement is, especially more recently since schools like UofT and UBC are changing their admissions standards to put more emphasis on the personal statement (where before it seemed to only matter to holistic schools). Don't mention why your GPA is lower in the application at all, just focus on how you worked in your last year to bring it up and how you believe those more recent marks are reflective of how you would do in law school. 

A 163 on the LSAT is already decent, and if you can bring that up to even a 164/165 then I think you would have a solid chance at a lot of schools like Ryerson/TRU/Windsor/Alberta/Lakehead/UNB/etc. If you qualify as low-income then the application to UofT is free and I'd recommend applying. I would also recommend applying to Osgoode, they actually describe themselves as a holistic school. 

If you followed @Thrive92's advice and took another year, and maintained a 3.7+ GPA in that year, then you would also stand a decent chance at schools like UofT/Western/Queens/etc since they all put an emphasis on your last 2/3 years. But that's a big decision to make, and it may not be necessary if you just want to go to any law school. 

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by JaneAusten

[CheeseToast]

32 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

Keep in mind that people are getting denied from every school in Ontario with stats like 3.5/3.6B2/164s (I know many around this range who were denied this cycle). 

I find that hard to believe tbh, I was accepted to Queens, Western, and Ottawa with an ~3.65 OLSAS L2/B2 and a 162. 

[CheeseToast]

6 minutes ago, JaneAusten said:

A 163 on the LSAT is already decent, and if you can bring that up to even a 164/165 then I think you would have a solid chance at a lot of schools like Ryerson/TRU/Windsor/Alberta/Lakehead/UNB/etc. If you qualify as low-income then the application to UofT is free and I'd recommend applying. I would also recommend applying to Osgoode, they actually describe themselves as a holistic school. 

If you followed @Thrive92's advice and took another year, and maintained a 3.7+ GPA in that year, then you would also stand a decent chance at schools like UofT/Western/Queens/etc since they all put an emphasis on your last 2/3 years. But that's a big decision to make, and it may not be necessary if you just want to go to any law school. 

I find it hilarious that you put Alberta in the same tier as Windsor and Ryerson but Queen’s and Western get to be with UofT.

[CleanHands]

2 minutes ago, CheeseToast said:

I find it hilarious that you put Alberta in the same tier as Windsor and Ryerson but Queen’s and Western get to be with UofT.

Nice to see that the Ontario chauvinism from the old forum has carried over.

[QueensDenning]

6 minutes ago, CheeseToast said:

I find that hard to believe tbh, I was accepted to Queens, Western, and Ottawa with an ~3.65 OLSAS L2/B2 and a 162. 

it's nice that you find it hard to believe. I think those applicants (whom I know personally) also found it hard to believe. 

 

Edit: your tag says "law student." Have you just finished 1L? Because admissions got a lot more competitive this year. My stats also were not steller and I was accepted to every school but UofT last year. 

Edited June 21, 2021 by QueensDenning

[QueensDenning]

8 minutes ago, CheeseToast said:

I find it hilarious that you put Alberta in the same tier as Windsor and Ryerson but Queen’s and Western get to be with UofT.

I just looked at Alberta's admissions policies and was genuinely shocked. Us Ontarian's know nothing about law schools outside of Ontario lmao 

[CheeseToast]

2 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

it's nice that you find it hard to believe. I think those applicants (whom I know personally) also found it hard to believe. 

 

Edit: your tag says "law student." Have you just finished 1L? Because admissions got a lot more competitive this year. My stats also were not steller and I was accepted to every school but UofT last year. 

In my experience many applicants and university students in general tend to lie about their GPAs and LSATs. Regarding your second point, no, I am an incoming student (at the time  I registered there was no option for accepted applicant or whatever it is now). I’m not convinced applications got a lot more competitive. 

[Skier41]

4 minutes ago, CheeseToast said:

I’m not convinced applications got a lot more competitive. 

This - I would say admissions got slightly more competitive but I disagree with those saying this cycle is severely more competitive or unprecedented. In terms of application numbers, sure, but not in terms of drastic changes in average stats/LSATs. Sure, some normally competitive stats were rejected this year, but that could also be due to LORs/PS or issues with other application components. As someone who was either at/below average stats, I did not see any drastic changes in acceptances/waitlists/rejections than what was expected, which was the same for most of the people I know. 

[Meryl]

1 hour ago, CheeseToast said:

I find it hilarious that you put Alberta in the same tier as Windsor and Ryerson but Queen’s and Western get to be with UofT.

I kind of just separated it between traditionally holistic and non holistic schools. That’s why Osgoode wasn’t put with UofT and the others. Is Alberta not a holistic school? 

[LMP]

1 minute ago, JaneAusten said:

I kind of just separated it between traditionally holistic and non holistic schools. That’s why Osgoode wasn’t put with UofT and the others. Is Alberta not a holistic school? 

It's not at all. All stats all the time. 

[Meryl]

1 minute ago, LMP said:

It's not at all. All stats all the time. 

Ah, my mistake then. I thought I’d heard that it was. 

[LMP]

Just now, JaneAusten said:

Ah, my mistake then. I thought I’d heard that it was. 

You may have been thinking of Calgary! I always mix em up as well. We can blame in on our Ontario nature.

[Toad]

Just now, JaneAusten said:

I kind of just separated it between traditionally holistic and non holistic schools. That’s why Osgoode wasn’t put with UofT and the others. Is Alberta not a holistic school? 

 

For the majority of applicants they are a pure index school based purely on L2/LSAT scores. They consider holistic factors for applicants in the Indigenous category and for the last 10-20% of spots. I'm not sure if anything has changed lately. I stopped paying much attention after around 2018.

 

[Ben]

1 hour ago, CleanHands said:

Nice to see that the Ontario chauvinism from the old forum has carried over.

Along with the western provinces' chip on the shoulder, of course 

[Whist]

1 hour ago, LMP said:

You may have been thinking of Calgary! I always mix em up as well. We can blame in on our Ontario nature.

It happens for us western Canadians too. I regularly mix up Ryerson and UofT because they're both in Toronto. For some reason it doesn't go over well.

[Totally_Bucked]

On 6/21/2021 at 7:09 PM, CheeseToast said:

I’m not convinced applications got a lot more competitive. 

If you aren't convinced either you haven't looked at the numbers or you just aren't a stats person (no shame in it, I'm not either). The number of applicants for a lot of schools is up by ~20% over last year coupled with an upward trend for LSAT scores, particularly during the LSAT Flex period. Both on their own would make admissions noticeably more competitive, together they're pretty deadly for some people. I can provide links if you really want, or a link to the Power Score podcast where they do a deep dive on it, but for frame of reference, Osgoode Hall received 2,735 applications last cycle and had 3,336 this cycle. Increased competitiveness in times of financial turmoil also has a historical precedent. Applications increased and got more competitive in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis too. Not to trigger anyone's LR PTSD, but it feels like a reasonable assumption that things got more competitive this year based on the available info.

I say this as a super splitter (3.04 cGPA, 173 LSAT) and a mature student (ten years of CAF experience) sitting on precisely zero acceptances despite sending applications to almost every school in Ontario. I was banking that a good LSAT and interesting life experience would make up for my aggressively mediocre GPA, but no dice. Admittedly, I'm a single data point, but still, it certainly seems like it's a rough year out there. 

[lawess]

i think you have a shot. just don't psych yourself out and -- unpopular opinion -- don't listen to the negative people on this forum who will try try to convince you you can't do it and who more likely than not have no idea what they're talking about.  i'm a 3.2 cgpa, 163 lsat and got into windsor and waitlisted at york. i had to take the feb lsat and was told my the universities themselves it would affect my chances, so if you take the LSAT early enough in the cycle you have a good shot at mid-tier schools.

[bluebean]

If you're willing and can afford it, I echo everyone who said to do an extra year. If you can manage to boost your L2 to 3.7+, it'll help you immensely and open quite a few doors since you already have a competitive projected LSAT. There's nothing wrong with shooting your shot now, but having a sub-3.5 L2 would feel like an unsafe bet to me personally.

The way I see it, you can apply now and potentially get into some more holistic schools - (risky because it depends on how good your PS is, which is subjective) 

or take an extra year and be in a more comfy stats range, giving you a shot at the stats-heavy schools (almost definite admit if you're in their index), as well as L2/B2 schools. You'll ultimately have a larger pool of schools to apply to/choose from, being a splitter. 

This is what I decided to do and I got into my top choice! 

[Avatar Aang]

4 hours ago, Totally_Bucked said:

If you aren't convinced either you haven't looked at the numbers or you just aren't a stats person (no shame in it, I'm not either). The number of applicants for a lot of schools is up by ~20% over last year coupled with an upward trend for LSAT scores, particularly during the LSAT Flex period. Both on their own would make admissions noticeably more competitive, together they're pretty deadly for some people. I can provide links if you really want, or a link to the Power Score podcast where they do a deep dive on it, but for frame of reference, Osgoode Hall received 2,735 applications last cycle and had 3,336 this cycle. Increased competitiveness in times of financial turmoil also has a historical precedent. Applications increased and got more competitive in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis too. Not to trigger anyone's LR PTSD, but it feels like a reasonable assumption that things got more competitive this year based on the available info.

I say this as a super splitter (3.04 cGPA, 173 LSAT) and a mature student (ten years of CAF experience) sitting on precisely zero acceptances despite sending applications to almost every school in Ontario. I was banking that a good LSAT and interesting life experience would make up for my aggressively mediocre GPA, but no dice. Admittedly, I'm a single data point, but still, it certainly seems like it's a rough year out there. 

Don't lose hope. You have a stellar LSAT and very interesting experience indeed. I know people with this kind of experience in the profession and I am glad they came to law school and it's not all K-JDs talking about seven sisters vs. non seven sisters. If you don't get in anywhere this cycle, I would apply more broadly for the next one.