How many firms to apply to for 2L recruit

[Lawstudent9898]

Hi, 

How many firms would you recommend applying to for the 2L recruit. I compiled a list of around 20 firms (the larger full service Bay Street ones) but I’ve heard of people applying to 30-40 firms. 
 

Should I be applying to more firms? I have a high B+ average from Western and good work experience. 
 

I listed the firms I was thinking of applying to below and if you have any recommendations please let me know! I am not looking to work in specialty areas like tax or IP and would prefer full service firms. 
 

Firms I am applying to: 

Aird & Berlis 
Baker McKenzie
Bennett Jones
Blakes 
BLG 
Cassels 
Davies 
Dickinson 
DLA 
Fasken 
Goodmans 
Gowling 
McCarthy 
McMillan
Miller 
Norton Rose 
Osler 
Stikemans 
Torys 
Willdeboer

Also considering Skadden and Paul Weiss but probably not because I haven’t coffee chatted anyone at these firms and I think I would get a more narrow experience here. 

Thank you! 

Edited July 18, 2022 by Lawstudent9898

[LMP]

I'm in the same spot as you so I can't give definitive advice, but, I've heard several of the more established lawyers on this forum say not to fret over coffee chats or namedropping. So if those were the only things holding you back I see no reason not to apply more broadly. I certianly intend to cast a wide net.

[ramoj]

Deleted

Edited July 18, 2022 by jomar

[CleanHands]

7 minutes ago, jomar said:

Why then have you not considered KPMG or Deloitte or PWC? All of whom have some legal groups in the dedicated area of tax. Good luck!

???

8 hours ago, Lawstudent9898 said:

I am not looking to work in specialty areas like tax or IP and would prefer full service firms. 

 

[ramoj]

3 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

???

 

Lmao sorry I did not see "not" 

[QueensDenning]

8 hours ago, Lawstudent9898 said:

Also considering Skadden and Paul Weiss but probably not because I haven’t coffee chatted anyone at these firms and I think I would get a more narrow experience here. 

LOL 

[Jaggers]

What does coffee chatting mean in terms of the firm recruit? Isn't an OCI basically the chat?

[Rashabon]

If you're desperate for a job, apply to more firms. If you're not as desperate and an actually decent candidate, you can narrow your choices. Your question "Should I..." is not a thoughtful question. I think it's obvious what applying to more firms versus less means so the rest is up to you to decide. You don't get rewarded just for applying to more or less.

As an aside, coffee chatted as a verb is so weird.

[LMP]

3 minutes ago, Jaggers said:

What does coffee chatting mean in terms of the firm recruit? Isn't an OCI basically the chat?

It means having conversations with members of the firm before the recurit so you can put in your cover letter "unknown associate 133432 has told me how lovely it is at your firm". 

I don't put much stock in it but I know a lot of people who swear by it. Or maybe I'm trivilizing it and there's something I'm not getting about the whole process. 

[Jaggers]

But it is true that Skadden and Paul Weiss will give you a materially different experience and set of qualifications than the other firms on that list, so you should really know in advance if that's what you're looking for, whether or not you have spoken to someone who works there.

[ramoj]

37 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

LOL 

 

9 hours ago, Lawstudent9898 said:

Also considering Skadden and Paul Weiss but probably not because I haven’t coffee chatted anyone at these firms and I think I would get a more narrow experience here. 

 

@QueensDenning OP is probably in Ivey HBA/JD dual lol 

[QueensDenning]

7 minutes ago, jomar said:

 

@QueensDenning OP is probably in Ivey HBA/JD dual lol 

"I'm going to apply to all of the full service corporate firms. But not the two most prestigious ones that will pay me 4X any of the others. Not because I wouldn't have a chance of getting an interview there, but because I don't want to narrow myself." lol. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

From the context, I assume OP was talking about the Toronto offices of Skadden and Paul Weiss, neither of which are full service firms and both of which will narrow OP's career prospects outside of pure corporate work. 

Maybe you two should rub a couple of brain cells together before mocking OP needlessly? 

[QueensDenning]

9 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

From the context, I assume OP was talking about the Toronto offices of Skadden and Paul Weiss, neither of which are full service firms and both of which will narrow OP's career prospects outside of pure corporate work. 

Maybe you two should rub a couple of brain cells together before mocking OP needlessly? 

fair enough. Just seems a little ridiculous to me to say that as a 2L you wouldn't want to work at Skadden or Paul Weiss because it's too narrow. Also none of the 2L summer students hired at either of those firms are restricted to the Toronto office. So it's not pure corporate transactional work at all. I don't think the mocking is completely unwarranted. Most law students, especially those interested in corporate/big law, would absolutely kill for those jobs. 

Another edit: you think doing a 2L summer at PW or Skadden will narrow OP's career prospects anywhere? Really? 

Edited July 18, 2022 by QueensDenning

[C_Terror]

There's no cost to you in applying more other than the time commitment, so I would just apply to a bit more firms (maybe slightly smaller than your 20, but still full service). The "problem" you would have would just be to narrowing down and choosing your OCIs if you are indeed a competitive candidate.

PS if you can handle it, do the full 20 OCIs at Western. It's doable, increases your chance of in-firms, and you actually get a sense of the firm culture from the interviews. (but be prepared for behavioural interviews for a few of the firms, PM me for names) 

[BlockedQuebecois]

8 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

Another edit: you think doing a 2L summer at PW or Skadden will narrow OP's career prospects anywhere? Really?

Yes. If you want to practice corporate litigation in Toronto, going to Skadden Toronto is not a smart career move. That's partly why a large number of students don't apply to those firms' Toronto offices despite applying to the major Bay St firms. 

If you approach your career as a competition to work at the most "prestigious" firm you can convince to hire you, regardless of whether their work lines up with your interests, you're not going to have a good time. Doubly so when you act like everyone that doesn't approach their career the same way is doing so because they "wouldn't have a chance" of interviewing at the "prestigious" firms (which is a weird criticism, coming from you). 

[ramoj]

35 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

From the context, I assume OP was talking about the Toronto offices of Skadden and Paul Weiss, neither of which are full service firms and both of which will narrow OP's career prospects outside of pure corporate work. 

Maybe you two should rub a couple of brain cells together before mocking OP needlessly? 

Dear BQ,

Not mocking OP. Moreso mocking how Ivey instills coffee chats in every single student even when sometimes, they are not necessary. 

As evidenced by my initial post (now deleted), I made some recommendations for OP to consider, only to realize they were not helpful given their preference not to practice tax law. 

Edited July 18, 2022 by jomar

[QueensDenning]

11 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Yes. If you want to practice corporate litigation in Toronto, going to Skadden Toronto is not a smart career move. That's partly why a large number of students don't apply to those firms' Toronto offices despite applying to the major Bay St firms. 

If you approach your career as a competition to work at the most "prestigious" firm you can convince to hire you, regardless of whether their work lines up with your interests, you're not going to have a good time. Doubly so when you act like everyone that doesn't approach their career the same way is doing so because they "wouldn't have a chance" of interviewing at the "prestigious" firms (which is a weird criticism, coming from you). 

I also wan't trying to mock OP. Was just trying to give good advice (apply to everywhere you might want to work). 

Also BQ, If you get a job at Skadden you can practice corporate litigation in New York during your 2L summer (I know this as I did "coffee chat" their recruiter). I'd find it hard to believe that NY corporate litigation experience would limit your Toronto prospects, but I guess you're the expert. 

[Jaggers]

You are not going to be hard up for good career options if you start working as a student at Skadden in Toronto, but it does put you on a different likely career path than someone working at a Canadian full service firm. Nothing set in stone, of course, but they do generate different types of work, and different exit options in the aggregate.

Depending on your goals, you may be fine getting on either path, but you probably want to put some thought into it first?

[BlockedQuebecois]

10 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

I also wan't trying to mock OP.

I suppose I’ll leave it for others to decide whether this: 

56 minutes ago, QueensDenning said:

"I'm going to apply to all of the full service corporate firms. But not the two most prestigious ones that will pay me 4X any of the others. Not because I wouldn't have a chance of getting an interview there, but because I don't want to narrow myself." lol. 

can be taken as anything except mocking OP. 

[QueensDenning]

27 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I suppose I’ll leave it for others to decide whether this: 

can be taken as anything except mocking OP. 

Mea culpa. Who cares, was more intending to mock the idea of not applying to a firm based on what i believe a misconception about narrowing oneself - since as I’ve repeated, as far as I understand both of those firms allow you to do basically whatever work you’d like to (based on their NY or TO office - up to the choice of the student). 

[mistertubby]

whats a paul weiss? i have heard of paul COMMA weiss though

[Geworfenheit]

11 hours ago, Lawstudent9898 said:

Firms I am applying to: 

Aird & Berlis 
Baker McKenzie
Bennett Jones
Blakes 
BLG 
Cassels 
Davies 
Dickinson 
DLA 
Fasken 
Goodmans 
Gowling 
McCarthy 
McMillan
Miller 
Norton Rose 
Osler 
Stikemans 
Torys 
Willdeboer

 

2 hours ago, Rashabon said:

If you're desperate for a job, apply to more firms. If you're not as desperate and an actually decent candidate, you can narrow your choices. Your question "Should I..." is not a thoughtful question. I think it's obvious what applying to more firms versus less means so the rest is up to you to decide. You don't get rewarded just for applying to more or less.

I applied to the exact 20 firms plus Fogler Rubinoff and Torkin Manes. I received OCI invitaitons from more than half of these firms and finally got a job. I did so because I was determined that I want to be a typical corporate/securities lawyer and other firms off my list won't be able to feed me with the types of work. That being said, I was indeed a decent candidate when I applied (b/c that was before my grades dropped as a result of having a job). 

1 hour ago, QueensDenning said:

Another edit: you think doing a 2L summer at PW or Skadden will narrow OP's career prospects anywhere? Really? 

I interviewed with Baker McKenzie and asked about the types of work they do (but limited to the transactional side). Based on our conversations and my research results, I was under the impression that they do some international deals (more) as a support team and some local Canadian deals. Since they do not regularly participate in the biggest or high profile Canadian deals, I would say other big Canadian full-service firms may be a better place to start your legal career in Canada if you receive offers from both. Nevertheless, these US representative offices would still be a good place to learn and gain exposure to quality work.

[Jaggers]

There's not really any downside to applying for an OCI. Obviously you don't want to do 100 in two days, but 20 is manageable if you can get that many.

[Rashabon]

9 hours ago, QueensDenning said:

Another edit: you think doing a 2L summer at PW or Skadden will narrow OP's career prospects anywhere? Really? 

Yes. If you want to practice in Canadian big law you are behind the eight ball working at PW or Skadden's Toronto offices. Unless you network well, it will preclude you from articling at a shop that actually does Canadian work and you'd then need to rely on lateralling in. Unless you want to go to New York long term, or try and stick it out at PW/Skadden Toronto long term, you still need to find articling after your summer to even become a lawyer.