Biglaw Articling Hours

[boyo]

Curious to know how articling has been going hours wise for students at larger firms. Are things busy? Slow? In a month, our hours around 140? 150? 200?

[boyo]

Okay everyone settle down - I know it's engaging topic.

[chaboywb]

I am not a student but my observation is that it has, generally, been slow in transactional and students don't seem to be too slammed. 

[KOMODO]

Honestly I've just gotten to a point in my life/career where I don't really have any sense of how busy or not busy our articling students are....it's also so much harder to tell now, because they're often randomly not in the office for certain days, and none of them ever stay late anymore. I find myself relying much more heavily on clerks and less on students than I used to. 

I'm going to sound like an old curmudgeon with a stick, but it used to be that you could tell how busy they were based on how many of them were still around after dinner. Conversely, last year one of our students told me that she "literally couldn't imagine" how people used to work in the office every day and "would rather not be a lawyer than have to stay till midnight". 😂

For anyone who is reading this and is an articling student, junior associate, etc....I strongly recommend being in the office MORE than the minimum requirement if at all possible. It's very very clear to me that our current new joiners are learning at a much slower pace than they used to. We as a firm can't force them to be here all the time, because we can't afford to have everyone quit, but they're sabotaging themselves in terms of technical skills development and growth. And there are enough senior lawyers around day to day lately that if students and juniors were here, they absolutely would have more opportunities for informal chats / skills development / shadowing /etc.

Just my elderly two cents 🙂

[GGrievous]

6 minutes ago, KOMODO said:

Conversely, last year one of our students told me that she "literally couldn't imagine" how people used to work in the office every day and "would rather not be a lawyer than have to stay till midnight".

damn kids these days.. trying to enjoy life 

[boyo]

On 4/13/2023 at 11:13 AM, chaboywb said:

I am not a student but my observation is that it has, generally, been slow in transactional and students don't seem to be too slammed. 

 

On 4/13/2023 at 2:15 PM, Barry said:

damn kids these days.. trying to enjoy life 

Thanks for the responses! Interesting to hear. Was hoping some current students would chime in.

With respect to working from home, my firm doesn't have a minimum amount of days to be in the office, but I'd say I'm in about three days a week. I don't think being in the office is a great tell of busyness though. If I know I'm going to have a long night (midnight or later), I try to leave the office by 4 or 5 to head home and work from there. It breaks the day up a bit and I'm more conformable working late at home knowing there's no commute between my work ending and getting to bed.

[SNAILS]

I worked for a small firm, not a big one. I'd typically come in 8:00 am and leave 5:00 to 7:00 pm. 

Considering I was sometimes in the office early (6:00 am) if it was going to be a busy day, I'd say I had maybe 50-55 hours per week working (I was eating lunch at my desk, so it was pretty much straight working through).

One unfortunate aspect of being a summer student is that it takes you longer to do things. I could probably be just as productive as last year in 40 hrs/wk now that I kind of know what I'm doing (but there will be newer and harder tasks).

[Kimura]

I generally get in between 9-9:30 am and typically stay until 9:30 pm. The other night I was in until past midnight. I try to be in at least 4 days a week. 

This generally means im in the office 40-50 hours a week, with weekend work, depending on how busy things are. In terms of docketing, it ranges from 35-65 hours a week when things get really busy. I'm busy, but factor in that the chats, coffee, etc. take up extra time that I don't tend to docket when I'm in the office. I'll usually try to take one weekend day off if I can. 

I get the whole wfh thing has changed how lawyers work, but as an articling student, your main job is to be available. I do believe part of being available is being physically present, especially if the lawyers you work with are physically present. 

For any articling students coming in - the hours get tough but it's 10 months and then you never have to article again. Next year I'll try to get out of the office around 7 so I can go home and have dinner with my wife lol. 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Kimura

[WhoKnows]

2 hours ago, Kimura said:

Next year I'll try to get out of the office around 7 so I can go home and have dinner with my wife lol. 

The key to this, I am finding 3-years in, is to start between 6:30 and 7:30.

[Vitron]

2 hours ago, Kimura said:

I generally get in between 9-9:30 am and typically stay until 9:30 pm. The other night I was in until past midnight. I try to be in at least 4 days a week. 

This generally means im in the office 40-50 hours a week, with weekend work, depending on how busy things are. In terms of docketing, it ranges from 35-65 hours a week when things get really busy. I'm busy, but factor in that the chats, coffee, etc. take up extra time that I don't tend to docket when I'm in the office. I'll usually try to take one weekend day off if I can. 

I get the whole wfh thing has changed how lawyers work, but as an articling student, your main job is to be available. I do believe part of being available is being physically present, especially if the lawyers you work with are physically present. 

For any articling students coming in - the hours get tough but it's 10 months and then you never have to article again. Next year I'll try to get out of the office around 7 so I can go home and have dinner with my wife lol. 

That is a lot. From first- and second-hand experience, 9 am - 9:30pm as a standard seems significantly above normal.

[Kimura]

53 minutes ago, WhoKnows said:

The key to this, I am finding 3-years in, is to start between 6:30 and 7:30.

I am not an early riser but I am working on it. 

49 minutes ago, Vitron said:

That is a lot. From first- and second-hand experience, 9 am - 9:30pm as a standard seems significantly above normal.

I have a longer commute so I tend to stay at the office to get my work done. If I'm not too busy I'll leave a bit earlier. But I generally tend to stay until 9 ish. 

I've actually heard of a number of students who stay even later than 9. One of my friends is consistently in the office until 11 pm. But as someone above pointed out, some people leave around 5-6 and go home and work. I guess it depends on what suits you. 

[chaboywb]

12 minutes ago, Kimura said:

I've actually heard of a number of students who stay even later than 9. One of my friends is consistently in the office until 11 pm. 

That's ridiculous, even if not completely abnormal. In the middle of an intense file, sure. But not as a baseline. We are paid well but not nearly well enough to justify spending 100% of our waking hours in the office.

[Kimura]

3 minutes ago, chaboywb said:

That's ridiculous, even if not completely abnormal. In the middle of an intense file, sure. But not as a baseline. We are paid well but not nearly well enough to justify spending 100% of our waking hours in the office.

It's unsustainable for sure. But Ive seen it first hand. 

[GGrievous]

On 4/13/2023 at 12:15 PM, Barry said:

damn kids these days.. trying to enjoy life 

after thinking about this comment I also want to add: damn kids these days... wanting big law salaries but not the hours

[Vitron]

47 minutes ago, chaboywb said:

That's ridiculous, even if not completely abnormal. In the middle of an intense file, sure. But not as a baseline. We are paid well but not nearly well enough to justify spending 100% of our waking hours in the office.

Pretty much this. In my experience, staying that late (even as an articling student in Big Law) is typically reserved for short, intense periods. 
 

Might be the norm somewhere like NY but to hear that some students are doing that daily is very surprising and not in-line with my experience. 
 

Edit: You are also allowed to say “No” to additional work and I think that would be totally permissible with such a workload.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Vitron

[Cool_name]

4 hours ago, Kimura said:

For any articling students coming in - the hours get tough but it's 10 months and then you never have to article again. 

Ya, you don’t have to article again, but that doesn’t necessarily mean the hours lighten up. Find a pace you can sustain in the long run.
 

For reference, as an associate my average day currently is 8 to 630/7, so i don’t know if I’d describe 9 to 9 as significantly above normal. That said I don’t work at a national firm or in Toronto, so take my comment with a grain of salt.

[WhoKnows]

1 hour ago, Kimura said:

I am not an early riser but I am working on it. 

Neither am I, at all. But I do love that on lighter days I can have billed all my hours by 3:30 and duck out.  

[hiccups]

1 hour ago, Cool_name said:

Ya, you don’t have to article again, but that doesn’t necessarily mean the hours lighten up. Find a pace you can sustain in the long run.
 

For reference, as an associate my average day currently is 8 to 630/7, so i don’t know if I’d describe 9 to 9 as significantly above normal. That said I don’t work at a national firm or in Toronto, so take my comment with a grain of salt.

My day is 9 - 7 with a few hours every weekend. I agree the articling hours were bad but not that big of a difference from associate life.  

[PzabbytheLawyer]

9-7 as a baseline, with busy periods meaning until 10/11, is in line with my experiences in private.

The key is finding a practice area you actually enjoy, people you like working with and for, and a firm that pays for your dinner when you pull late nights.

Hard to find such a unicorn 🙂

[chaboywb]

53 minutes ago, hiccups said:

My day is 9 - 7 with a few hours every weekend. I agree the articling hours were bad but not that big of a difference from associate life.  

2 hours ago, Cool_name said:

Ya, you don’t have to article again, but that doesn’t necessarily mean the hours lighten up. Find a pace you can sustain in the long run.
 

For reference, as an associate my average day currently is 8 to 630/7, so i don’t know if I’d describe 9 to 9 as significantly above normal. That said I don’t work at a national firm or in Toronto, so take my comment with a grain of salt.

There is a huge difference between working every day til 7pm and working til 9pm, let alone 11pm as the other poster mentioned. 

Edited April 19, 2023 by chaboywb

[boyo]

8 hours ago, Kimura said:

I generally get in between 9-9:30 am and typically stay until 9:30 pm. The other night I was in until past midnight. I try to be in at least 4 days a week. 

This generally means im in the office 40-50 hours a week, with weekend work, depending on how busy things are. In terms of docketing, it ranges from 35-65 hours a week when things get really busy. I'm busy, but factor in that the chats, coffee, etc. take up extra time that I don't tend to docket when I'm in the office. I'll usually try to take one weekend day off if I can. 

I get the whole wfh thing has changed how lawyers work, but as an articling student, your main job is to be available. I do believe part of being available is being physically present, especially if the lawyers you work with are physically present. 

For any articling students coming in - the hours get tough but it's 10 months and then you never have to article again. Next year I'll try to get out of the office around 7 so I can go home and have dinner with my wife lol. 

Are you at a big-law firm? If so, what areas have you mostly worked in?

[Kimura]

1 hour ago, boyo said:

Are you at a big-law firm? If so, what areas have you mostly worked in?

Yes. Toronto big law. Mainly tax, but I've done corporate, real estate and litigation as well. Really depends on what comes down the pipeline. I also work for a few partners who are consistently busy. 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Kimura

[OzLaw16]

I feel it's worth adding that the question of "when do you start working and when you do finish working" can be really misleading and unhelpful in the post-COVID world where working time is way more flexible. A time range can mean many different things depending on what someone's work style is and how they like to split up their day.

For a personal example, there have been many days lately where I start working at 9am and only finish working at 10pm. But that ignores the long gap I'll usually take between 6:30pm-8:30pm. I find that by the time I hit 6:30, my brain's ready for a proper break (not just 15-20 minutes of pacing around my apartment) and my focus is really recharged after that. If I left out all that context and just said "I start at 9am and finish at 10pm", that would lead people to think I'm working a 13-hour work day, which isn't true.

It seems like people are more hesitant to be open about what their billable hours tend to look like (or in the case of articling students, docketed hours since a lot of big firms assign articling students a sizeable amount of non-billable work), but that information is way more helpful than a vague time range.

[PzabbytheLawyer]

My private hours seemed to bill close to 1800 annually. My target always seemed a bit funny considering what I actually worked. 

I do know friends who end up working a lot for many months of the year, and hit a lull, so it averages out to around that 1700-1800 range.

[KOMODO]

20 hours ago, chaboywb said:

That's ridiculous, even if not completely abnormal. In the middle of an intense file, sure. But not as a baseline. We are paid well but not nearly well enough to justify spending 100% of our waking hours in the office.

I respectfully disagree. My experience, and the experience of most of my friends, was that we worked the hardest (longest hours) when we were students at big firms, and as associates (some of whom stayed, some of whom switched firms or went in house), we gained much more control and work life balance. It's a very short time in your life and basically a big job interview, plus you'll learn much more if you're putting in the hours and then start as an associate with a broader knowledge base. In terms of not being paid well enough....what?! Biglaw articling students are paid very well, and again, it's a job interview for a very high paying job over the rest of your career. If you're saying that articling students in smaller firms aren't paid well enough, then I would assume they are not working biglaw hours, but I would also assume that regardless of the place of your employment you are likely to work longer hours as a student than you will be as an associate because everything takes longer to complete as you learn how to do it.