What now? Not hired back after 2 summers and articling. Is there even a market for first year associates right now?

[IDK123456]

My firm did hire back this past week and cut a few of us, myself included. I've been with this firm since 1L and I'm feeling a bit lost on where to go from here. Everyone I've talked to so far has told me I'm going to have a hard time finding another position in big law right now, especially because I'm interested in corporate. Most people have recommended I start looking at boutiques and smaller firms that may be more insulated from the current recession. To be clear, I'm not opposed to this, I've just worked in big law for three years now, and genuinely enjoy the work and the type of transactions I've gotten the opportunity to see. 

I'm just feeling a bit lost and scared, and I don't really know where to go from here. I've started doing the obvious stuff, like updating my resume and gathering reference letters, but it feels like my dream job and the job that up until this week I thought I had is drifting away. What makes it even worse, is the firm I work for told me that their decision was not at all based on performance, I had the highest hours amongst the students, they said they just wanted to keep the team lean with the recession and the students they hired just had more people backing them. 

Any recommendations or words of inspiration are greatly appreciated. Also, if anyone at other firms has insight into whether or not their firm is taking first year associates that would also be really helpful. Thank you in advance. 

[McLovin]

I'm sorry to hear that. AFAIK, one option might be to contact people who are in charge of student or associate hiring at firms that do the kind of work that you are interested in. From what I have heard, that is how some people previously found first year associate jobs after either not being hired back at all (voluntarily or involuntarily) or not being hired back into the group they wanted to be hired back into.

I won't ask for the name of your firm, but I am curious to know if the office you were working in is in Toronto? And out of the ones that were not hired back at your firm, which practice area were they aiming to get hired back into? Were you given choices (like "we will hire you back but only if it's as part of [group that needs more bodies right now]") or was their decision-making more like "it's either corporate or nothing"? How big was your class size (<5, 5-15, 15+)? Thanks in advance.

Cheer up, OP. Recessions do not last forever. Your experience is presumably very valuable and there are many other law firms and companies that I bet would love to hire you if they have the means to do so.

[PzabbytheLawyer]

Sorry to hear. I recommend you speak with whomever said that and ask them if they're willing to provide a reference to that effect. Not being hired back due to business reasons is different than otherwise. It would help you.

Network. Ask your bosses if they know of other good lawyers doing the work you do. You may not be getting into big law right away (though don't close that door), but there are a lot of lawyers doing similar work that would give you transferable skills. In a year, two, or three, you'll be able to go back - if you still want to.

[chaboywb]

There are lots of opportunities out there, even in a down market. I wouldn't panic. If you look through the job histories of current big law partners, you will see that many started at smaller firms or were in-house for a significant portion of their careers. This is not the end, it's just a slight diversion. If you end up at a corporate boutique, you'll likely even get more hands-on experience than you would working on transactions as a first-year associate in big law.

Your firm will want to see you land well as it sounds like you were a strong student. Be sure to use any and all resources they make available to you - referrals, letters, career counselling, etc. I guarantee it will feel awkward, but ask partners out to coffee and make it clear that you're looking for a job. All it takes is for them to know someone who is looking and you're set.

I won't tell you to cheer up, because it's a really shitty situation to be in. But it will pass.

Edited April 24, 2023 by chaboywb

[IDK123456]

3 hours ago, McLovin said:

I'm sorry to hear that. AFAIK, one option might be to contact people who are in charge of student or associate hiring at firms that do the kind of work that you are interested in. From what I have heard, that is how some people previously found first year associate jobs after either not being hired back at all (voluntarily or involuntarily) or not being hired back into the group they wanted to be hired back into.

I won't ask for the name of your firm, but I am curious to know if the office you were working in is in Toronto? And out of the ones that were not hired back at your firm, which practice area were they aiming to get hired back into? Were you given choices (like "we will hire you back but only if it's as part of [group that needs more bodies right now]") or was their decision-making more like "it's either corporate or nothing"? How big was your class size (<5, 5-15, 15+)? Thanks in advance.

Cheer up, OP. Recessions do not last forever. Your experience is presumably very valuable and there are many other law firms and companies that I bet would love to hire you if they have the means to do so.

 

I'll try and tell you what I can without completely doxxing myself. My firm is in Toronto and one of the few that does the 1L recruit, but has probably one of the smallest class sizes on the street. Above 10 but not by much. From the beginning they had an oversubscription of students interested in their transactional groups, like over a majority of the class. We were hopeful that they would find a way to fit us all, but they ended up cutting quite a few of us. Some were given a back up option if they indicated they were potentially interested in another group, but I was not as I made it clear my interest was corporate (perhaps a mistake looking back). 

[reaperlaw]

9 hours ago, IDK123456 said:

I'll try and tell you what I can without completely doxxing myself. My firm is in Toronto and one of the few that does the 1L recruit, but has probably one of the smallest class sizes on the street. Above 10 but not by much. From the beginning they had an oversubscription of students interested in their transactional groups, like over a majority of the class. We were hopeful that they would find a way to fit us all, but they ended up cutting quite a few of us. Some were given a back up option if they indicated they were potentially interested in another group, but I was not as I made it clear my interest was corporate (perhaps a mistake looking back). 

It's not really a mistake if that's the only thing you are interested in. To be sure, it is easier to find another position even if its a different practice area if you were hired back into big law. But you don't know for sure you would've been given that backup opportunity. Regardless, there's nothing you can do about it now.

Lean on the people you were close to at the firm to ask if they know of any opportunities elsewhere/can put you in touch with someone. Before recent years when it was much more common that everyone was hired back, this was how many people landed elsewhere (often at competing shops to the place they were a recent). Don't feel shame to ask the student coordinator for help either. If that doesn't pan out, you just have to keep applying/looking out for opportunities. You have big law experience, you will land somewhere decent and you'll be able to get back to big law eventually if that's not your next stop. Pretty much even the crappy former big law articling students land on their feet.

[Sallyplants95]

Sorry to hear. Yet another reason why I detest Canada’s Articling requirement. 

Apply to New York City firms. There’s plenty of recruiters in LinkedIn who specialize in recruiting bay street talent to New York City firms. 
 

You may get your Articling counted towards annual compensation. So $230K US ($314K CAD) plus a $60K median bonus. That’s nearly $300K US per year or $400K CA. This type of money will heal any wounds, believe me. It did for me.
 

My old Bay Street firm is irrelevant cause despite their inflated ego… they are nobodies compared to Wall Street firms. 

[Geworfenheit]

6 hours ago, Sallyplants95 said:

Sorry to hear. Yet another reason why I detest Canada’s Articling requirement. 

Apply to New York City firms. There’s plenty of recruiters in LinkedIn who specialize in recruiting bay street talent to New York City firms. 
 

You may get your Articling counted towards annual compensation. So $230K US ($314K CAD) plus a $60K median bonus. That’s nearly $300K US per year or $400K CA. This type of money will heal any wounds, believe me. It did for me.
 

My old Bay Street firm is irrelevant cause despite their inflated ego… they are nobodies compared to Wall Street firms. 

Sorry to jump in, but I was wondering if there's truly a market for lateral junior associates in New York right bow. Given the recent lay offs across US big law firms, I feel there can be a hiring freeze for laterals (especially junior laterals coming from Canada). Maybe the market will bounce back later this year or next year, but I doubt if there're currently cross border lateral opportunities for new calls.

[Sallyplants95]

19 minutes ago, Geworfenheit said:

Sorry to jump in, but I was wondering if there's truly a market for lateral junior associates in New York right bow. Given the recent lay offs across US big law firms, I feel there can be a hiring freeze for laterals (especially junior laterals coming from Canada). Maybe the market will bounce back later this year or next year, but I doubt if there're currently cross border lateral opportunities for new calls.

The market is certainly not what it was in 2021. But top firms are still hiring top Canadian quality talent. The recent layoffs have been on key markets bloated by the COVID boom (think tech). LinkedIn is your friend. Follow head hunting firms. Google is your friend. 

Do remember all Canadians have to get sponsored by their future employers. Many Canadians think they can just “move” to the US. We are no different than Mexicans or Koreans wanting to come to the USA. It’s significantly easier to lateral if you can claim US citizenship. I was able to through my mother. 

[mistertubby]

27 minutes ago, Sallyplants95 said:

Do remember all Canadians have to get sponsored by their future employers. Many Canadians think they can just “move” to the US. We are no different than Mexicans or Koreans wanting to come to the USA. It’s significantly easier to lateral if you can claim US citizenship. I was able to through my mother. 

my impression was moving to the US was pretty easy because of the TN visa? 

[Sallyplants95]

The TN visa is a nonimmigrant visa which means you can remain in the U.S. only while working for the employer who sponsored you for the TN position. A TN visa can be granted for a maximum of three years. However, there is no limit to the number of times you can renew or extend your TN visa.  If you want to move to the United States, your firm needs to sponsor you with an immigrant work visa. Many law firms do not offer this because it’s expensive and time consuming. 

[IDK123456]

On 4/30/2023 at 6:56 AM, Sallyplants95 said:

Sorry to hear. Yet another reason why I detest Canada’s Articling requirement. 

Apply to New York City firms. There’s plenty of recruiters in LinkedIn who specialize in recruiting bay street talent to New York City firms. 
 

You may get your Articling counted towards annual compensation. So $230K US ($314K CAD) plus a $60K median bonus. That’s nearly $300K US per year or $400K CA. This type of money will heal any wounds, believe me. It did for me.
 

My old Bay Street firm is irrelevant cause despite their inflated ego… they are nobodies compared to Wall Street firms. 

 

I really appreciate the advice, and I will definitely look into it. I didn't really consider the New York firms as I wasn't too sure if my grades were high enough, I have a high B+. 

Did you just find recruiters on Linkedin and message them? 

[Sallyplants95]

17 hours ago, IDK123456 said:

I really appreciate the advice, and I will definitely look into it. I didn't really consider the New York firms as I wasn't too sure if my grades were high enough, I have a high B+. 

Did you just find recruiters on Linkedin and message them? 

Yes. Approach the challenge like a legal research question.

LinkedIn is your Westlaw. There are at least three top boutique recruitment firms that focus in hiring Canadian talent. 
 

Best of luck, my friend. Your Articling bleep is just a small part of your career. Get that Wall  Street job and make it rain. 

I had a high B+ as well. But I had several years of work experience at a top-tier global consulting firm before law school. The consulting experience helped me. 

Yes. Get hustling. 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Sallyplants95

[WilliamMoore]

First of all, I'm sorry you're going through this. Not being hired back is an incredibly stressful and frustrating experience. It's probably not helpful now, but remember that your firm's shitty political/business decision does not reflect upon your ability as a lawyer and this setback will almost certainly be a blip in your overall career.

I don't believe you should focus your efforts on applying to NYC firms. The reality is that the NYC big law hiring market is significantly worse right now than 2021/2022, particularly for juniors. I'd imagine the market for Canadian laterals coming off their articling year is extremely soft at the moment (outside of a few high demand speciality areas) and making a move would be difficult unless you are a truly outstanding candidate. If you do decide to go this route, set up some calls with reputable recruiters and discuss your options. They will hopefully be able to connect you with realistic opportunities so you can avoid wasting your time.

From what I've seen, the path of least resistance for associates not hired back is to leverage connections they made during their summers/articling year to set up an associate position at another firm. It's a really small community and it's in the firm's best interests to have its articling students land on their feet. I would start out by talking to your student coordinator and ask if they are aware of any other firms hiring first years. I know of a few colleagues who were able to find high quality first year associate positions through this route. If they are unable to connect you, set up meetings with partners with whom you worked closely and ask if they would be willing to introduce you to anyone. It sounds like the decision not to hire you back was based on reasons outside of your control, so I imagine many at your firm with empathize with your position and be willing to lend a hand.

Wishing you the best of luck.

[IDK123456]

I really appreciate all the advice I've gotten so far, I have been checking this thread everyday and I truly appreciate all the guidance. 

By way of an update, I've applied to over 30 firms across Toronto and Vancouver, and a majority have indicated that despite having an impressive application, they aren't in a position to hire any first year associates into corporate. Some of the partners and senior associates at my firm are reaching out to their contacts at the firms on my list but it's not looking good.

This whole situation just makes me angry. I spent 3 years at this firm and they kept telling us hireback wasn't an issue and the recession wouldn't make a difference and I regret listening to them. I just regret not doing OCIs when I had the chance, I would (potentially) be somewhere way bigger and more insulated and wouldn't have been let go due to budgetary issues. 

I'm just feeling profoundly discouraged and unsure of what to do now. I'm starting to apply to smaller boutiques but I'm just overall bitter and angry that I was put in this position at all. I think my takeaway and my advice to people just starting out, (as bad as it sounds) don't be loyal, if there is something bigger and better out there always go for it, don't ignore the warning signs and don't get caught up because you like the people. 

I'm sorry about the rant and the woe is me vibes, I'm just bitter and regretting my choices. I'm fully aware that I am in a position of privilege regardless of how it feels right now and that this will be a blip in my career overall, it's just tough to see over this hurdle at the moment. 

Edited May 7, 2023 by IDK123456

[PzabbytheLawyer]

Hey. Feel free to reach out to me if you'd like to chat.

 

I'm sure you'll do just fine. It seems like you're going through a tough time. It's good you acknowledge this is just a blip, because it is.

Make sure you're financially okay in the short term, take a reset trip, breathe, and come back to the table. 

you will be okay.

[Sallyplants95]

On 5/1/2023 at 10:47 PM, IDK123456 said:

I really appreciate the advice, and I will definitely look into it. I didn't really consider the New York firms as I wasn't too sure if my grades were high enough, I have a high B+. 

Did you just find recruiters on Linkedin and message them? 

 

On 5/3/2023 at 7:55 PM, Professor Lupin said:

Nice, thanks for your perspective. How are you liking the US vs. what I presume was a Bay St law job? I haven't considered the US, but the pay is obviously quite a lot more than Canada

 

16 hours ago, IDK123456 said:

I really appreciate all the advice I've gotten so far, I have been checking this thread everyday and I truly appreciate all the guidance. 

By way of an update, I've applied to over 30 firms across Toronto and Vancouver, and a majority have indicated that despite having an impressive application, they aren't in a position to hire any first year associates into corporate. Some of the partners and senior associates at my firm are reaching out to their contacts at the firms on my list but it's not looking good.

This whole situation just makes me angry. I spent 3 years at this firm and they kept telling us hireback wasn't an issue and the recession wouldn't make a difference and I regret listening to them. I just regret not doing OCIs when I had the chance, I would (potentially) be somewhere way bigger and more insulated and wouldn't have been let go due to budgetary issues. 

I'm just feeling profoundly discouraged and unsure of what to do now. I'm starting to apply to smaller boutiques but I'm just overall bitter and angry that I was put in this position at all. I think my takeaway and my advice to people just starting out, (as bad as it sounds) don't be loyal, if there is something bigger and better out there always go for it, don't ignore the warning signs and don't get caught up because you like the people. 

I'm sorry about the rant and the woe is me vibes, I'm just bitter and regretting my choices. I'm fully aware that I am in a position of privilege regardless of how it feels right now and that this will be a blip in my career overall, it's just tough to see over this hurdle at the moment. 

Amen to this post. I second the “don’t be loyal” sage advice. Articling students are cheap talent for most law firms. These firms do not care about us.
 

Most partners just care about making money and spending whatever little time they have left with their families. This is it not necessarily “bad” but simply recognizing a truth. We do not matter. We are cheap labour. 

And let’s not forget that half of LSO benchers voted against mandatory Articling salaries lol. The whole Articling system is absolute bullshit. I have been involved with summer associate hiring in my U.S. based firm and they take it extremely serious because they are the full time associate pipeline. In Canada? Nope. Simply Articling. Cheap labour.

no thanks. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Sallyplants95

[Rashabon]

Honestly your posts come across as bitter and divorced from reality. That attitude may prevail in smaller firms but big law firms absolutely do not view articling students as cheap labour. It is a massive time and cost sink in order to develop a pipeline of talent. I gain no real value from an articling student most of the time because they don’t know a single thing they’re doing. But it’s a learning opportunity for them and a training opportunity for me.

[QueensDenning]

Also there are public statistics for each firm in terms of how many articling students are hired as associates (going back 10+ years). It's fairly clear generally, most articling students are re hired as associates. 

[Sallyplants95]

1 hour ago, Rashabon said:

Honestly your posts come across as bitter and divorced from reality. That attitude may prevail in smaller firms but big law firms absolutely do not view articling students as cheap labour. It is a massive time and cost sink in order to develop a pipeline of talent. I gain no real value from an articling student most of the time because they don’t know a single thing they’re doing. But it’s a learning opportunity for them and a training opportunity for me.

I articled at a Bay Street “Seven Sister” firm. I now work at “Vault 10” law firm in New York City. 

Articling students are there to decompress busy associates and partners. It’s the honest truth. No bitterness but simple economic reality. 

RE: “bitter and divorced from reality” comment. Cynical? Perhaps. But bitter and divorced from reality? Not quite. 

Have a good one. 

[AHappyLawyer]

Shoot me a PM. I was in a similar situation in a Covid hireback year. Happy to chat as well.

[PzabbytheLawyer]

3 hours ago, Rashabon said:

Honestly your posts come across as bitter and divorced from reality. That attitude may prevail in smaller firms but big law firms absolutely do not view articling students as cheap labour. It is a massive time and cost sink in order to develop a pipeline of talent. I gain no real value from an articling student most of the time because they don’t know a single thing they’re doing. But it’s a learning opportunity for them and a training opportunity for me.

Having spoken with my friends on Bay, I'd actually tend to agree with you. Bay street understands economics, and they understand that it's far more valuable to them to train good lawyers, than to use them as cheap labour. Cheap labour is.. cheap, and replaceable. Good lawyers, trained from the beginning, are not.

I do agree a significant amount of the legal profession does view articling as a way to reduce overhead and not hire associates. How much, and who does, isn't easy to figure out.

[Rashabon]

20 hours ago, Sallyplants95 said:

I articled at a Bay Street “Seven Sister” firm. I now work at “Vault 10” law firm in New York City. 

Articling students are there to decompress busy associates and partners. It’s the honest truth. No bitterness but simple economic reality. 

RE: “bitter and divorced from reality” comment. Cynical? Perhaps. But bitter and divorced from reality? Not quite. 

Have a good one. 

Yes I’ve read your posts. I got the message you didn’t get hired back or something similar. Trying to swing a big dick about working in New York instead of Toronto (as per your earlier post) is a sign of insecurity more than anything.

Articling students at the good shops are not there for decompression. They are there to provide a talent pipeline. It is more work for me to use an articling student than not, most of the time. Especially with the pace of technology changes where simple tasks articling students can actually do aren’t as time consuming. Yeah I can use students on long term or large research projects, one of the few areas they provide any value. But otherwise they are less well trained, less competent, less efficient junior associates who are there to learn.

[Sallyplants95]

1 hour ago, Rashabon said:

Yes I’ve read your posts. I got the message you didn’t get hired back or something similar. Trying to swing a big dick about working in New York instead of Toronto (as per your earlier post) is a sign of insecurity more than anything.

Articling students at the good shops are not there for decompression. They are there to provide a talent pipeline. It is more work for me to use an articling student than not, most of the time. Especially with the pace of technology changes where simple tasks articling students can actually do aren’t as time consuming. Yeah I can use students on long term or large research projects, one of the few areas they provide any value. But otherwise they are less well trained, less competent, less efficient junior associates who are there to learn.

Focus on the substance of arguments not ad hominem attacks.

Quite the assumption you made there about my gender there too RE: “swinging a big dick.
 

Insecurity? Or does the truth— that Bay Street is a relative small market— difficult to swallow?  The size of the US legal market is about $100B CAD. Ontarios GDP is about $900B CAD.  We are peanuts. Time to step off your Bay Street horse and face reality. We aren’t as important as we think we are lol. 

[CleanHands]

The inflated sense that BigLaw articling students tend to have about how much value they add to the firm is always cute.