Do employers hire based off first year grades?

[EdmontonLaw]

My lawyer cousin (hes in California) said that law firms only really care about your first year grades and he said to use the following 2 years to establish connections. Is it different in Canada? 

[ruthlessfox]

First year grades are considered to be the most important because they are what employers will look at when you recruit for a 2L summer position, which is what usually leads to your articling position (or in the US, a full-time associate offer). After they have secured a job, most law students take their foot off the gas in terms of academics, and focus on other things, like extracurriculars or their social lives. If you have not secured a job, firms will care about all grades you have up until that point. I've never heard of someone focusing on establishing connections for two years (I'm not sure what that looks like), but I suppose it wouldn't hurt. 

[CleanHands]

Your 1L JD grades will be the most important academic grades you will ever receive in your life.

It's true that people can (and regularly do) go on to fulfilling careers regardless, and that law students shouldn't act like the sky is falling if their 1L grades are less than perfect. But it's undeniable that they absolutely will be literally fully determinative of whether many different particular doors are open to you.

[EdmontonLaw]

45 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

Your 1L JD grades will be the most important academic grades you will ever receive in your life.

It's true that people can (and regularly do) go on to fulfilling careers regardless, and that law students shouldn't act like the sky is falling if their 1L grades are less than perfect. But it's undeniable that they absolutely will be literally fully determinative of whether many different particular doors are open to you.

The thought of that is terrifying. Imagine you’re having a bad year personally and because of that your salary for the rest of your life is lower. Also your first lsat attempt is super important I assume.

[Yogurt Baron]

4 minutes ago, EdmontonLaw said:

Also your first lsat attempt is super important I assume.

...no.

[EdmontonLaw]

18 minutes ago, Yogurt Baron said:

...no.

But a lot of law schools only take your first attempt correct? Or they average out your first and second

[LMP]

1 minute ago, EdmontonLaw said:

But a lot of law schools only take your first attempt correct? Or they average out your first and second

No. Almost every Canadian law school will take your highest score. 

[EdmontonLaw]

1 minute ago, LMP said:

No. Almost every Canadian law school will take your highest score. 

Wow thats crazy. I think all my law school knowledge is from an American perspective which I’m learning is nothing like Canada. I know UBC takes you best lsat, but UofT as well?

[LMP]

1 minute ago, EdmontonLaw said:

Wow thats crazy. I think all my law school knowledge is from an American perspective which I’m learning is nothing like Canada. I know UBC takes you best lsat, but UofT as well?

Yup, pretty much everyone. I think there is just the one school that averages LSAT scores (maybe Calgary?). 

[Yogurt Baron]

22 minutes ago, EdmontonLaw said:

Wow thats crazy. I think all my law school knowledge is from an American perspective which I’m learning is nothing like Canada. I know UBC takes you best lsat, but UofT as well?

I haven't applied in years, but last I heard, every law school in Canada considers your best LSAT. UCalgary says, "If you have written the LSAT more than once, we will use your highest score to group your file statistically; however, all of your scores from the past 5 years, your average score, and the number of times you have written the LSAT will be taken into account when reviewing your application."

EDIT: sorry, I had misunderstood what thread this was on and asked for a splice in fairness to the OP so we didn't get derailed with EdmontonLaw's question. But since it's EdmontonLaw's thread, consider that withdrawn.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Yogurt Baron
added info re: Calgary

[Letsgo]

McGill averages your scores.

[EdmontonLaw]

2 hours ago, Letsgo said:

McGill averages your scores.

so does University of Alberta. Thats why I thought it was that way for all law schools but I guess not. I would imagine too many LSAT attempts would be a negative to admission officers though.

[CheeseToast]

In Edmonton (and AB generally, outside of a few firms) your first semester grades are by far the most important.

[Pantalaimon]

On 5/21/2023 at 8:12 PM, LMP said:

Yup, pretty much everyone. I think there is just the one school that averages LSAT scores (maybe Calgary?). 

Calgary takes your best. The # of writes and average score are fuzzy "holistic factors", take that for what you will.

[Jean-Ralphio Saperstein]

On 5/21/2023 at 8:53 PM, CleanHands said:

Your 1L JD grades will be the most important academic grades you will ever receive in your life.

It's true that people can (and regularly do) go on to fulfilling careers regardless, and that law students shouldn't act like the sky is falling if their 1L grades are less than perfect. But it's undeniable that they absolutely will be literally fully determinative of whether many different particular doors are open to you.

Well shit. I went through so many personal issues in 1L and emerged with nothing but plain B's and two C's. Am I screwed? 

[CleanHands]

1 hour ago, Jean-Ralphio Saperstein said:

Well shit. I went through so many personal issues in 1L and emerged with nothing but plain B's and two C's. Am I screwed? 

I'm sorry to hear that.

My recollection is that before you started law school you posted about wanting to go in to legal academia, and the bad news is that that is almost certainly off the table now. You'll also be fighting an uphill battle getting any OCI jobs.

The good news is that you have time to improve your grades for the articling recruit, and that even with bottom-of-the-class grades there are some very cool careers to be had in law if you have the right interests (e.g. as a criminal lawyer who wanted to be a criminal lawyer from the time I applied to law school, I would have sweated JD grades less during school if I knew then what I know now about how little they matter for the kind of career I wanted and how quickly that becomes apparent once you start work).

Edited June 15, 2023 by CleanHands

[amgfan642]

On 5/22/2023 at 5:25 PM, EdmontonLaw said:

so does University of Alberta. Thats why I thought it was that way for all law schools but I guess not. I would imagine too many LSAT attempts would be a negative to admission officers though.

this is not true anymore, they take the highest LSAT now

[Spreckles]

On 5/21/2023 at 9:39 PM, EdmontonLaw said:

The thought of that is terrifying. Imagine you’re having a bad year personally and because of that your salary for the rest of your life is lower. Also your first lsat attempt is super important I assume.

While it is somewhat true, the way this is written is fear mongering. There are so many variables and twists and turns in life that the effect of first year grades on your career diminishes over time. FWIW I had mediocre first year grades and while I did have to hustle, I'm now the GC of a multimillion dollar company with a salary to match. It's not guaranteed that your career is doomed because of your grades. 

[CleanHands]

24 minutes ago, Spreckles said:

While it is somewhat true, the way this is written is fear mongering. There are so many variables and twists and turns in life that the effect of first year grades on your career diminishes over time. FWIW I had mediocre first year grades and while I did have to hustle, I'm now the GC of a multimillion dollar company with a salary to match. It's not guaranteed that your career is doomed because of your grades. 

Didn't say anyone's "career was doomed" over 1L grades. Explicitly wrote the opposite of that, actually.

One of the people in this thread had previously written that they wanted a career in legal academia and that's actually a very clear example of a path that one can pretty confidently predict is not happening with bad 1L grades though.

Edited September 18, 2023 by CleanHands

[Spreckles]

No you didn't day that but a couple students took that message from what you said. Your phrasing was absolutist and I just wanted to soften it for those who became legitimately concerned by it ("Am I screwed?")  

[BlockedQuebecois]

Ending up as the GC of a multimillion-dollar company sounds like the literal worst-case scenario. 

[Jaggers]

Yeah, but if you're only an imaginary online one, it's probably quite fun!

[SmallBart]

On 6/15/2023 at 2:30 PM, CleanHands said:

I'm sorry to hear that.

My recollection is that before you started law school you posted about wanting to go in to legal academia, and the bad news is that that is almost certainly off the table now. You'll also be fighting an uphill battle getting any OCI jobs.

The good news is that you have time to improve your grades for the articling recruit, and that even with bottom-of-the-class grades there are some very cool careers to be had in law if you have the right interests (e.g. as a criminal lawyer who wanted to be a criminal lawyer from the time I applied to law school, I would have sweated JD grades less during school if I knew then what I know now about how little they matter for the kind of career I wanted and how quickly that becomes apparent once you start work).

As someone who's considering law as a career change, this is a pretty strong complicating factor for me. I'm almost exclusively interested in corporate solicitor work and worry about having everything count on 1L grades after a long time away from school. Am I correct in assuming that there isn't really a viable path to working in business law outside of killing it in 1L and landing a job in the recruit? The Ultra Vires 2L recruit numbers make it seem like 25-30% make it, even in relatively competitive schools like UBC and Osgoode (UofT being the outlier)

[Chef Justice]

There's a lot of factors at play, but the most predictable factor is your grades in determining success in the recruit. At least at most Ontario law schools, you really need to at least be in the top half of your class to give yourself a fair chance. However, even if you don't land in the Toronto Recruit, you can still do business law in other markets. Additionally, a few big firms participate in the articling recruit every year. But yes, there is no avoiding how important 1L grades are.

[scooter]

There is always more than one way to get into a field. The recruit is obviously the easiest and most straightforward for corporate law, but it’s not recruit or bust. 

Edited January 1 by scooter