What now? Advice for re-applying.

[Lawlawland]

Hey guys, so before applying I had overestimated my chances and had thought my cGPA would be higher since its 84% BEFORE the olsas conversion. I applied to only 5 schools, all in ontario and all fairly competitive (UOFT, ottawa, osgoode, queens, western). I have only been waitlisted at queens and western. Any advice for re-applying nov 1st this year, other than rewriting the lsat, that can boost my chances for an acceptance? I feel like if I got waitlisted, and rejected at ottawa and osgoode late june, I was still in consideration until the very end. 

cGPA 3.36, l2 3.65, lsat 163.

I am planning on applying more broadly across canada (which is something I regretted not doing before). However, is there any advice for what I could do between now and Nov 1st to make my application more appealing? 

[bluebean]

Your stats are solid - on par with the average profile for most of these schools. It also looks like nothing particularly stands out (average cGPA/L2/LSAT). One option is to push one of those above average…but I have a feeling that you weren’t admitted because perhaps your PS wasn’t particularly strong or notable. 

I’d recommend seriously focusing on your PS and having a variety of people look over it. Make it personal and make it stand out. Remember, they’re reading hundreds - if not thousands - of statements. Does what you have now seem like something that would catch someone’s eye? 

With those stats, you shouldn’t necessarily have a problem getting into places like UOttawa, Queen’s, Western, given a thoughtful PS. For next cycle, try applying to Windsor, Dal, UofC/UofA as well. You’ll surely get into one or more of them. 

[PlayALawyerOnTV]

Your L2 are solid, as is your LSAT score. If you feel that you can improve your LSAT then it could be worth rewriting it, but you should take an honest, critical look at whether or not you think you'll be able to improve on your score. 

I'd echo the above regarding your personal statement as an area to potentially improve. I think that in general the PS is something that a lot of applicants devalue, but a good one can certainly push an application over the top.

[Thrive92]

As others have posted above, polish your personal statement and possibly take your LSAT if you can.

163 is a great score (as well as your cgpa/l2), but if you would like to improve your chances of being admitted, you might as well try everything you possibly can.

I would also recommend doing some additional courses online via athabasca/tru - ol if you would like to further improve your gpa. Although many law schools would not consider courses taken after graduation, there are some that do (U of C and U of A as long as the courses are not introductory courses...there may be more law schools, but those are the ones I know).

As you have said already on your post, applying more broadly may drastically increase your chances. Im assuming you would like to study in Ontario and are not from there right now (based on your OLSAS score conversion). Dalhousie looks at your L2 or your cgpa (whichever is greater), and U of Sask looks at your best 2 years only. TRU looks at your L20 courses with some exceptions.

 

Good luck.

[GBear1]

On 7/26/2021 at 10:05 AM, Lawlawland said:

Hey guys, so before applying I had overestimated my chances and had thought my cGPA would be higher since its 84% BEFORE the olsas conversion. I applied to only 5 schools, all in ontario and all fairly competitive (UOFT, ottawa, osgoode, queens, western). I have only been waitlisted at queens and western. Any advice for re-applying nov 1st this year, other than rewriting the lsat, that can boost my chances for an acceptance? I feel like if I got waitlisted, and rejected at ottawa and osgoode late june, I was still in consideration until the very end. 

cGPA 3.36, l2 3.65, lsat 163.

I am planning on applying more broadly across canada (which is something I regretted not doing before). However, is there any advice for what I could do between now and Nov 1st to make my application more appealing? 

 

Just one recent accepted law student's perspective, so don't take any of this as gospel:

I'd be careful with re-taking the LSAT as you already have a solid score which is more than competitive for every Canadian law school. Some schools also follow a more "wholistic" application process, meaning life experiences and extra-curricular background is important--that may be something you can iron out in your applications.

My experience was similar to yours, but your LSAT is a few points better than mine (my stats: special considerations applicant; L2 GPA = ~3.9; cGPA = ~3.6; LSAT = 156, 158; heavy extra-curricular involvement [varsity athlete, faculty research assistant, heavy volunteering history]; undergrad = BEd with Distinction).

I got rejected originally in 2019 but I also had some deficiencies in my application package. For example, I had an F in an online class--I used the class to access instructional materials strictly to prepare myself to challenge and skip a course at my home institution. There was always a logical reason behind the F, and my home institution didn't care about it; however, a transcript for a law school application with nothing but an F on the page isn't particularly appealing. The problem I had was there was nowhere within the standard application where I could explain away the "red flag", so to speak. 

I applied again for this cycle, but I found a way to explain myself and provide a more solidified application by applying as a special considerations candidate (I'm ESL and, though I don't like the term, I have a "learning disability" on record). This provided me a space to explain the F, but also opened up an opportunity to provide more depth to my application that I couldn't originally fit within a 500-1000 word personal statement (e.g. though I technically have a learning disability, I don't consider myself learning disabled). I was also able to submit a ton of "evidence" to highlight items in my application (e.g. emails between me and my home institution regarding taking the online course in order to skip a course, evidence of learning disability, etc.). The other area special considerations helped with was reference letters, which I had great options for.  I noticed in recent years a lot of schools removed this requirement, and many others dropped it for standard applicants in response to the pandemic. But for any sort of special considerations applicant, you almost always need at least 2.

Long story short, I ended up getting accepted for this upcoming class of 2024; I even had options of schools to choose between this time, whereas a few years ago I didn't get a single yes. I really didn't change anything concrete other than picking up a couple new positions to add to my resume. The biggest difference was my overall application was cleaner in terms of providing the best picture for who I was as an applicant, and in terms of showing each university why I'd make their law school a better place. I was lucky enough to use the special considerations category/categories to facilitate that. 

In my humble opinion, if I were you I'd consider the following:

1 - what does the law school's student body currently comprise of, what is their vision, and how can I match my application so that I'm a good fit?

2 - get applications in ASAP, as soon as the application period opens! (rolling admissions are huge, particularly in the pandemic/post-pandemic world)

3 - can I take advantage of any application "extras" (e.g. special considerations category, mature student status, reference letters, additional writing samples/statements, part-time status, etc.)

4 - LSAT improvement (I'd be cautious unless I knew I could improve by at least 3-5 stress-free points)

5 - resume building (e.g. find an entry-level role in the legal profession; find a people-oriented position like a consultant, or an analyst; find a job where you're helping people, working with vulnerable populations, getting your hands on real world, confidential matters; etc.)

6 - keep applying until they say yes

7 - depends on how bad you want to become a lawyer, consider schools abroad (e.g. England/Australia have some decent schools, but it's always going to be a challenge coming back)

 

Best of luck and see you on the other side!

[CleanHands]

10 minutes ago, GBear1 said:

I'd be careful with re-taking the LSAT as you already have a solid score which is more than competitive for every Canadian law school.

Bad advice.

This very much overstates the strength of a 163 LSAT, which is below median for a few schools and just above median for many schools. It especially overstates things in the context of the OP's slightly below-average grades for admission to most of the stronger schools. An increase of a few points could literally make the difference between admission to several schools or not.

There is also close to nothing to lose by retaking.

[Disbarred]

On 7/26/2021 at 12:05 PM, Lawlawland said:

Hey guys, so before applying I had overestimated my chances and had thought my cGPA would be higher since its 84% BEFORE the olsas conversion. I applied to only 5 schools, all in ontario and all fairly competitive (UOFT, ottawa, osgoode, queens, western). I have only been waitlisted at queens and western. Any advice for re-applying nov 1st this year, other than rewriting the lsat, that can boost my chances for an acceptance? I feel like if I got waitlisted, and rejected at ottawa and osgoode late june, I was still in consideration until the very end. 

cGPA 3.36, l2 3.65, lsat 163.

I am planning on applying more broadly across canada (which is something I regretted not doing before). However, is there any advice for what I could do between now and Nov 1st to make my application more appealing? 

Are you sure your numbers are right? 84% gpa —> 3.36 does not seem possible. I had a similar gpa percentage wise and was above 3.7 on OLSAS 

[GBear1]

17 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

Bad advice.

This very much overstates the strength of a 163 LSAT, which is below median for a few schools and just above median for many schools. It especially overstates things in the context of the OP's slightly below-average grades for admission to most of the stronger schools. An increase of a few points could literally make the difference between admission to several schools or not.

There is also close to nothing to lose by retaking.

Respectfully, "there is also close to nothing to lose by retaking" is worse advice and pretty dishonest. 

A re-write or two isn't a big deal, but how can you say there's nothing to lose without understanding any of background context? Firstly, some schools average LSAT grades (see the University of Alberta). Some schools also consider amount of re-writes taken even though they don't average scores, and that's not to mention that there are limits to how many times you can re-write the test (5 times within the current and five past testing years; 7 times total over lifetime). It's not that black and white when it comes to whether or not to re-write the LSAT.

Secondly, I have multiple colleagues/contacts within application committees (I've been on some myself, although not for law school) and they'll all tell you the same thing regarding something like LSAT #'s. Your application is sorted with other similar applications. For example, a 163 LSAT is likely to get grouped with LSAT grades in the 161-165 range (+/- 1-2). 

Lastly, you're 100% correct that "an increase of a few points could literally make the difference between admission to several schools or not". However, an increase by a couple, or even a few, points from 155 to 160 is much more impactfully than 163 to 167. Additionally, if you look at the composition of the LSAT and it's corresponding grading distributions, a jump from 163 to 167 typically means getting an additional 6-7 answers correct which isn't a cake walk, particularly at the higher end of the grading distribution.

-----

Back to Lawlawland's original question/post, just do your research and make the best decision for yourself. Be cognizant of the pros and cons involved with something like an LSAT re-write, and ignore black and white advice, or advice that comes in absolutes without any sort of nuance. Take all advice with a grain of salt, including mine 🙂

Good luck!

[CleanHands]

5 minutes ago, GBear1 said:

-Snip-

So, buried in your excessively long and boring (like the one that preceded it) post:

• You acknowledge that an increase of a few LSAT points could indeed make the difference between admission or rejection to multiple schools.
• You acknowledge that "a re-write or two isn't a big deal" (and then add some unique circumstances where it could potentially matter in edge cases, which would be captured by my use of the words "close to").

You also don't defend your statement that a 163 is "more than competitive for every Canadian law school" (which is what I took issue with) because you can't, because there are clear statistics cutting against that assertion.

And yet despite agreeing with the substance of what I wrote and retreating from your hyperbole that I challenged, you characterize my advice as not just "worse" than yours, but even "dishonest," somehow? Whatever, man.

@Lawlawland - Retake the LSAT. It's by far the cheapest, quickest, easiest and most impactful way to improve your candidate profile. This is not complicated.

[GBear1]

9 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

So, buried in your excessively long and boring (like the one that preceded it) post:

• You acknowledge that an increase of a few LSAT points could indeed make the difference between admission or rejection to multiple schools.
• You acknowledge that "a re-write or two isn't a big deal" (and then add some unique circumstances where it could potentially matter in edge cases, which would be captured by my use of the words "close to").

You also don't defend your statement that a 163 is "more than competitive for every Canadian law school" (which is what I took issue with) because you can't, because there are clear statistics cutting against that assertion.

And yet despite agreeing with the substance of what I wrote and retreating from your hyperbole that I challenged, you characterize my advice as not just "worse" than yours, but even "dishonest," somehow? Whatever, man.

@Lawlawland - Retake the LSAT. It's by far the cheapest, quickest, easiest and most impactful way to improve your candidate profile. This is not complicated.

Excessively long and boring hey? I thought you've been through law school, a little anonymous post enough to get personal opinions and feelings flowing? Wouldn't have expected a self-declared articling student to get emotionally wrapped up with an anonymous forum post, particularly one that was literally pre-empted by the words "don't take any of this as gospel"  🙂

Let me shorten 4 u:

-LSAT increase can make a difference, albeit harder and not as big a difference at the percentile that a 163 would correspond to.

-A re-write or two isn't a big deal; do you know how many times this person has written?

-There are clear statistics released by schools, many are even google-able:

Based on the 1st year class profiles publicly released by Canadian law schools, 163 sits at, if not above, the median LSAT score of accepted students. 163 also sits between the 25th and 75th percentiles of LSAT grades of accepted law students in Canada (this data is also available publicly) which sounds a lot like a solid measurement for a "competitive" range. 

😄 

[BlockedQuebecois]

"LOL you're a [law student/articling student/lawyer] why would you get riled up by my stupid anonymous post" seems to be the new "I wouldn't want your advice anyways because you're a loser who has been posting on LS.ca for 4 years", and somehow it's even more annoying than the original. 

[GGrievous]

10 minutes ago, GBear1 said:

Excessively long and boring hey? I thought you've been through law school, a little anonymous post enough to get personal opinions and feelings flowing? Wouldn't have expected a self-declared articling student to get emotionally wrapped up with an anonymous forum post, particularly one that was literally pre-empted by the words "don't take any of this as gospel"  🙂

Let me shorten 4 u:

-LSAT increase can make a difference, albeit harder and not as big a difference at the percentile that a 163 would correspond to.

-A re-write or two isn't a big deal; do you know how many times this person has written?

-There are clear statistics released by schools, many are even google-able:

Based on the 1st year class profiles publicly released by Canadian law schools, 163 sits at, if not above, the median LSAT score of accepted students. 163 also sits between the 25th and 75th percentiles of LSAT grades of accepted law students in Canada (this data is also available publicly) which sounds a lot like a solid measurement for a "competitive" range. 

😄 

This was really painful to read

[LMP]

1 hour ago, GBear1 said:

Excessively long and boring hey? I thought you've been through law school, a little anonymous post enough to get personal opinions and feelings flowing? Wouldn't have expected a self-declared articling student to get emotionally wrapped up with an anonymous forum post, particularly one that was literally pre-empted by the words "don't take any of this as gospel"  🙂

Let me shorten 4 u:

-LSAT increase can make a difference, albeit harder and not as big a difference at the percentile that a 163 would correspond to.

-A re-write or two isn't a big deal; do you know how many times this person has written?

-There are clear statistics released by schools, many are even google-able:

Based on the 1st year class profiles publicly released by Canadian law schools, 163 sits at, if not above, the median LSAT score of accepted students. 163 also sits between the 25th and 75th percentiles of LSAT grades of accepted law students in Canada (this data is also available publicly) which sounds a lot like a solid measurement for a "competitive" range. 

 

Please provide any evidence you have that retaking the LSAT can harm your chances. 

As of right now every school takes tour highest LSAT and no school has stated they penalize multiple takes. 

You are providing bad advice and have been unable to refute the reasonable points made by actual lawyers and articling students. 

I probably should have stopped taking you seriously when you spelled it "wholistic". A term, I should mention, you seem to not understand. 

OP, go ahead and retake, it won't hurt you at all. Also, note this was an unusually comepetive year. If you apply next cycle when things calm down a bit I think you'll have a good shot at both schools you were waitlisted at. 

[Garfield]

It's your PS.

[undertheletter]

Assuming you’ve graduated already, you can’t change your GPA (or, if you have one year left, you can’t change it by that much). This leaves your PS and LSAT. If I was in your shoes I would immediately begin studying for an LSAT re-write. A 163 is good, but I think your GPA isn’t high enough for you to justify not re-writing. Bumping it up a few points to a 165+ score should give you a much better chance in the next cycle (this could be as simple as perfecting your games section etc.).

Also, I agree with other posters that you might consider amending your PS. However, I think an LSAT improvement will have a much greater impact on your application.

[luckycharm]

You are still waitlisted at queens and western?

It is not over yet.

However, even a couple more points on LSAT will help. 

[Yogurt Baron]

3 hours ago, LMP said:

I probably should have stopped taking you seriously when you spelled it "wholistic". 

I was going to be a dick about this myself, and am hardly ever above a spelling flame, but then this person said that English is their second language, and I chose to pull that particular punch.

That said: I've been pfaffing around this corner of the internet since it was a BBS you accessed on a 14.4 baud modem, and the hill that GBear is choosing to die on is one of the strangest arguments I've ever seen. A 163 is not competitive everywhere, especially this past cycle; even at schools where a 163 is competitive, higher is always better, especially when it's offsetting a 3.36; if there's any downside to retaking, it's by far outweighed by the benefit of getting a higher score. A bunch of really credible people have explained all of this at some length, and I would listen to those ones.

OP, you're going to be fine. Even if you don't raise your LSAT score, I suspect you'll get in somewhere next year.

[Psychometronic]

+1 Retake the LSAT. If you get in this cycle, great! If you get a higher score, use it next cycle. If you get a lower score, basically all schools take your highest score anyways. 

[Whist]

Smarmy, passive-aggressive smiley and kissy emojis are torture. Someone end my suffering.

OP, if you stand an even moderate chance of improving, retake the LSAT. The only schools that average scores are UofA and McGill. 

[Electricity]

10 hours ago, GBear1 said:

Firstly, some schools average LSAT grades (see the University of Alberta).

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe uAlberta announced earlier this cycle that they're no longer doing this. I think McGill may be the only school still averaging LSAT scores.

Rewrite the LSAT and take a hard look at your personal statement. Consider asking the schools you applied to for feedback on your PS too. 

[Thrive92]

3 hours ago, Electricity said:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe uAlberta announced earlier this cycle that they're no longer doing this.

You are correct; but it is not 100% certain they may continue this for the upcoming cycles. That policy was only for the 2021 cycle.

[Lawlawland]

20 hours ago, CleanHands said:

@Lawlawland - Retake the LSAT. It's by far the cheapest, quickest, easiest and most impactful way to improve your candidate profile. This is not complicated.

12 hours ago, Psychometronic said:

+1 Retake the LSAT. If you get in this cycle, great! If you get a higher score, use it next cycle. If you get a lower score, basically all schools take your highest score anyways. 

 

First of all, thank you everyone for all the advice (I did not think I would get this much feedback which I'm grateful for). I see the general consensus is that I should just retake the lsat, so I wanted to add a bit more information in which I should have done in my original post. 163 was my first take in august, and I had already scheduled a second test for October before even taking the august one. I must have not been as nervous to do well given my first score and my more calm demeanor may have affected my score for the October retake, because I scored a 158. 

I know they take your highest, but I was also told they look at everything. Do you think that if I scored lower than a 163, the downward trend would impact my chances? That is my only hesitancy to re-writing the lsat. 

On 7/26/2021 at 2:21 PM, samii said:

Your stats are solid - on par with the average profile for most of these schools. It also looks like nothing particularly stands out (average cGPA/L2/LSAT). One option is to push one of those above average…but I have a feeling that you weren’t admitted because perhaps your PS wasn’t particularly strong or notable. 

I’d recommend seriously focusing on your PS and having a variety of people look over it. Make it personal and make it stand out. Remember, they’re reading hundreds - if not thousands - of statements. Does what you have now seem like something that would catch someone’s eye? 

With those stats, you shouldn’t necessarily have a problem getting into places like UOttawa, Queen’s, Western, given a thoughtful PS. For next cycle, try applying to Windsor, Dal, UofC/UofA as well. You’ll surely get into one or more of them. 

In terms of PS, you are right and will definitely work towards improving the delivery. However, I think my life experiences itself proves for a notable PS so I am not sure how much to change that. I was born in Lebanon and had to flee due to political turmoil, we lived in Benin, Africa for 6 years, lived in Detroit for 4, left when they refused our refugee claim, came to Canada as refugees, they denied us twice, we applied again and were granted PR, and finally became an official citizen in 2019. I have 6 siblings, and Im the first to attend university (4th born). On top of other life events that are too personal to share, I think theres enough factors to make my PS stand out so maybe the problem was with its delivery. 

I think I probably need the most improvement for ECs because, yes I have several nice positions on my sketch, but I don't think it would stand against every other law applicant who probably has gone above and beyond with their ECs. That being said, I have already secured 2 volunteer positions that I could add on to my PS, and looking to add more. So hopefully that helps for next year. 

Once again, thanks again for your feedback. I feel a little lighter about having to re-apply this year. 

[Psychometronic]

7 hours ago, Lawlawland said:

I know they take your highest, but I was also told they look at everything. Do you think that if I scored lower than a 163, the downward trend would impact my chances? That is my only hesitancy to re-writing the lsat. 

I was never in admissions so someone else can confirm, but I don't think schools will disregard a competitive score simply because you have multiple writes with subsequent writes resulting in a lower score. I suspect "holistic" schools say this if there's a sliver of difference between fringe candidates but highest score still rules as far as I'm aware. 

[123]

23 hours ago, Liavas said:

Smarmy, passive-aggressive smiley and kissy emojis are torture.

😘😚🤣🙂

[PlayALawyerOnTV]

11 hours ago, Lawlawland said:

 

-snip-

I think I probably need the most improvement for ECs because, yes I have several nice positions on my sketch, but I don't think it would stand against every other law applicant who probably has gone above and beyond with their ECs. That being said, I have already secured 2 volunteer positions that I could add on to my PS, and looking to add more. So hopefully that helps for next year. 

-snip-

Don't worry too much about ECs. Their importance is pretty overrated by most applicants. 

From the sounds of it you do have the makings of compelling PS. Working on improving its delivery will most likely be beneficial. 

That and rewriting the LSAT if you feel confident you can improve your score.