Chance

[Mars12]

I have a 2.93 CGPA (with a multitude of documentation and explanation as to low grades)

I just received my first mark of 151 (42nd percentile), I am taking a second test in october

Very good letters of rec, amazing EC's

Applied to windsor, TMU, uoft, and osgoode. 

[CleanHands]

I'm sorry; you need a reality check if you're applying to UofT and Oz with those stats.

Softs and access claims only go so far.

[Mars12]

8 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

I'm sorry; you need a reality check if you're applying to UofT and Oz with those stats.

Softs and access claims only go so far.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Do you have any opinions about windsor or tmu? 

Also curious where you chose to go!

[CleanHands]

18 minutes ago, Nick12 said:

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Do you have any opinions about windsor or tmu? 

I'm out of the loop on admissions as it's been a few years. Based on recent accepted threads for those schools I'd say "not impossible," but more recent applicants will be able to give you a better answer.

19 minutes ago, Nick12 said:

Also curious where you chose to go!

I am a UBC alum, so I'm afraid I can't offer any input about the schools you're applying to, either.

[Mars12]

What were the stats you applied to uoft and osgoode with? 

 

thanks 

[Lilibet]

I doubt u’ll get in anywhere with those stats. Try improving ur lsat and maybe take some courses to improve ur gpa. 
also, u can always go abroad and come back. 

[WiseGhost]

@Lilibet Usually, encouraging someone who doesn't have the stats for Canadian law schools to study abroad is bad advice. 

[LMP]

I think it is possible for you to get accepted with your stats. It isn't very likely, but it is certainly possible (more so at TMU and Windsor). Look, if you aren't going to re-do the LSAT this comes down to your soft factors being impressive or interesting enough to overcome your low scores.

[Naj]

21 minutes ago, LMP said:

I think it is possible for you to get accepted with your stats. It isn't very likely, but it is certainly possible

Hate to say it, but I think it's a lot closer to impossible than possible. They should definitely re-do the LSAT aiming for at least the mid-150s to have something resembling a realistic shot.  

[Lilibet]

21 hours ago, WiseGhost said:

@Lilibet Usually, encouraging someone who doesn't have the stats for Canadian law schools to study abroad is bad advice. 

How is that bad advice? Many people take this route and are successful! At the end its the OP’s choice what she wants to do, they should know all options available to them

[Spinnaker]

Best of luck with your next LSAT attempt! Don't be discouraged, it is definitely possible to make significant progress in the LSAT! I highly recommend the online 7Sage self-paced curriculum (it's a monthly subscription that costs about $70), even though I was working more than full time hours I was able to make significant improvement on the exam only studying an average of an hour or so each day.

Logic Games was my big struggle, and between the PowerScore Logic Games paper book and 7Sage practice tests and explanations I became an almost-pro after 4 months of studying!

[soundofconfusion]

8 minutes ago, Lilibet said:

How is that bad advice? Many people take this route and are successful!

And many, many more do the same and are very much not, especially if they don't come from wealth/legal families.

8 minutes ago, Lilibet said:

At the end its the OP’s choice what she wants to do, they should know all options available to them

"feel free to show up to your trial in a stained T-shirt that says 'I love shoplifting' on it! At the end of the day, it's your choice and you should know all the options available to you!"

[Mars12]

18 minutes ago, Natey said:

Best of luck with your next LSAT attempt! Don't be discouraged, it is definitely possible to make significant progress in the LSAT! I highly recommend the online 7Sage self-paced curriculum (it's a monthly subscription that costs about $70), even though I was working more than full time hours I was able to make significant improvement on the exam only studying an average of an hour or so each day.

Logic Games was my big struggle, and between the PowerScore Logic Games paper book and 7Sage practice tests and explanations I became an almost-pro after 4 months of studying!

Thanks so much for the advice. I'll for sure check out 7Sage 🙂

[Naj]

1 hour ago, Lilibet said:

How is that bad advice?

For your, and OP's, convenience: 

 

 

[Yogurt Baron]

Yeah, one of the many hats I wear at my job is helping international law grads navigate the NCA process.

I mean, literally, yes, "u can always go abroad and come back." That is true. But if you're the kind of Canadian who has to ask an internet forum for advice, u cannot always go abroad and come back and practice law. It's remarkably difficult for a Canadian who's gone abroad because they have bad stats, and doesn't have significant legal connections, to get licensed to practice law in Canada and then to find a job. And "u can always..." is qualitatively different advice from "this route is theoretically possible, but exceptionally difficult". It's true that some people play in the NBA. It's bad advice to tell someone who just got cut from their college basketball team and has told you they're five-two and horribly coordinated, "You can always play in the NBA!"

Edited September 29, 2023 by Yogurt Baron

[CleanHands]

40 minutes ago, Yogurt Baron said:

And "u can always..." is qualitatively different advice from "this route is theoretically possible, but exceptionally difficult". It's true that some people play in the NBA. It's bad advice to tell someone who just got cut from their college basketball team and has told you they're five-two and horribly coordinated, "You can always play in the NBA!"

There are a lot of legal equivalents to 5'2 horribly coordinated basketball players actively practicing law in Canada.

At this point I've dealt with enough subhuman-level dumbshit "lawyers" with University of London degrees to concede (contrary to what this forum tends to suggest) that literally anyone in Canada can get a degree there and end up a practicing lawyer if they really want. I absolutely hate this, but not because it's necessarily a bad idea for the applicant/lawyer, but rather because it's bad for literally everyone else but them.

[Yogurt Baron]

18 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

There are a lot of legal equivalents to 5'2 horribly coordinated basketball players actively practicing law in Canada.

At this point I've dealt with enough subhuman-level dumbshit "lawyers" with University of London degrees to concede (contrary to what this forum tends to suggest) that literally anyone in Canada can get a degree there and end up a practicing lawyer if they really want. I absolutely hate this, but not because it's necessarily a bad idea for the applicant/lawyer, but rather because it's bad for literally everyone else but them.

I don't disagree, actually, with most of this - and I particularly cosign the last clause. My question is, how sure are you that the people from the University of London you're dealing with aren't somebody's idiot nephew who got a job via their asshole uncle pulling some strings?

I will say, from my limited experience as support staff, that there are far more NCA grads practicing in Canada than I would have expected when my only knowledge was from this forum. I think the "nobody at all can pass the NCA exams and get a job" culture on, particularly, the old board, was misleading, in that lots of people do go overseas and come back with a degree and end up practicing (sometimes very poorly). But from what I've seen - and, again, happily conceding I haven't seen that much - most of those people are nepotism hires. That's why I prefer to frame it as "if you're having to ask the internet about this, you probably can't pass the NCA exams and get a job".

[Psychometronic]

I met NCA lawyers who immigrated to Canada after having practiced in their home country. They also struggled to find articles and some worked as admin assistants before obtaining articles. Sometimes their own firm takes them on, sometimes they have to hunt elsewhere. Lots of stories of how people struggled to get articles. I can only imagine leaving Canada for a foreign law degree and coming back fresh from graduation without prior experience. Unless you are willing and open to hustling in non-lawyer jobs for some time and networking aggressively, you're better off avoiding this route.  

Undergrad admissions seem to be peddling this option as non-problematic alternatives to a law degree in Canada to the point where I've heard Canadian law students lament not going abroad for law school. It's really misleading and harmful advice. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Psychometronic

[Lilibet]

Just wanted to point out that this option totally works too. Lots of folks study in the UK, come back, pass their exams, and practice law just fine. I can vouch for it because I work with two awesome lawyers who did their schooling there. Honestly, I don't see them as any less capable than me, even though I went to a Canadian law school. Sure, it is tougher for UK grads to get licensed and find jobs and it might take them 2-3 years to get licensed. But, it's doable, and the OP should know this is a choice! At the end of the day, it's entirely up to them to decide what path to take. We can't possibly know their entire life situation or connections just from a forum post asking for advice!

[thrill]

2 hours ago, Lilibet said:

Just wanted to point out that this option totally works too. Lots of folks study in the UK, come back, pass their exams, and practice law just fine. I can vouch for it because I work with two awesome lawyers who did their schooling there. Honestly, I don't see them as any less capable than me, even though I went to a Canadian law school. Sure, it is tougher for UK grads to get licensed and find jobs and it might take them 2-3 years to get licensed. But, it's doable, and the OP should know this is a choice! At the end of the day, it's entirely up to them to decide what path to take. We can't possibly know their entire life situation or connections just from a forum post asking for advice!

It's not that people who study in the UK with the intent of practicing in Canada are doomed to be horrible lawyers or anything, it's just not a good recommendation. Unless OP has a serious compelling reason to go there for a few years and then come back, I don't know why they would. Much better off putting that time, energy and money into getting a higher LSAT mark. Saying "you can always just go to the UK" implies that it is also a decent option and not a much harder option that is a bad idea for most people (obviously if you can get nepotism-hired this does not matter).

[Gueniv]

Jeremy Diamond of Diamond & Diamond went to Cooley in the US. So did Michael Cohen, former Trump lawyer & sycophant. Rated one of the worst schools in the US. 85% acceptance rate and students have claimed in class actions they were duped about employment prospects,

Yet, Diamond is loaded and more successful than at least 90% of the lawyers in ON (because he is apparently a good business man) including the chumps in suits downtown wasting their lives slaving for billable hours and impressing only their office mates who are also overdressed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Michigan_University_Cooley_Law_School#Ranking_and_reputation

https://macleans.ca/education/uniandcollege/bay-street-lawyer-blues/

19 hours ago, thrill said:

It's not that people who study in the UK with the intent of practicing in Canada are doomed to be horrible lawyers or anything, it's just not a good recommendation. Unless OP has a serious compelling reason to go there for a few years and then come back, I don't know why they would. Much better off putting that time, energy and money into getting a higher LSAT mark. Saying "you can always just go to the UK" implies that it is also a decent option and not a much harder option that is a bad idea for most people (obviously if you can get nepotism-hired this does not matter).

If the only reason you cannot get into a CDN school is the LSAT then either you are not smart enough or don't have the work ethic necessary to do well. Over a year, finish the Powerscore books. Do every LSAT exam released, timed. I mean you have to get at least a 160 by that point. And isn't that easier and cheaper than going to Australia? Unless you're just thinking about the beaches and sun of course. If that's the case...

[Gueniv]

Since you apparently have "life sucks and we all eventually die" reasons for the low GPA then focus on destroying the LSAT. Did you work at it? Demonstrate you are a hard worker and you are intelligent with a high LSAT score. That's its purpose.

If you can't hack the LSAT then just go to the UK or Aus. I mean the LSAT is 10x more difficult than most areas of law anyway. But you'll likely have to pull yourself up by the boots when you get back. Do an LLM in Common Law at Osgoode. The law schools don't mind those returning spending more money for the LLM. But big deal, the majority of the population toils for scraps their whole lives. First world problem.

Finally I think a UK school has a bit more cachet than an Aus school. Maybe not for us who graduated here but in the eyes of a client, I assume. If I did not know what I do know I would automatically assume that a UK education was decent. It isn't because you are not learning CDN law and also it is harder to get into a CDN school of course. But it is England and English lawyers go to these schools.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Gueniv

[Yogurt Baron]

1 hour ago, Gueniv said:

Jeremy Diamond of Diamond & Diamond went to Cooley in the US.

Yet, Diamond is loaded and more successful than at least 90% of the lawyers in ON (because he is apparently a good business man) including the chumps in suits downtown wasting their lives slaving for billable hours and impressing only their office mates who are also overdressed.

 

Worth noting that Diamond's a nepo baby.

Also, nothing's tougher than him, and if you're getting a 151 on the LSAT, something is probably tougher than you. So those are the two things Jeremy Diamond has going for him that the OP might not have. The uncle with a law firm and the nothing being tougher than him.

[CleanHands]

LOLing at Jeremy Diamond being the named example of an NCA success story. For so many reasons.

4 hours ago, Gueniv said:

I mean the LSAT is 10x more difficult than most areas of law anyway.

For idiots who don't know how incompetent they are at law due to the Dunning-Kruger effect, but have an objective score presented to them proving they are terrible at the LSAT.

[danny]

The vast majority of law involves simple concepts but long hours. Try programming software versus writing an employment law memo repeating the law you have applied many times to different facts. If you find the latter difficult rather than tiresome that's on you. 

As for Diamond, of course he's no legal icon but he's doing better than you, that's guaranteed.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianrashid/2017/02/10/lawyer-uses-attention-for-national-expansion/?sh=2730df7d698d