Any applicants that attended US Undergrad? Problems with harsher grade/percentage conversion

[waynegretzky9999]

So i will admit my GPA is somewhat subpar, cGPA of around 3.45. But do Canadian law school know the general difference in percentage - letter grading between US and Canada? There schools in Canada go by percentages that have A- at 80%, A at 85% or thereabouts? An A at my US undergraduate school required a 93% while a B would be require a 83%. No class Ia attended ever assigned me an A if I were to have achieved an 85% in my total coursework. This was the same in high school. So even though I might have gotten an 86% in a class, I am assigned a B which is then translated by many Canadian schools to be in the 70% range. 

I contacted my undergraduate school and they were unwilling to provide a % to letter grade table and the Canadian schools that I've contacted are unwilling to look at syllabi that provide a more accurate % to letter grade conversion.

Anyone else have a similar problem? 

Thanks

[Diplock]

I would advise you against making that argument to anyone who actually knows how grades work. Because bottom line, you aren't complaining about the fact that Canadian schools don't know how U.S. grades work. You really don't think they understand the job even at that basic level? You're trying to convince them to buy into an argument premised on ignorance about how U.S. grades work.

U.S. grade percentage inflation increased to the point that they've had to move up the correlations between letter and percentage grades. That's all. You really think a 93% in the U.S. is equal to a 93% in Canada? In most of my liberal arts classes literally no one had a grade of 93% or higher. So you want to base your argument on the idea that there is no Canadian undergrad in my entire class that would deserve an "A" in your U.S. school? That's absurd and you know that it is. Or at least, you would know that if you weren't trying to fool yourself into believing you got screwed, somehow.

If you are looking the letter grade distribution of your U.S. classes and you can somehow establish that a vanishingly small percentage of the class ever got an "A" then you might have an argument that relative to a Canadian class, where maybe around a quarter of the class might expect a grade in the A-range, that there is some genuine disparity. Maybe there is - I don't have enough information to tell. But I do know the information you're trying to rely on is bunk.

If a reasonable percentage of your class did get A-range grades - and never mind what kind of pre-letter score was required to hit that mark - then you probably should just accept that your B-range grade means "not a bad student but not comparable to the best performing section of students in this class." Which is actually what a "B" means everywhere. Trying to convince anyone differently - and we're talking about admissions staff who evaluate these things for a living - won't convince them that you're smarter than your grades suggest. It'll do quite the opposite.

[WiseGhost]

I went to a Canadian school where a B is a 70-74%. The average grade for classes was also B. 

While I agree with Gretzky that you miss 100% of the shots you don't take, this shot is going to miss the net. 

[waynegretzky9999]

5 hours ago, Diplock said:

I would advise you against making that argument to anyone who actually knows how grades work. Because bottom line, you aren't complaining about the fact that Canadian schools don't know how U.S. grades work. You really don't think they understand the job even at that basic level? You're trying to convince them to buy into an argument premised on ignorance about how U.S. grades work.

U.S. grade percentage inflation increased to the point that they've had to move up the correlations between letter and percentage grades. That's all. You really think a 93% in the U.S. is equal to a 93% in Canada? In most of my liberal arts classes literally no one had a grade of 93% or higher. So you want to base your argument on the idea that there is no Canadian undergrad in my entire class that would deserve an "A" in your U.S. school? That's absurd and you know that it is. Or at least, you would know that if you weren't trying to fool yourself into believing you got screwed, somehow.

If you are looking the letter grade distribution of your U.S. classes and you can somehow establish that a vanishingly small percentage of the class ever got an "A" then you might have an argument that relative to a Canadian class, where maybe around a quarter of the class might expect a grade in the A-range, that there is some genuine disparity. Maybe there is - I don't have enough information to tell. But I do know the information you're trying to rely on is bunk.

If a reasonable percentage of your class did get A-range grades - and never mind what kind of pre-letter score was required to hit that mark - then you probably should just accept that your B-range grade means "not a bad student but not comparable to the best performing section of students in this class." Which is actually what a "B" means everywhere. Trying to convince anyone differently - and we're talking about admissions staff who evaluate these things for a living - won't convince them that you're smarter than your grades suggest. It'll do quite the opposite.

Can you expand on your point on grade inflation in the US? Because it seems like it exists here in Canada too (study shown below)? 32% in a class receiving As is certainly nothing that I experienced in the US and a lot higher than the quarter mark you mentioned.

Have you also taken into account that 35% of US high school students take AP which are college level courses better preparing them to succeed in college? Most Canadian public schools do not offer college-level courses which could be the reason why average %s are lower. This is clear in Ontario where universities have established higher cut offs for applicants from public Ontario schools due to grade inflation and underperformance once in college. 

U of Waterloo Study:

From 1988/89 to 2006/07 it was determined that there had been an 11.02% increase in undergraduate A grades, with the rate of increase being 0.656% per year.[45] In 100 level Math for the year 2006/07, the grade distribution of 11,042 assigned grades was: 31.9% A, 22.0% B, 18%C, 16.3% D, 11.8% F. In 400 level Fine Arts courses for 2006/07, the distribution of 50 assigned grades was: 100% A.[45] In relation to increased scores in first-year mathematics, there was no evidence of better preparedness of UW students. A possible source of grade inflation may have been pressure from administrators to raise grades. A case was documented in which a math dean adjusted grades without the consent or authorization of the instructor

Are you making the argument that course material on average is harder in Canada than in the US, hence the looser % to letter grade conversions? No one might have had 93% higher in your liberal arts classes but why does that matter if 85% can get you an A? or 80% an A-? I'm not making the argument that nobody in Canada would get an A in the US, I'm sure there are plenty. However, if the level of course material is on a similar level, would you rather be able to get an A by getting 93% or by getting 85%?

3 hours ago, WiseGhost said:

I went to a Canadian school where a B is a 70-74%. The average grade for classes was also B. 

While I agree with Gretzky that you miss 100% of the shots you don't take, this shot is going to miss the net. 

Yes, but again I refer to the comment I left above as well. Most Canadian applicants did not take university level courses in high school, whilst 35% of Americans take AP. Those high school students in Canada that have taken IB or AP are more prepared to succeed once in college. However, the majority have not, hence the lower averages. Universities are aware of this problem especially in provinces like Ontario. 
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-university-admission-rising-grades-1.6875357
Are you making the argument that the course material is harder in Canada than in the US? If you are not, and assume course material is at a similar level, would you rather be able to get a B by getting 70% or 85%? a 70% in total coursework would generally mean a C- in the US. 

[Diplock]

Let me put it this way. I'm not engaging with you on this. It's a waste of my keystrokes and brain cells. Admissions professionals in law schools see applications from all over the world. Whatever the variations in grading that may exist (and obviously those variations do exist) are things they are very well aware of. If they see a transcript from Zimbabwe maybe they are going to need to do some digging to figure out how to assess it. But a U.S. school? That's dirt common to them.

If you want to try to argue that the professionals evaluating your application for admission don't know how to do the job they do full-time, and you believe you're well positioned to better educate them on the relative differences in grading, you go right ahead. What I'm trying to say is that your effort there will end exactly the same way it did here.

Oh, and trying to argue that the relative grading that results in a percentage grade or a letter grade is somehow based in an objective, concrete reality that speaks to the difficulty of the material in any way is just an idiotic argument that shows you've barely devoted three minutes of good thought to the subject. Of course these are all arbitrary, completely invented ways of signifying the standard of your success relative to your peer group. How could they ever be anything else? I'm not saying that to continue the argument. I'm saying that simply to point out that you aren't going to win, and you should move on.

[waynegretzky9999]

I'm not sure what I've done to upset you. I'm genuinely curious in this matter and I never assumed things that you stated such as thinking no Canadian university student would be able to achieve an A in the US. I have my own hypothesis as to why the averages in Canada are lower and I'm curious as to why you think that is. 

[Lawstudents20202020]

@waynegretzky9999 the arguments you bring up regarding grading also applies across each Canadian institution, or even within different faculties at the same institution. Every university, every faculty, hell even professor has a different way that they assign grades. Admissions know this, considered it and decided to proceed using GPAs regardless. Why, because they can't spend time going through thousands of applications and devising some kind of mathematical formula the adjuster for different grading policies 

As an anecdote, when I was in first year undergrad, I took my organic chemistry exam, I got a 55% on it and was awarded a C-. When I talked to the prof about it, their only response was don't worry about it, your still in the top 10% of the class with that mark. I finished that class and got a C, I was still in the top 10% of that class.  When I applied to law school, my grade for the class remained a C, it hurt my applications and I didn't get in to some schools in part because of that grade. At the time I thought it was so unfair that despite performing better than my peers in that class I had a bad mark on my transcripts. But it happened and there's not a damn thing I could do about it. I've since changed my opinion because if admissions are going to spend their limited resources on resolving unfairness in the admissions process, there's much bigger fish to fry than some universities have harsh grading curves.

That's just life sometimes.

[WiseGhost]

Diplock is being harsh, but he is not wrong. On a positive note, you have a 168 LSAT. While schools almost certainly won't accept your arguments, your GPA and LSAT will get you into various Canadian law schools. 

 

[Diplock]

14 minutes ago, waynegretzky9999 said:

I'm not sure what I've done to upset you. I'm genuinely curious in this matter and I never assumed things that you stated such as thinking no Canadian university student would be able to achieve an A in the US. I have my own hypothesis as to why the averages in Canada are lower and I'm curious as to why you think that is. 

It's simply that your hypothesis, boiled down to essentials, is that you believe you are surrounded by tougher competition. Which isn't quite the same thing as saying that other students who aren't going to your school are dumber than the students who are going to your school. Except it really is.

I've had this discussion before, and it doesn't end well or head through anywhere interesting while getting to not ending well.

[waynegretzky9999]

47 minutes ago, Diplock said:

It's simply that your hypothesis, boiled down to essentials, is that you believe you are surrounded by tougher competition. Which isn't quite the same thing as saying that other students who aren't going to your school are dumber than the students who are going to your school. Except it really is.

I've had this discussion before, and it doesn't end well or head through anywhere interesting while getting to not ending well.

I'm not sure why you're jumping to your conclusion to irritate yourself more... I never said dumber or implied that whatsoever, I said better prepared, which is a very clear difference and significant enough for universities to alter their undergraduate admission standards . You also initially said a 93% in America isn't the same as a 93% in Canada and yet criticized me for jumping to conclusions regarding difficulty of course material. Which I never did, I assumed a similar level of difficulty, the only thing I am mentioning is the %. Never did I even hint that course material in the US is harder than in Canada or that no Canadian students could succeed in a US school. On the other hand it seems like you are adamant that it is much more difficult in Canada with no evidence to back it up. If you think my assumption that difficulty in course material is similar between the countries is wrong, please expand, I am open and eager to be educated on areas where I am not familiar with. You also mentioned grade inflation in the US without any evidence yet refused to engage in my response regarding grade inflation in Canada. Please do not assume the worst in people. I grew up in Canada and I have the utmost respect for all Canadian students, please stop putting words in my mouth regarding their intelligence or abilities. 

1 hour ago, Lawstudents20202020 said:

@waynegretzky9999 the arguments you bring up regarding grading also applies across each Canadian institution, or even within different faculties at the same institution. Every university, every faculty, hell even professor has a different way that they assign grades. Admissions know this, considered it and decided to proceed using GPAs regardless. Why, because they can't spend time going through thousands of applications and devising some kind of mathematical formula the adjuster for different grading policies 

As an anecdote, when I was in first year undergrad, I took my organic chemistry exam, I got a 55% on it and was awarded a C-. When I talked to the prof about it, their only response was don't worry about it, your still in the top 10% of the class with that mark. I finished that class and got a C, I was still in the top 10% of that class.  When I applied to law school, my grade for the class remained a C, it hurt my applications and I didn't get in to some schools in part because of that grade. At the time I thought it was so unfair that despite performing better than my peers in that class I had a bad mark on my transcripts. But it happened and there's not a damn thing I could do about it. I've since changed my opinion because if admissions are going to spend their limited resources on resolving unfairness in the admissions process, there's much bigger fish to fry than some universities have harsh grading curves.

That's just life sometimes.

Fair enough. I am not trying to insult Canadian students' intelligence or abilities like Diplock is trying to so desperately trying to accuse me of doing. But your example kind of feeds into my hypothesis that many students that attend public high schools in Canada that don't teach a college level curriculum such as AP or IB struggle once they enter university and hence the lower averages. On the other hand 35% of US students take AP level courses in high school. If there is a significant difference in difficulty in course material between US undergraduate schools and Canadian undergraduate schools I would like to know, I am currently assuming a similar level and I think that is a fair assumption. Again, I mean no offense like others have implied, just trying to be educated. 

[waynegretzky9999]

1 hour ago, WiseGhost said:

Diplock is being harsh, but he is not wrong. On a positive note, you have a 168 LSAT. While schools almost certainly won't accept your arguments, your GPA and LSAT will get you into various Canadian law schools. 

 

Yes, I agree that I will probably not have much success arguing my case with admissions. My problem with Diplock is his insistence that I am belittling or insulting other people's intelligence. My hypothesis clearly stated I believed a large chunk of Canadian students that attended public high schools are not well prepared enough to succeed in university. Hence why some universities have raised admission standards for certain provinces such as Ontario because kids are going into university thinking they can achieve the same high averages they did in high school. Additionally, he's jumped to numerous conclusions that he has accused me of doing, without any sort of evidence to back it up. 

[Lawstudents20202020]

51 minutes ago, waynegretzky9999 said:

But your example kind of feeds into my hypothesis that many students that attend public high schools in Canada that don't teach a college level curriculum such as AP or IB struggle once they enter university and hence the lower averages.

It most certainly does not, my post doesn't contain anything that would allow you to imply causation. It an anecdote that you have missed the point on, it does not matter what underlying cause there is for different grade scales at different schools, not one law school in all of north America cares about that.

I would strongly disagree with you on your hypothesis and would say that you are guilty of the same thing you accuse @Diplock of.

 

 

[WiseGhost]

@waynegretzky9999  The article you've linked is about grade inflation in Ontario schools, not overall education quality. Grade inflation causes problems because universities are unable to assess whether a student's ability matches their grades, but this is a separate issue. There's no indication that a 'large chunk' of Canadian public school students are less prepared for university than American students. 

Your arguments about AP and IB classes miss the point. The idea that Canadian students have far lower percentage grades in university because they take fewer AP and IB classes than Americans is dubious.  What's more likely? That Canadian students are less capable than American students? Or that Canadian universities usually have a different grading scheme? 

 

 

[waynegretzky9999]

19 minutes ago, WiseGhost said:

@waynegretzky9999  The article you've linked is about grade inflation in Ontario schools, not overall education quality. Grade inflation causes problems because universities are unable to assess whether a student's ability matches their grades, but this is a separate issue. There's no indication that a 'large chunk' of Canadian public school students are less prepared for university than American students. 

Your arguments about AP and IB classes miss the point. The idea that Canadian students have far lower percentage grades in university because they take fewer AP and IB classes than Americans is dubious.  What's more likely? That Canadian students are less capable than American students? Or that Canadian universities usually have a different grading scheme? 

 

 

I'm sure Canadian kids are as capable as American kids. My point is that they are not being set up to succeed by their provincial curriculums. 

1 hour ago, Lawstudents20202020 said:

It most certainly does not, my post doesn't contain anything that would allow you to imply causation. It an anecdote that you have missed the point on, it does not matter what underlying cause there is for different grade scales at different schools, not one law school in all of north America cares about that.

I would strongly disagree with you on your hypothesis and would say that you are guilty of the same thing you accuse @Diplock of.

 

 

55% allowed you to be top 10% of your class. Yes, I agree that you got boned by still being assigned a C, however, if the majority of the class is performing around or below 55%, you don't think there is something fundamentally wrong with the Canadian education system? I truly believe the provincial curriculums are not preparing students to succeed in Canadian universities. 

[waynegretzky9999]

The point is that the Canadian schools use their own grading scale/system is fine, but they've also incorporated the 4.0/4.3 scale into it and are assuming other schools are also assigning 70% as Bs and 80% as As, which is not the case in most other places that use a 4.0/4.3 system. If you believe that the difficulty between US and Canadian undergraduate is comparable, does it justify a 10% difference in letter grading? And if there is evidence that Canadian universities are more difficult, rigorous and that is why averages is around 70% and lower than the US, please share this data with me. 

[LMP]

4 minutes ago, waynegretzky9999 said:

I'm sure Canadian kids are as capable as American kids. My point is that they are not being set up to succeed by their provincial curriculums. 

55% allowed you to be top 10% of your class. Yes, I agree that you got boned by still being assigned a C, however, if the majority of the class is performing around or below 55%, you don't think there is something fundamentally wrong with the Canadian education system? I truly believe the provincial curriculums are not preparing students to succeed in Canadian universities. 

But so what? Let's say it is all true, how is anything you're fighting about relevant to your question? Admission committees aren't going to share your view and aren't going to do anything close to your request (going through syllabi). Even if we all agreed that your American degree makes Canadian education look like a joke it isn't going to persuade anyone making admission decisions. 

[Diplock]

If you can't even embrace the realization that numbers themselves, as applied to academic performance, are a completely subjective concept then you don't have sufficient perspective to even talk about this meaningfully. There are programs in the world where even achieving 60% is incredibly difficult. That doesn't mean the people in these programs are bad at what they are doing. It means the grading system is using numbers differently. The fact that you refuse to accept and embrace this basic reality - and that you're trying to insist that 70% in one place must be directly comparable to 70% in another place such that the distinction needs to be justified - is just wildly off base.

In simplistic terms, you can ask 100 multiple choice questions in a way that is designed to create a curve to around 70% correct. You can also ask 100 multiple choice questions in a way that will yield more 90% correct. And that's before we even start with how those numbers are applied to an essay or more subjective work. Everyone knows this. I mean, everyone working at even a basic level in academia knows this.

Anyway, if you don't get that - and you obviously don't - we're nowhere. Which is exactly where I knew this would go when we started.

[Yogurt Baron]

All right, I'm an idiot and maybe I'm missing something.

If I get a B in Canada, that's a 70. If I get a B in America, that's an 80. These numbers are basically arbitrary and don't reflect that school is harder in one country than the other. It's not that Americans call an 80 a B; it's that they call a B an 80. So if you get a B in an American school (80), and you apply to Canadian law schools, and it's reflected as a B, that's fair, because it's a B. No?

[Diplock]

8 minutes ago, Yogurt Baron said:

All right, I'm an idiot and maybe I'm missing something.

If I get a B in Canada, that's a 70. If I get a B in America, that's an 80. These numbers are basically arbitrary and don't reflect that school is harder in one country than the other. It's not that Americans call an 80 a B; it's that they call a B an 80. So if you get a B in an American school (80), and you apply to Canadian law schools, and it's reflected as a B, that's fair, because it's a B. No?

You're not wrong, and you know you're not wrong. It really is that simple. If a B in one system equals 80% and a B in another system equals 70% - completely omitting the fact that both of these representations are totally arbitrary and pulled out of thin air - OP's basic argument is that someone should recognize the percentage grade is the "real" measure of performance quality, whereas the letter grade is not. And that's basically it.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Diplock

[Yogurt Baron]

1 minute ago, Diplock said:

you know you're not wrong. 

I honestly wasn't sure if I was missing some nuance.

I mean, the thing that I think a lot of people miss is that, especially in most arts classes, a grade of 80 does not mean that you got 80% of the stuff right. The letter grade is a subjective assessment of, "How good is this?", and then the number grade is designed to correspond to the letter grade, not the inverse. B work is B work whether you call it a 50, a 70, or a 100. I did a master's degree where if you hand in the paper, you get a 100 on the paper. It does not mean every single person in the class was doing A+ work. If someone does B work and their school calls it an 85, that doesn't mean it wasn't B work, any more than if I do D- work and my mom says it's 100% perfect.

OP, I'm sorry this isn't what you want to hear, but you're not facing a disadvantage here; you're just not gaining an unfair advantage.

[Ryn]

There's a reason why Canadian and American schools don't compare percentages from the different systems: they are not comparable. Letter grades translate just fine (or, within a margin that institutions in both systems deem acceptable), which is what any admissions committee will take into consideration.

The systems involving the percentages were developed independently from each other and, as others have pointed out, there is no correlation between the two. It's like trying to compare a 3.5 from someone in a 4.0 system versus the same score from someone in a 4.3 system. The comparison is meaningless because the 3.5 means two different things depending on the system. The same is the case for the percentage systems.

And I will also point out that not every school in Canada follows the 90 = A, 80 = A-, 70 = B system. And not every school in the US follows the 90 = A, 80 = B, 70 = C system, either.

The only things comparable between Canada and the US are letter grades.

[waynegretzky9999]

3 hours ago, Yogurt Baron said:

I honestly wasn't sure if I was missing some nuance.

I mean, the thing that I think a lot of people miss is that, especially in most arts classes, a grade of 80 does not mean that you got 80% of the stuff right. The letter grade is a subjective assessment of, "How good is this?", and then the number grade is designed to correspond to the letter grade, not the inverse. B work is B work whether you call it a 50, a 70, or a 100. I did a master's degree where if you hand in the paper, you get a 100 on the paper. It does not mean every single person in the class was doing A+ work. If someone does B work and their school calls it an 85, that doesn't mean it wasn't B work, any more than if I do D- work and my mom says it's 100% perfect.

OP, I'm sorry this isn't what you want to hear, but you're not facing a disadvantage here; you're just not gaining an unfair advantage.

Yes, I agree with you grading in most arts classes are subjective so in this case doesn't really matter. However, for courses like maths, science, etc with clear right or wrong answer exams, you don't see the disadvantage of having to reach a higher threshold for an A? 

3 hours ago, Ryn said:

There's a reason why Canadian and American schools don't compare percentages from the different systems: they are not comparable. Letter grades translate just fine (or, within a margin that institutions in both systems deem acceptable), which is what any admissions committee will take into consideration.

The systems involving the percentages were developed independently from each other and, as others have pointed out, there is no correlation between the two. It's like trying to compare a 3.5 from someone in a 4.0 system versus the same score from someone in a 4.3 system. The comparison is meaningless because the 3.5 means two different things depending on the system. The same is the case for the percentage systems.

And I will also point out that not every school in Canada follows the 90 = A, 80 = A-, 70 = B system. And not every school in the US follows the 90 = A, 80 = B, 70 = C system, either.

The only things comparable between Canada and the US are letter grades.

The percentages were developed independently, true. I believe the 70% as a benchmark in Canada came from the UK. However, the 4.0 system came from the US, and if schools like UBC or UT are going to use those, they shouldn't assume the % to letter grade conversion for those institutions are the same as here. 

3 hours ago, LMP said:

But so what? Let's say it is all true, how is anything you're fighting about relevant to your question? Admission committees aren't going to share your view and aren't going to do anything close to your request (going through syllabi). Even if we all agreed that your American degree makes Canadian education look like a joke it isn't going to persuade anyone making admission decisions. 

Yes, I've already stated that its fine that the admissions committee isn't going to go with my request. I was curious to know whether or not there was evidence to prove that a Canadian undergraduate experience was more difficult than the US as many on this thread have implied. 

[Hegdis]

OP, you’re spinning your wheels here. 

[waynegretzky9999]

1 minute ago, Hegdis said:

OP, you’re spinning your wheels here. 

Eh perhaps, but I already noted awhile ago in this thread I didn't plan on hoping the admissions committee would go through my request. It is just interesting to see how defensive people get in the Canadian based forums. Most people that I've talked that have been to school in both Canada and the US as well as in other forums like for med school have noted how much easier it is to accumulate higher cGPA in Canada than in the US. 

3 hours ago, Diplock said:

If you can't even embrace the realization that numbers themselves, as applied to academic performance, are a completely subjective concept then you don't have sufficient perspective to even talk about this meaningfully. There are programs in the world where even achieving 60% is incredibly difficult. That doesn't mean the people in these programs are bad at what they are doing. It means the grading system is using numbers differently. The fact that you refuse to accept and embrace this basic reality - and that you're trying to insist that 70% in one place must be directly comparable to 70% in another place such that the distinction needs to be justified - is just wildly off base.

In simplistic terms, you can ask 100 multiple choice questions in a way that is designed to create a curve to around 70% correct. You can also ask 100 multiple choice questions in a way that will yield more 90% correct. And that's before we even start with how those numbers are applied to an essay or more subjective work. Everyone knows this. I mean, everyone working at even a basic level in academia knows this.

Anyway, if you don't get that - and you obviously don't - we're nowhere. Which is exactly where I knew this would go when we started.

Ah yes. The 90% i got on my multiple choice test is because the prof made it that easy, and the 70% you got on yours in Canada is because the prof made it that hard. Way to keep assuming difficulty between the two despite scolding me for apparently doing the same. Please show me the evidence where profs in Canada are purposely making it so the class average is sub 70%. And where in the US are profs handing out free A-s? 

[Hegdis]

No, I meant now you're just picking fights. And this is a very old, worn-out fight. You've even thrown "med school" into the mix now.

You're not the first person to try this argument, and you're not the first person to draw it out long after it's apparent it gets you exactly nowhere except getting into more and more hypothetical and extreme circles with the few who have the energy to keep responding to you. If I were you I'd invest my energy elsewhere.