Saturated legal market?

[Here_come_da_judge]

Hi everyone, I’m a 1l student and I need some advice from those who are working in law. I am concerned based on hearing lately that the CAD legal market is saturated (and has been for quite some time) and the cost of tuition and the career prospects after graduation are tough, especially considering that some have told me the legal profession generally in Canada is underpaid. Can I get some second opinions on this from those who are experienced and work in law? Does the work really pay off and Would you recommend going through law school and articling if you had to do it again? 

Mod note: I renamed the title from "IMPORTANT" to what it is now.

[123]

13 minutes ago, Here_come_da_judge said:

especially considering that some have told me the legal profession generally in Canada is underpaid.

I think that depends on your expectations and standards for pay. What would you consider to be adequate pay?

[Here_come_da_judge]

Well it’s just that I’ve heard A LOT of those who graduate 3 years in are making $85k a year and those who are making 6 figures work more than a regular work week and broken down they are making $38 an hr….

I would say adequate pay would be higher than this, was not expecting this to apply so broadly. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Here_come_da_judge

[Debtful]

Most non big-law jobs/non-bay firms will pay less than that. The Ontario MAG was paying students $16-18 an hour.

 

 

[GoatDuck]

In law, you almost never work a “regular work week”. There are many high paying legal jobs, but it’s not a career where you go home at 5:00pm on Friday and not think about work until 9:00am on Monday. 

[Hayesy-B]

24 minutes ago, Here_come_da_judge said:

Well it’s just that I’ve heard A LOT of those who graduate 3 years in are making $85k a year and those who are making 6 figures work more than a regular work week and broken down they are making $38 an hr….

I would say adequate pay would be higher than this, was not expecting this to apply so broadly. 

I’m only one year in and don’t know anyone making that amount. I’m sure it happens for one reason or another, but I don’t think it’s nearly as common as you may believe based on what you’ve heard. 

[CleanHands]

11 minutes ago, Debtful said:

Most non big-law jobs/non-bay firms will pay less than that. The Ontario MAG was paying students $16-18 an hour.

He specified people 3 years in to being called.

[Aschenbach]

You can refer to this guide https://www.zsa.ca/salary-guide/.

Since you're asking for Canada generally I will chime in with the caveat that I practice in BC. I'm a first year call and I would say most of my colleagues are being paid in the low 100's, whether they work at a boutique or large firm.

Some smaller firms outside of downtown Vancouver will pay less, I think the lowest I have seen is between 80-90 k. I think government also pays around 90 k for a new call. If you end up doing criminal defence the pay may be less, but I have no experience in that area. I don't know anyone who is a three-year call making less than 100 k.

The work comes in cycles. I now practiced at a boutique but was at a large firm. I usually come in at 9 and leave between 6-7, with occasional weekend work and late nights if heading into a trial or hearing. At the large firm, I worked pretty much every weekend and left most days between 7-8 pm or later. 

I would say finding a job is never easy, regardless of profession. That being said, I found it easier to obtain employment in law than in my previous profession in business/finance.

[Psychometronic]

Ditto what Aschenbach said. Also, re: market saturation, it depends on where you want to work. I've seen job postings for associate positions in Kelowna up for weeks and these jobs pay 100k+. In Vancouver proper, my colleagues who weren't kept on after articling found a new position between 3-5 months. 

Re: tuition - schools in the west average $11-12K per year and it was ridiculously easy to get a professional line of credit from Scotia (with a low interest rate) for $135k when I applied in 2018. 

Law school is a fairly good investment, all things considered. 

[Lawstudents20202020]

It really depends on what your goals are and how well you perform in law school.

If you go into big law, hitting 6 figures is trivial, if you are a sole practitioner who exclusively does legal aid, it could be quite tricky.

It took me 2 years post call to hit 6 figures in a mid sized town in the interior of BC. If I was in Vancouver I'd have been there immediately post call.

I will say, if you go into this industry purely to make a big salary, it's going to chew you up and spit you out in record time. That's bit to say the money can't be part of the motivation, but there are way easier ways to earn a buck.

If your goal is to make over 100k in 3 years and you living in a major city, that shouldn't be overly difficult.

When I compare what I do now is what I could have done with my BSc, it's easily worth it to go to law school.

[Apple]

I'll add my two cents.

I work at a mid/large size firm in Ontario (not Toronto based market). When I began my first year as an associate I was given a $70k salary. By end of the year I was given a raise to $80k. This year, I made bonus so my total comp is well above 80k. I suspect they'll propose a raise to $90k by end of year for me (which if I ran the business I'd make it higher to retain the talent but ehhhh I don't run the business. You bet I'll be asking for more than $90k, because I can justify it easily. They don't wanna do it, I'll take my time elsewhere). For about 5 months I was just a work machine. Long hours, long days and longer weeks. The other months, I worked 9-7ish but still dedicated myself pretty hard while working. Now, I am pretty much coasting into the new year because I've excelled well past all the targets anyone has for me. 

At this same office, there are associates who are three/four year calls making $85k. No bonus pushing them higher than that. These associates wouldn't even think about putting in the hours I did, let alone actually do it. They'll complain about what they're making but the job is a job. Almost everything in law firms is based off of numbers. Bottom line though, they're making that because they just aren't producing the billings to justify going higher.

This experience is fairly typical in the region I work in. Firms here have a fairly modest minimum salary and then the bonus is what incentivizes folks. 

Law school to me was a worthwhile investment. That said, my view is also based on the fact I graduated debt free notwithstanding the fact that I paid for all my education (less some helpful meals from my family). 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Apple

[Here_come_da_judge]

Tanks for the feedback everyone! 

[Diplock]

I'll only say the same thing I've said every time this has come up. There is a legitimate conversation to be had about managing expectations in differing legal positions, acknowledging the risk that not everyone succeeds in their legal career just because they graduated from law school, talking about what a "reasonable" income is in a demanding profession, etc. But there's simply no way to have that conversation without establishing some basis for comparison.

So, if you want to talk about reasonable work hours, etc. let's compare this to any other other profession where you hope to be making six figures or close to it within a few years of graduation. If you want to talk about the risk of attending a graduate or professional program and not finding the work you want in that field, let's talk about other fields and careers. If you want to talk about what you hope and expect to earn in a legal career, what do you imagine people are earning in whatever other careers you might have considered instead?

My belief is, once you start comparing your concerns about law - which are legitimate, but lacking in perspective - with almost any alternative out there you quickly realize that what you're really fussing about is the lack of guarantees in life. And that's a thing, don't get me wrong. That's why you want to be sure you know what you're doing before you go into six figures of debt to pay for your education. But if you're going to do that at all, law is quite a reasonable bet to make.

[BHC1]

The first 2-3 years are rough. You will have little experience, no job security, likely a lot of debt, and not be compensated in a way that reflects how hard you are working. 

On the other hand, the hours, compensation, and overall risk-reward become more favourable the longer you practice.* If you enjoy the practice of law - I know I still do - this can hands down be one of the most financially and personally fulfilling careers you can partake in. While I’m sure there are other great careers out there (and you should explore them if they make sense for you), I absolutely would choose law if I had to do it all over again. 

*Some 20 year + calls have advised me there’s a point of diminishing return on experience - yet to get there yet personally. 

[WhoKnows]

2 hours ago, BHC1 said:

On the other hand, the hours, compensation, and overall risk-reward become more favourable the longer you practice.

This. I'm still in my 3rd year but have started to get some more information on what progression looks like, and the ramp up is rapid - especially if you can business develop. Even at the junior years, the salary can ramp up very quickly if you're in business law. With my expected raise next year, I'll have roughly doubled my base salary in 3.5 years, and will be comfortably in the upper 10% of income earners my age in Canada. I'm not sure you're getting that very many other places, and certainly not without some very hard work. 

Interest rates make it a tougher consideration, though. If rates were what they are now I'm not sure I would have gone to law school. The servicing on 100K isn't small, and things would be very, very tight at even a normal lawyers starting salary.

 

[Lawstudents20202020]

5 minutes ago, WhoKnows said:

Interest rates make it a tougher consideration, though. If rates were what they are now I'm not sure I would have gone to law school. The servicing on 100K isn't small

I still remember sitting in the bank while I was applying for my line of credit and the bank employee told me "don't worry, I've never seen interest rates go up" 

I did not end up getting a line of credit with that person.

[123]

8 minutes ago, WhoKnows said:

Interest rates make it a tougher consideration, though. If rates were what they are now I'm not sure I would have gone to law school. The servicing on 100K isn't small, and things would be very, very tight at even a normal lawyers starting salary.

I think they've extended the terms out, which helps bring the monthly payments down a little. But expensive in the long run.

[WhoKnows]

3 minutes ago, realpseudonym said:

I think they've extended the terms out, which helps bring the monthly payments down a little. But expensive in the long run.

Yea, very expensive in the long run. Just estimating but I think minimum payments would still be around $1,300 on $100k. Doable on a biglaw salary certainly, but still a big cost to cashflow month over month. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

1 hour ago, WhoKnows said:

Just estimating but I think minimum payments would still be around $1,300 on $100k.

They would actually be about half that – $705 over the maximum term at current interest rates. 

Still an appreciable amount of cash, of course. 

[WhoKnows]

1 hour ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

They would actually be about half that – $705 over the maximum term at current interest rates. 

Still an appreciable amount of cash, of course. 

This is why I should do back of napkin math at least, rather than in the head estimations. I didn't think the term extension would have that big of an impact. I was a bit over 100K and 10 year term at previous rates was 1280 a month. 

[Mal]

The legal market in Canada is absolutely not saturated. There is a large need for legal services in this country. It is difficult for the first few years, but once you get past that hurdle, it is fairly easy to make low six figures. Which is an exceptional salary compared to most people's alternatives. 

That being said, I wouldn't choose law for money. Law is great if you are hard-working and risk-averse to achieve an upper-middle-class life. Otherwise, it isn't anything particularly special. Then again, what is?

 

[SNAILS]

My opinion is that if you are making $85 000 per year, then you should be happy. I do not agree with the OP that "adequate pay would be higher than this."

Sure, some lawyers make more. As a lawyer, you have worked hard to get to where you are and you deserve more money per year than your average truckdriver or restaurant worker. The thing is, the average Canadian would be happy to make half that ($42 500/yr) for what they would consider to be a fairly cushy job that a lawyer has. Having graduated law school does not make you some kind of super hero that entitles you to live a wealthy lifestyle.

On the topic of a law student's student debt, that's one of the costs of doing business. Some law students I know act like they can spend money as though they already work on Bay Street (eating out multiples times per week, clothing and car expenses). If you have debt, you have to pay it back. If that means your disposable income is fairly low for your first few years of call, so be it. 

[Hayesy-B]

13 hours ago, SNAILS said:

My opinion is that if you are making $85 000 per year, then you should be happy. I do not agree with the OP that "adequate pay would be higher than this."

Sure, some lawyers make more. As a lawyer, you have worked hard to get to where you are and you deserve more money per year than your average truckdriver or restaurant worker. The thing is, the average Canadian would be happy to make half that ($42 500/yr) for what they would consider to be a fairly cushy job that a lawyer has. Having graduated law school does not make you some kind of super hero that entitles you to live a wealthy lifestyle.

On the topic of a law student's student debt, that's one of the costs of doing business. Some law students I know act like they can spend money as though they already work on Bay Street (eating out multiples times per week, clothing and car expenses). If you have debt, you have to pay it back. If that means your disposable income is fairly low for your first few years of call, so be it. 

There’s quite a lot here I’d disagree with, but the one point I will make is that you should make what you deserve. What one deserves is obviously based on a lot of factors, but saying “I make more than the average person, so this must be fine” or “a lot of people would be happy making less than me” is not really a good justification for being underpaid. 

[Lawllapalooza]

14 hours ago, SNAILS said:

My opinion is that if you are making $85 000 per year, then you should be happy. I do not agree with the OP that "adequate pay would be higher than this."

Sure, some lawyers make more. As a lawyer, you have worked hard to get to where you are and you deserve more money per year than your average truckdriver or restaurant worker. The thing is, the average Canadian would be happy to make half that ($42 500/yr) for what they would consider to be a fairly cushy job that a lawyer has. Having graduated law school does not make you some kind of super hero that entitles you to live a wealthy lifestyle.

I'm not sure where you live, but I'd like to move there if earning over $85k gross has one living a "wealthy lifestyle". I personally think nothing of the fact that I graduated law school. I do, however, think that anyone, lawyer or otherwise, should be reasonably compensated for the time and energy their job demands. Wanting a wage that helps you pay down loans you took out to be qualified for that job is not an unreasonable or greedy pursuit. I'd imagine very few lawyer jobs are 'the average Canadian would be happy to make $42.5k doing this' level cushy. Though I can appreciate that $85k is a lot of money to most people in the world and that its important to reflect on one's financial privilege, I'd be weary to take 'adequate wage' advice from those who (understandably) do not know your field. I love my job, but if market rate dropped to $42.5k tomorrow, there's a good chance I'm leaving for something less demanding.

[BHC1]

Although certain legal markets are more saturated, northern parts of this country have a significant and often unmet need for legal services. 

If $85k is too low for you and you can handle cold, isolation, and some culture shock, you can always go North:

Legal Counsel I - V (Litigation) $125.7k - $150.15k per year Full-time The Government of the Northwest Territories

Duty Counsel - Legal Aid Ontario - Kenora, ON - $83,343 – $142,422

Nunavut Legal Aid - 1st year call $80,000 + $25,000 living allowance

Edited October 29, 2023 by BHC1