The Constant Paper Writing Dilemma

[loonie]

Anyone else struggle with writing papers? I literally told myself last year to prioritize "exam-based" courses over ones that involve writing a paper because, I tend to put so much time and energy into making them "perfect." Literally takes me days just to frame arguments. At times, I will spend a day writing one page, because I am simply debating what word to start the paragraph with. Despite this, I ended up taking three paper-courses this year (shoutout to my faculty's admin for scheduling everything during the same time periods). Well, although this is somewhat true, I have only myself to blame. I tend to do well on papers, but it is definitely not worth the anguish. 

All of the courses involve having to writing a 25-30 page paper. Yet, for one course, I ended up writing 35 pages. Thankfully the prof was fine with it. I could have definitely still earned an A without having to go into so much depth, but no matter how much times I remind myself of such, I always feel the need to do so. It has plagued me since my undergrad days. Unfortunately, no matter how many times I tell myself to just write, it will likely never kick in. However, for my Substantial Term Paper, I am currently stuck because I feel even more pressure for it to be perfect. I am sure this is common for many students, but it feels like I am an extreme example -- though that might just be personal bias. 

Anyways, just wanted to vent as I think of the next word to use.. so annoying lol. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by loonie

[2easy]

How common are paper courses throughout law school? 25-30 pages sounds like a lot. 

[loonie]

Speaking from anecdotal experience, they are quite common in upper-years. However, since students have the ability to select the majority of their courses, I am sure it is possible to avoid them if it works for your schedule and mandatory course requirements. Last year, it seemed like most seminar courses required 20-25 pages, so I may have just gotten unlucky that this year that they all preferred closer to the 25-30 page range. Also, it is important to note that during first year, most of your courses in law school will be exam-based, besides your foundational legal writing course. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by loonie

[LMP]

2 hours ago, 2easy said:

How common are paper courses throughout law school? 25-30 pages sounds like a lot. 

You can avoid em to an extent. But a fair number of schools have some version of a requirement that demands a paper a year (of a certian length). 

But it all depends on how well you can work your schedule. 

[chaboywb]

9 hours ago, loonie said:

All of the courses involve having to writing a 25-30 page paper. Yet, for one course, I ended up writing 35 pages. Thankfully the prof was fine with it. I could have definitely still earned an A without having to go into so much depth, but no matter how much times I remind myself of such, I always feel the need to do so.

Your prof is doing you a disservice. Being able to distill your points and simplify your writing is an important legal skill. 

75% of the work of writing a strong paper should be before you write a single word. Understand what you want to say, sketch it out in an outline and then put it all together using only the necessary words. You shouldn’t be trying to write the paper itself until you can perfectly visualize what you’re going to say.

I say this as someone who was similar to you in undergrad and 1L and only finally learned good writing strategies in 2L. My grades went way up when I got the hang of it.

 

[loonie]

3 hours ago, chaboywb said:

Your prof is doing you a disservice. Being able to distill your points and simplify your writing is an important legal skill. 

75% of the work of writing a strong paper should be before you write a single word. Understand what you want to say, sketch it out in an outline and then put it all together using only the necessary words. You shouldn’t be trying to write the paper itself until you can perfectly visualize what you’re going to say.

I say this as someone who was similar to you in undergrad and 1L and only finally learned good writing strategies in 2L. My grades went way up when I got the hang of it.

 

That is not the reason it ended up being longer. My writing is concise for the most part. Looking back, I realize my initial post gave off the representation that I feel the need to add fluff, unnecessary details, or redundant arguments. Rather, I always have this tendency to do more. Initially, my paper was 25 pages when completed, but I reached out to ask if they wanted me to incorporate specific case studies they emphasized that they found interesting throughout the year. This led to more research and additional writing.

In regards to your second point, I agree. Like I said, I do spend a large amount of time outlining the paper. However, once I begin writing, the impulse to delve deeper into research or find the perfect words usually wins out. While the end result is usually a strong paper, it should not consume as much time and effort. 

All in all, you are definitely correct that time management is an important legal skill. Effectively prioritizing tasks and working efficiently is the name of the game. I will (hopefully) get there, lol. 

[Mal]

You should practice distancing your emotional response from your writing. It's not healthy to be obsessive about perfection. Legal practice is really difficult for people who become emotionally intertwined with their work. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

I liked the part where OP said it’s not that they add unnecessary details or redundant arguments to their paper, but that they had drafted a final paper and then added ten pages of unnecessary details and redundant arguments to their paper. 

[loonie]

4 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I liked the part where OP said it’s not that they add unnecessary details or redundant arguments to their paper, but that they had drafted a final paper and then added ten pages of unnecessary details and redundant arguments to their paper. 

Knew this comment was coming lol. It wasn’t redundant though. At least that is what we agreed on. It was a specific topic that they harped on all year. Adding supporting arguments does not make them redundant. Honestly, I thought it would be quicker to implement than it did though.

[Naj]

1L here so I suspect papers will become lengthier as time goes on, but as it is rn profs don’t want to be marking thousands of pages so our assignments (and paper exams) so far have been limited to around 5-10 double-spaced pages. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Naj

[MyWifesBoyfriend]

OP, not a lawyer, but I have experience assisting with written submissions before administrative Tribunals. 

If a Tribunal gives you 10 pages, you aren't rewarded for delving deeper. You're rewarded for 1) Understanding the governing statutes and authorities, their intent, and what is prioritized 2) Case law interpretations of said authorities, and 3) Hammering away on the important/prioritized matters that are discerned from points 1) and 2).

The key word here is prioritized. Supporting points certainly may help, but they're redundant in the sense that they either muddle your main points or serve a superfluous purpose to the main thrust of the argument. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by BurnerQuestion123

[myth000]

7500 - 10,000 words is a standard paper for an essay course.  That comes out to about 30-40 pages double-spaced.  For academic work, you can't reach that word count without either delving deep or writing about some tangential matters (the latter is tricky, the grader might consider it veering off-topic).  

[loonie]

52 minutes ago, BurnerQuestion123 said:

OP, not a lawyer, but I have experience assisting with written submissions before administrative Tribunals. 

If a Tribunal gives you 10 pages, you aren't rewarded for delving deeper. You're rewarded for 1) Understanding the governing statutes and authorities, their intent, and what is prioritized 2) Case law interpretations of said authorities, and 3) Hammering away on the important/prioritized matters that are discerned from points 1) and 2).

The key word here is prioritized. Supporting points certainly may help, but they're redundant in the sense that they either muddle your main points or serve a superfluous purpose to the main thrust of the argument. 

I should note that this was a one-off case. I typically always stay within the page/word requirements, but after discussing with the prof, they said it would add a very interesting dynamic and gave me the green light, so I was inclined to do so. Also, this seems to impact me a lot more in academics than in the workplace. Hasn't really been a problem during my two summers, for the most part.

I can definitely improve how I prioritize my time though, so thanks - appreciate the post!

Edited November 24, 2023 by loonie

[Byzantine]

16 hours ago, loonie said:

Anyone else struggle with writing papers? I literally told myself last year to prioritize "exam-based" courses over ones that involve writing a paper because, I tend to put so much time and energy into making them "perfect." Literally takes me days just to frame arguments. At times, I will spend a day writing one page, because I am simply debating what word to start the paragraph with. Despite this, I ended up taking three paper-courses this year (shoutout to my faculty's admin for scheduling everything during the same time periods). Well, although this is somewhat true, I have only myself to blame. I tend to do well on papers, but it is definitely not worth the anguish. 

All of the courses involve having to writing a 25-30 page paper. Yet, for one course, I ended up writing 35 pages. Thankfully the prof was fine with it. I could have definitely still earned an A without having to go into so much depth, but no matter how much times I remind myself of such, I always feel the need to do so. It has plagued me since my undergrad days. Unfortunately, no matter how many times I tell myself to just write, it will likely never kick in. However, for my Substantial Term Paper, I am currently stuck because I feel even more pressure for it to be perfect. I am sure this is common for many students, but it feels like I am an extreme example -- though that might just be personal bias. 

Anyways, just wanted to vent as I think of the next word to use.. so annoying lol. 

You want the words you're righting to be perfect / fully developed which stops you just getting something on the page. I definitely have a challenge with this as well. In the end, your paper / memo doesn't need to be perfect, just good enough for the situation. 

You can always follow Hemmingway's supposed advice of "write drunk edit sober". Don't actually get drunk. But sometimes I've found having a beer and then sitting down to bang out a draft removes that perfection block. Then you can come back to it later to improve. Probably not the most healthy a long term solution though... 

 

[loonie]

6 minutes ago, Byzantine said:

You want the words you're righting to be perfect / fully developed which stops you just getting something on the page. I definitely have a challenge with this as well. In the end, your paper / memo doesn't need to be perfect, just good enough for the situation. 

You can always follow Hemmingway's supposed advice of "write drunk edit sober". Don't actually get drunk. But sometimes I've found having a beer and then sitting down to bang out a draft removes that perfection block. Then you can come back to it later to improve. Probably not the most healthy a long term solution though... 

 

Exactly haha. 

[GoatDuck]

“Write like a child and edit like a professional” is the advice I got many years ago. I find that forcing myself to put words onto the paper and then spending most of my time editing the draft works really well for me. It’s worth a shot — whenever you’re trying to find the perfect way to express yourself, ask yourself “what is the imperfect formulation that I’m trying to improve in my head?” Then write down that imperfect formulation, highlight it so you can come back to it later, and keep writing until you enter the flow. 

[loonie]

7 minutes ago, GoatDuck said:

“Write like a child and edit like a professional” is the advice I got many years ago. I find that forcing myself to put words onto the paper and then spending most of my time editing the draft works really well for me. It’s worth a shot — whenever you’re trying to find the perfect way to express yourself, ask yourself “what is the imperfect formulation that I’m trying to improve in my head?” Then write down that imperfect formulation, highlight it so you can come back to it later, and keep writing until you enter the flow. 

Yeah, this is great advice that will help others with the problem I was trying to convey. Have to follow this more myself - thanks! 

Edited November 24, 2023 by loonie

[theycancallyouhoju]

You have to reconceptualize that kind of time waste as a failing, not as some inherent element of your process that ultimately ends up in good results anyway. If you can make one perfect clock that won’t be off by a second for a thousand years in one month’s effort, and some other guy makes perfect clocks that won’t be off by a second for five hundred years in a day’s effort, guess who the better clock-maker is for purposes of starting a business.

You aren’t in law school to further refine the habits and instincts of a student. You’re there to start the process of becoming a professional. In that latter context, spending a day to write a page is a failing, plain and simple. The answer to ‘sure but how do I kick the habit’ is the same as any other - just start kicking the habit. Don’t ‘remind yourself’ not to sit for an hour looking for the perfect first word to a paragraph; just don’t do that. Just start writing.

The overly-neurotic approach to writing won’t be a benefit in practice. It will be a detriment. Better to shake the habit now. 

Edited November 25, 2023 by theycancallyouhoju

[loonie]

28 minutes ago, theycancallyouhoju said:

You have to reconceptualize that kind of time waste as a failing, not as some inherent element of your process that ultimately ends up in good results anyway. If you can make one perfect clock that won’t be off by a second for a thousand years in one month’s effort, and some other guy makes perfect clocks that won’t be off by a second for five hundred years in a day’s effort, guess who the better clock-maker is for purposes of starting a business.

You aren’t in law school to further refine the habits and instincts of a student. You’re there to start the process of becoming a professional. In that latter context, spending a day to write a page is a failing, plain and simple. The answer to ‘sure but how do I kick the habit’ is the same as any other - just start kicking the habit. Don’t ‘remind yourself’ not to sit for an hour looking for the perfect first word to a paragraph; just don’t do that. Just start writing.

The overly-neurotic approach to writing won’t be a benefit in practice. It will be a detriment. Better to shake the habit now. 

Very true. This is also great advice - thanks!

[ltmaverick25]

On 11/23/2023 at 10:52 PM, loonie said:

Anyone else struggle with writing papers? I literally told myself last year to prioritize "exam-based" courses over ones that involve writing a paper because, I tend to put so much time and energy into making them "perfect." Literally takes me days just to frame arguments. At times, I will spend a day writing one page, because I am simply debating what word to start the paragraph with. Despite this, I ended up taking three paper-courses this year (shoutout to my faculty's admin for scheduling everything during the same time periods). Well, although this is somewhat true, I have only myself to blame. I tend to do well on papers, but it is definitely not worth the anguish. 

All of the courses involve having to writing a 25-30 page paper. Yet, for one course, I ended up writing 35 pages. Thankfully the prof was fine with it. I could have definitely still earned an A without having to go into so much depth, but no matter how much times I remind myself of such, I always feel the need to do so. It has plagued me since my undergrad days. Unfortunately, no matter how many times I tell myself to just write, it will likely never kick in. However, for my Substantial Term Paper, I am currently stuck because I feel even more pressure for it to be perfect. I am sure this is common for many students, but it feels like I am an extreme example -- though that might just be personal bias. 

Anyways, just wanted to vent as I think of the next word to use.. so annoying lol. 

Think about it this way. Writing papers is a valuable skill outside of law school. The papers you write during law school, if you do as well as you say, could probably be published which can only be a net benefit for you. The value of writing law exams exists only in law school at exam time. If you do well on papers consistently, and you have the option to keep taking more paper based classes, I say go for it. Continue refining your craft, keep getting good grades, and look to publish your work. No brainer to me.

[BlockedQuebecois]

42 minutes ago, ltmaverick25 said:

Writing papers is a valuable skill outside of law school.

Lol 

[myth000]

22 hours ago, ltmaverick25 said:

Writing papers is a valuable skill outside of law school.

Ha, you fool!  We forum veterans laugh at your absurd existence.

[ltmaverick25]

1 hour ago, myth000 said:

Ha, you fool!  We forum veterans laugh at your absurd existence.

Bah! I came from an academic background and always tried to publish whatever I was forced to write for school. Besides, its still more valuable than exam writing 😄

[Diplock]

The only real issue here is the word "papers" in the claim. Writing is a valuable skill outside of law school. How much you'll write professionally depends heavily on practice area, but everyone is going to do it sometimes, and some of us quite regularly. How much writing an academic paper translates to the skills you'll use to write at other times is debatable, but all writing is writing. The more you pay attention to doing it well, as opposed to just slapping something on a page, the more you'll actually improve. It would be a valid claim that posting to a forum like this - if you bother to try to organize your thoughts properly - is just as valuable as time spent on an academic paper. But it's still true that all writing is writing, and you'll definitely be doing that at times in your career.

[BHC1]

2 hours ago, Diplock said:

The only real issue here is the word "papers" in the claim. Writing is a valuable skill outside of law school. How much you'll write professionally depends heavily on practice area, but everyone is going to do it sometimes, and some of us quite regularly. How much writing an academic paper translates to the skills you'll use to write at other times is debatable, but all writing is writing. The more you pay attention to doing it well, as opposed to just slapping something on a page, the more you'll actually improve. It would be a valid claim that posting to a forum like this - if you bother to try to organize your thoughts properly - is just as valuable as time spent on an academic paper. But it's still true that all writing is writing, and you'll definitely be doing that at times in your career.

Turn those nights of Reddit keyboard warrioring into a lucrative legal career. Why settle for upvotes when you can chase Bay Street? 😉