Real Estate Law

[SmallBart]

I'm not a lawyer (at least not yet) and I'm trying to get a sense of the different avenues of practice and what it would look like where I to change careers. I'm interested in a few areas, most of which (corporate, wills and estates) are covered by other subforums. However I haven't seen much said about real estate law. I thought I'd start a thread, with a few initial questions to get things going.

1. What is your day-to-day like, both in terms of work schedule and in terms of activities (drafting, client meetings, appearance in court).

2. What's the balance in terms of litigation vs solicitor work? I'm mainly interested in working as a solicitor; is it common for real estate lawyers to work purely as solicitors? 

3. My understanding is that the vast majority of real estate lawyers work in small to mid-size firms. What is the hiring process like for these kinds of firms? There is a ton of information (and anxiety) online about the 2Ls but my understanding is that most lawyers in retail fields are hired outside of that, either through the formal articling process or informally through postings, connections, cold-calling, etc.

4. What is compensation/income like throughout a real estate lawyer's career, typically? While I don't need to make Bay Street money I'd ideally like to make a fair margin above my current career, which would be marginal if pay was similar to (for example) public law.

5. What would you advise law students do to prepare themselves for a career in real estate law, both in terms of courses and extracurriculars, summer jobs, etc?

[canuckfanatic]

I started my career with a focus on real estate law, later transitioned to banking.

1. My then-firm had a high volume residential real estate practice and I did a significant amount of it. 70% of my time involved supervising the conveyancers, reviewing closing document packages (purchase and sale contracts, titles, statements of adjustment, etc.), and meeting with clients to review and sign the packages. I looked like one of the busiest associates because I was always in and out of client meetings. I was closing 80-100 residential transactions a month, 120+ in the peak summer months.

The other 30% of the time I did other solicitor work, small business M&A and commercial real estate/commercial leasing. The real estate market ebbs and flows so you need to be capable of practice other areas - business law and wills are complementary to real estate.

2. It was 100% solicitor work for me. I dealt with some builders liens issues, but if they got to litigation I would hand it off to a litigator at my firm.

3. There is no single hiring process for small to medium sized firms. Outside of downtown cores, these firms typically don't participate in formal recruits and each will have different application deadlines and interview strategies. Many small firms hire articling students but never put up job postings. Mid size firms are more likely to post, but you'll have to do a fair amount of cold calling.

4. Varies wildly based on the firm's comp structure (base salary? fee split? hybrid?) and your local real estate market. When I articled 4-5 years ago I made $45k as a student and then $75k as a first year - straight salary. I know a smaller firm near me offered a comp structure that worked out to around $90k for a 1st year. Some mid level associates made base salary + fee split that worked out to $150k+ as 4-5 year calls. Keep in mind that I'm in Metro Vancouver, our real estate market is insane.

5. Nothing in particular. Classes in real estate law and secured transactions would be helpful, but aren't required.

[Lawstudents20202020]

I'll just add in, real estate is a high volume business if you want to make good money at it. If you are running at the kind of volume, it really doesn't mix well with litigation because of the competing timelines. Some people do balance it although that is generally either smaller practices that are running the 100+ files a month, or people who really genuinely love work and all things real estate. So yes, very common for a conveyancing lawyer to only do solicitors work.

There's not much to be done as an applicant to help with your career beyond getting in law school and doing well. Once you start practicing, you really need to network if you want to make good money. 

[SmallBart]

Thank you! Both your posts were very helpful.

[Hitman9172]

I'm a real estate lawyer in Vancouver (worked at a large firm for several years and now at a mid-size shop doing work for mostly my own clients). My 2 cents in bold:

1. What is your day-to-day like, both in terms of work schedule and in terms of activities (drafting, client meetings, appearance in court). I do solicitor work only. No litigation, so no court appearances. I'd say about half the day is spent drafting and half is spent in client meetings (whether just networking or meeting them to sign documents). I act for both property owners (buyers and sellers) and lenders. If you're acting for lenders (which makes you more of a lending/financial services lawyer than a real estate lawyer IMO, although the 2 practices complement each other), you won't have very many document-signing meetings. If you act for buyers/sellers, you'll have many more client meetings, and if you're doing smaller residential conveyances, you'll have many more client meetings than a real estate lawyer who works on larger transactions. Residential conveyancing is a volume game.

2. What's the balance in terms of litigation vs solicitor work? I'm mainly interested in working as a solicitor; is it common for real estate lawyers to work purely as solicitors? Yes, I work purely as a solicitor, and this is quite common.

3. My understanding is that the vast majority of real estate lawyers work in small to mid-size firms. What is the hiring process like for these kinds of firms? There is a ton of information (and anxiety) online about the 2Ls but my understanding is that most lawyers in retail fields are hired outside of that, either through the formal articling process or informally through postings, connections, cold-calling, etc. Correct - a lot of it is just through random applications and referrals that we receive. Not nearly as structured as my previous Bay Street firm, which always scooped up students during the on-campus summer and articling recruits. Small-to-mid-size firms are just like applying for any other job. Message people for coffee or lunch, go to networking events, try to pass your resume along if there's an opportunity.

4. What is compensation/income like throughout a real estate lawyer's career, typically? While I don't need to make Bay Street money I'd ideally like to make a fair margin above my current career, which would be marginal if pay was similar to (for example) public law. Varies greatly depending on firm. The big firm pay scale for associates is fairly standard, but small and mid-size firms will basically pay you the least it takes to keep you from leaving, and you have to negotiate more often. I'm now at a firm about 1/3rd the size of my former big firm, but I make significantly more as a senior associate here because I've negotiated a profit split (i.e., keep a % of my billables). However, I have friends at other small and medium firms that make less because they get paid a salary and discretionary bonus. You really have to negotiate. As a partner, you just get a cut of the firm's profits, so that varies wildly. My advice to younger lawyers is to learn as much as you can the first few years and then start actively trying to build a client by networking. If you have your own client book, you have way more negotiating leverage with your firm, as you can essentially leave at any time for a competitor and your clients would (theoretically) follow you.

5. What would you advise law students do to prepare themselves for a career in real estate law, both in terms of courses and extracurriculars, summer jobs, etc? You'll pick up what you need to know on the job, but it would be helpful to take real estate transactions, corporate law, and secured transactions in law school. You can also read about real estate and pick up industry jargon by subscribing to real estate newsletters and browsing websites like Investopedia. Knowing the business logic and terminology will help you understand why your clients are doing certain things, and as an added benefit, allow you to leverage your legal knowledge to structure your own real estate purchases down the road, if that's something that interests you.

Edited January 23 by Hitman9172

[SmallBart]

How does networking work for real estate lawyers looking for clients? Are you going to conferences, conventions, that kind of thing? Something less formal?

[Lawstudents20202020]

You go for lunch with Realtors, mortgage brokers and other solicitors

[Hitman9172]

3 hours ago, SmallBart said:

How does networking work for real estate lawyers looking for clients? Are you going to conferences, conventions, that kind of thing? Something less formal?

Conferences and larger events can be a good way to meet lots of people at once, but the real value comes from the follow-up lunches and coffees. I find lunches and coffees with potential clients and referral sources are by far my biggest lead generator.

[Case]

Solo practitioner. 70%+ real estate, the remaining 30% a mix of wills, estates, simple corporate law, and commercial matters (leasing, business sales/purchases). 

 

1. Seven or more client appointments a day when busy. These will be for signing real estate closing documents, signing wills or taking will instructions, signing estate applications or having an initial meeting for an estate, or reviewing or signing corporate/commercial matters. 

In between the meetings, I sprinkle in necessary correspondence on files. Phone calls and emails. And other necessary stuff like signing cheques (dozens a day) or digitally signing deeds on files closing that day. 

In between meetings and necessary correspondence, I sprinkle in the stuff I need to do to move files along. Like performing title searches before deadlines, reviewing drafted Wills and POAs, signing letters, doing the odd bit of "thinking" for a more problematic file or something weird and less common like a severance file. 

2. All solicitor work. Most people who are any effective at transactional real estate work stay away from litigation. You just can't really do it if you are doing real estate at volume - you can't be in court for a day. There ARE ways to do "real estate law" and be a litigator too but it does not tend to involve transactional real estate work; you might be someone who handles boundary disputes, or weird Planning Act cases, for example. Or you might be a general civil litigator who is just well-versed in real estate adjacent litigation, so when people get in fights about real estate you are particularly good at litigating or negotiating the salient points and wording court orders properly and stuff like that. 

3. It depends where you want to practice. I practice in a smaller town. From what I see, the most effective way to get into real estate law is just to find a single mentor lawyer. Try to find some old dude or old bird who is within maybe 5-10 years of retirement. They may bring you on as an articling student and then keep you on an associate as they transition out of practice. Then you buy their practice or just take it over (most aren't worth much of anything). 

4. It's pretty good if you are any good at it and you get any kind of foothold in the market. Once you are established you'll be making six figures reliably if you have any business sense at all and are any good whatsoever at running a business. I am speaking as a solo lawyer here. I am not that familiar with firm structures. I do know that smaller offices will probably cheap out on articling students and junior associates until they prove their worth, so you might start off at $60k or something in year 1. 

5. Doesn't really matter. Take what you are most interested in. Some might say to take the general solicitor courses like estates, trusts. Some might recommend tax law. Personally, I took a lot of health law and psychiatry law courses and did a disability law intensive at Osgoode those things were pretty beneficial as I work A LOT with seniors, and talk to people a lot about POAs and capacity related matters. 


This does not relate to a specific question but is a general comment. Doing real estate work, or solicitor work at volume, is more like running an assembly line than anything you would imagine. It's like, 85% to 90% running the assembly line and only 10% to 15% legal work/considerations. You are constantly thinking of ways that your office can be more efficient. How can you make the flow of files more seamless? How can you save your clerks time? How can you streamline intake? Do you have to change your procedures because of that new law, or that new Law Society requirement? How can you avoid wasting time on routine phone calls with clients or third parties? Stuff like that never ends. 

And that might make it seem like if you like "legal work" and using your brain for some reason, real estate law is not for you, but that's also not necessarily true! The best solicitors are so brilliant and so effective at communication that they can get things done quickly. Sometimes you flex your legal prowess by simply being able to turn a client conversation into a 5 minute chat that they understand, as opposed to the 45 minute meeting it may have been if that client had called a lesser lawyer. If you are skilled and knowlegable, you can finish a title search in 20% of the time that it would take a crummy lawyer. If you are worth your weight in printer paper, you can cut right to the point on possible title disputes and eliminate days of fruitless letters/emails/negotiations. 
 

Is being a REAL ESTATE LAWYER fun? NO!!!! But being a LAWYER is not fun at all, so you have to pick something. Are there worse areas of practice? PROBABLY!!! But I have no idea, I've never done anything else. 

Edited March 19 by Case