Working PT + Studying for the Bar Exam?

[piranesi]

Would it be a mistake to work 17-20 hours a week while studying for the bar exams? I'm in 3L and planning to write the Ontario exams this summer. I'd have ~5 weeks to study for the barrister plus 2 weeks for the solicitor. I'm used to balancing studying with work/other commitments, but I really don't want to fail these exams. Is this doable? How many hours a week do people normally spend studying? Thank you!

Edited February 14 by piranesi

[LMP]

Planning on doing the same. I think it is very doable, but obviously I can't speak from experience. 

I just don't think an all consuming effort is needed to pass. Also part-time work seems like a good way to break up the studying.

[JohnnyCochrane68]

Yes you can definitely work and still pass the bar exams.

Bar exam is really a barrier for people who have poor English proficiency or serious cognitive problems that prevent them from quickly comprehending written information.

It's an open book exam and the questions closely map to specific topics in the material - you have to learn how to use your index/table of contents to find answers quickly, which is not difficult but it is distinct from "knowing" the material like you would for a regular exam.

[BlockedQuebecois]

I'm pretty ruthless, but I don't think even I would go so far as to say that the people who fail the bar exam have either poor English or "serious cognitive problems" 😂

[CleanHands]

22 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I'm pretty ruthless, but I don't think even I would go so far as to say that the people who fail the bar exam have either poor English or "serious cognitive problems" 😂

Yeah, that guy's assertion was definitely not accurate.

I can attest to the fact that I have met people who clearly had serious cognitive problems and still passed it.

[LMP]

All the heavy hitters coming out to rip on the bar. Truly a unifying topic. 

[notsocoolcucumber]

I think the bar exam is often oversimplified when people talk about it. It is definitely something you need to put work into. However, a study plan that you stick to that includes part-time work is totally doable and very common. 

As @CleanHands mentioned, a lot of dumb people pass (or at least say they pass both exams) on the first try. I just wanted to add that I  know some really smart people, who failed one exam because they underestimated it. Most of those people did not tell anyone. People say that the pass rate is 90% - but actually it is 90% pass across the whole year (with no mention of retakes). I would say that failing one exam is more common than you think, but it is quite hush hush. Everyone I know who failed one exam passed on their next try.

Edited February 14 by notsocoolcucumber

[piranesi]

25 minutes ago, notsocoolcucumber said:

I think the bar exam is often oversimplified when people talk about it. It is definitely something you need to put work into. However, a study plan that you stick to that includes part-time work is totally doable and very common. 

As @CleanHands mentioned, a lot of dumb people pass (or at least say they pass both exams) on the first try. I just wanted to add that I  know some really smart people, who failed one exam because they underestimated it. Most of those people did not tell anyone. People say that the pass rate is 90% - but actually it is 90% pass across the whole year (with no mention of retakes). I would say that failing one exam is more common than you think, but it is quite hush hush. Everyone I know who failed one exam passed on their next try.

Thank you!! If you don't mind me asking, do you have a sense of what realistic study plans look like? I haven't managed to find a ton of info about how many hours/days/weeks people typically spend studying. If anything, I think working PT would force me to make the most of my study time (I tend to procrastinate when I feel like I have all the time in the world). People's takes on the bar seem to vary wildly, though.

[notsocoolcucumber]

I read the materials once and focused on knowing where information was. If I didn't understand the information, I also tried to get a basic understanding of the topic. I focused most of my time practising and using my index. Ideally you are spending at least a full week practising, ideally more. So I think you will want to have a bulk of your reading/ getting familiar with both sets of exam material, at least 1 week before barrister. But I think everyone is different. Feel free to study how you study best! I would just make sure you are familiar with subjects generally, know where stuff is, and practice answering questions (like the Edmond questions which are quite hard and more representative of the exam itself). 

(skip corporate tax altogether - unless you are a tax expert)

[BlockedQuebecois]

2 hours ago, notsocoolcucumber said:

I think the bar exam is often oversimplified when people talk about it. It is definitely something you need to put work into.

I don’t think this is right. I think a good proportion – probably 20% – of Canadian law students could pass with very, very minimal effort.

I did not study for the second LSO exam, and I passed without issue. I know others who similarly passed without studying. 

With that said, students should study. The cost of failing the exam is high, and so it’s not worth the risk. 

[notsocoolcucumber]

I am just speaking from experience as someone who has taken the bar in the last 2 years (being vague for anonymity's sake)--perhaps failure rates are increasing. All I said was that I know a lot of smart people who failed one exam.  I also personally felt  preparing for the bar and the actual questions were harder than people make it out to be. Repeatedly, folks were saying that everyone passes and I simply did not observe that. 

Edited February 14 by notsocoolcucumber

[piranesi]

There seems to be endless speculation out there about how easy/tough the bar exam is, the impact of recent changes, etc. I love speculation too, but I feel like it's way more useful to hear about the hours and weeks of studying that people actually put in.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts, especially @notsocoolcucumber's post above outlining the study strategy!

[BlockedQuebecois]

There's not much speculation – it's easy if you are smart and good at writing multiple-choice exams, and it is hard if you are: (i) not smart; or (ii) bad at writing multiple-choice exams. 

In any event, if you want to know the hours and weeks of studying that people put in, it's no doubt helpful to know that some people put in zero hours 🙂

[myth000]

Ignore BlockedHands.  Nobody is born with knowledge, and law school courses do not fully prepare you for the content of the bar exam.  Also, the Ontario Bar Exam is no longer a Ctrl-F exercise.  It is logically impossible to pass it by putting in zero hours. 

[Yogurt Baron]

The above exchange is exactly why threads like this are mostly pointless. Different people have different aptitudes. Strangers on the internet can't tell you what your aptitudes are.

[notsocoolcucumber]

There seems to be a bit of a generational divide in these comments. It appears* that all of the dismissive comments are from folks who have taken the bar years and years ago? (I could be mistaken). But, perhaps, things change. 

I also disagree that this thread is pointless. I am sure it is useful for prospective exam takers, at the very least, to know that some find it easy, while others do not.

Edited February 15 by notsocoolcucumber

[CleanHands]

8 minutes ago, notsocoolcucumber said:

There seems to be a bit of a generational divide in these comments. It appears* that all of the dismissive comments are from folks who have taken the bar years and years ago? (I could be mistaken).

I've never taken the Ontario bar exam.

One of the dumbest motherfuckers I've ever met in my life, who I had the displeasure of dealing with as opposing counsel, did (and passed it) though.

Edited February 15 by CleanHands

[ZineZ]

OP, be careful. It'll also depend on how you decide to prep for the exam. I took the traditional "let's highlight information like it's a rainbow, update an index and do a bunch of practice exams" route and it worked out fine. But it did require reading through a number of pages each day - and the solicitor is DENSE. Do NOT give yourself only two weeks for it, it's arguably the much more annoying test because of how long the real estate sections are.  I took my time and I don't regret it - but make sure you have a realistic study plan/schedule based on how you decide to prep and how much prep you want to do.

That all being said, I do also agree with many other posts in their jaded views on the exam. It's a giant, useless word-search which really tests your ability to know where the answers might be in your materials.  

[BlockedQuebecois]

7 hours ago, myth000 said:

Ignore BlockedHands.  Nobody is born with knowledge, and law school courses do not fully prepare you for the content of the bar exam.  Also, the Ontario Bar Exam is no longer a Ctrl-F exercise.  It is logically impossible to pass it by putting in zero hours. 

I appreciate you found the bar exam hard, but that doesn't mean it is "logically impossible" to pass it by putting in zero hours. 

I never found the Ontario bar exam to be a Ctrl-F exercise. It is an exercise in writing multiple choice exams, which is a separate skill that some people are good at. I rarely opened the materials during the exam, because the structure of the exam was such that there were at most two even potentially arguable answers, assuming you had a basic understanding of the law, and the correct one was usually fairly clear to me. 

I can appreciate that most law students don't have enough of a feel for the law to be able to write a multiple choice exam successfully without studying, which is why I nevertheless recommend studying, though! I just think it is helpful, as @notsocoolcucumber says, for students to know that there is a wide range of experiences.

6 hours ago, notsocoolcucumber said:

There seems to be a bit of a generational divide in these comments. It appears* that all of the dismissive comments are from folks who have taken the bar years and years ago? (I could be mistaken). But, perhaps, things change. 

I took the exam in the final year (or two?) prior to the cheating scandal, but I know folks who have not studied post-cheating scandal and passed without issue.

I will be perfectly blunt and say that in my experience, everyone who failed the exam at any point in time has been either: (i) not smart; or (ii) bad at multiple choice exams (which, to be fair, is a skill that is not developed in a lot of undergraduate degrees or law school). Even after the cheating scandal, the bar exam is an exam focused on weeding out foreign law graduates and not a difficult exam requiring extensive prep a la the NY bar exam. 

Edited February 15 by BlockedQuebecois

[TobyFlenderson]

I wrote the bar exams in June 2022 which was the second sitting post-cheating scandal and shortly after the rumours of a changed, harder exam started up. I've spoken to a small handful of people who wrote before and after that sitting and they also felt like the exam was significantly different, so I would encourage anyone to be cautious about blindly accepting the conventional wisdom that it's just a written CTRL+F exercise.

My approach was this:

50-75 pages a day, highlighting key terms, dates, and headings. All highlighting was one colour (yellow), which seems to be widely considered a bad idea.

I did two free half-length practice tests (per exam) to get a feel for my indices -- I didn't want to waste a paid test if I was underprepared.

I ended my studying with two full length paid tests. Be mindful that the real questions are definitely more difficult than the practice ones, and the quality of the practice tests varies wildly (some exams I took had duplicate questions within the exam, and some answers were obviously wrong/out of date). 

All in all, I studied considerably less than most people I knew, who dedicated 8-10 hours a day, 6 days a week, from the beginning of May until the mid-June writing dates. I don't think you need to do that, and I think you can probably work PT. I studied no more than 3 hours a day, 5 days a week, and that might be a slight overestimation.

Make a study plan/schedule and stick to it. Do whatever it is that you feel you need to do -- practice tests, read the materials, make your own indices (wouldn't recommend), whatever. At the end of the day, if you can do those things, and do them well enough that you reasonably believe you will pass, and you can work PT at the same time, then might as well.

If you find that on days you work, you don't have the energy/motivation to study, though, and it's derailing your plan, then I would re-assess.

[JohnnyCochrane68]

15 hours ago, myth000 said:

Ignore BlockedHands.  Nobody is born with knowledge, and law school courses do not fully prepare you for the content of the bar exam.  Also, the Ontario Bar Exam is no longer a Ctrl-F exercise.  It is logically impossible to pass it by putting in zero hours. 

It's not a content test. It's a test of your ability to find the answer in your materials. People fail because they think it's a content test

[ZineZ]

I suspect we're going to end up with a multi-day fight on the forum about whether it's a content test or a CTRL+F test. 

My view is that it can be either, depending on how someone wants to prep. I was too scared of telling my employer that I'd need to retake it to not go all in, but this is definitely a place where either strategy can work. 

One note though - I actually really enjoyed reading the materials. It's dense and it's too much, but it's teaches you the basics for some areas you may not be exposed to otherwise. 

 

[piranesi]

Thank you so much!! This is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. I find it really helpful to hear about how much time people spent studying during a given day/week and how many pages are realistic to cover per study session. Much appreciated!

8 hours ago, TobyFlenderson said:

I wrote the bar exams in June 2022 which was the second sitting post-cheating scandal and shortly after the rumours of a changed, harder exam started up. I've spoken to a small handful of people who wrote before and after that sitting and they also felt like the exam was significantly different, so I would encourage anyone to be cautious about blindly accepting the conventional wisdom that it's just a written CTRL+F exercise.

My approach was this:

50-75 pages a day, highlighting key terms, dates, and headings. All highlighting was one colour (yellow), which seems to be widely considered a bad idea.

I did two free half-length practice tests (per exam) to get a feel for my indices -- I didn't want to waste a paid test if I was underprepared.

I ended my studying with two full length paid tests. Be mindful that the real questions are definitely more difficult than the practice ones, and the quality of the practice tests varies wildly (some exams I took had duplicate questions within the exam, and some answers were obviously wrong/out of date). 

All in all, I studied considerably less than most people I knew, who dedicated 8-10 hours a day, 6 days a week, from the beginning of May until the mid-June writing dates. I don't think you need to do that, and I think you can probably work PT. I studied no more than 3 hours a day, 5 days a week, and that might be a slight overestimation.

Make a study plan/schedule and stick to it. Do whatever it is that you feel you need to do -- practice tests, read the materials, make your own indices (wouldn't recommend), whatever. At the end of the day, if you can do those things, and do them well enough that you reasonably believe you will pass, and you can work PT at the same time, then might as well.

If you find that on days you work, you don't have the energy/motivation to study, though, and it's derailing your plan, then I would re-assess.

 

[BondGuy]

4 hours ago, piranesi said:

50-75 pages a day, highlighting key terms, dates, and headings. All highlighting was one colour (yellow), which seems to be widely considered a bad idea.

 

Need to highlight (heh) this nugget. Be efficient in how you study with an eye to what the exam actually is. Not about memorizing content, it's about finding information and time management. 

To that end: colour code your highlights. I used a specific colour for timelines, one for "rules", one for statutes etc. That way when you turn to a page during the exam you can find the time in like 2 second versus having to scan for it.  Passed first try. 

Know your professional rules of conduct inside and out so you can do it rote - they just embed it in every section so it saves time if you just know the answer. Spend time on these. 

Take an advil ahead of time to counter eye strain.

And when in doubt, seek instructions from you client. 

 

[myth000]

15 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I took the exam in the final year (or two?) prior to the cheating scandal, but I know folks who have not studied post-cheating scandal and passed without issue.

So you are barely a 3-year call?  Where does the arrogance come from?  Just based on the arrogance I thought was dealing with a 15+ year call with accomplishments under his belt but who had nobody left to impress and nothing left to prove so resorting to trolling the internet with subpar comments hand in glove with CleanHands, a fellow cynical old-timer.

Contrary to certain portrayals in pop culture, the legal field does not harbor "original geniuses." If you possess enough understanding of the bar exam's content to pass, it implies you've acquired or studied the concepts and facts from some source. Your knowledge didn't emerge from a vacuum or without any study.

It's conceivable for individuals to perform well on the LSAT without extensive preparation, aside from mastering basic literacy skills, because it is a g-loaded test assessing some innate reasoning abilities. However, the Bar Exam is a different beast; it focuses explicitly on content. While it's possible to pass through making educated guesses (and that is how I passed), the emphasis here is on "educated"—meaning there was some form of engagement with the content at some point.

After the cheating scandal, the exam is no longer a Ctrl-F exercise, so engagement with the content is even more important.