International Human Rights Law Inquiry

[writeandread]

2 hours ago, Whist said:

Also not a lawyer, but I've done some of the areas I describe below while still in law school. So I'm going to bounce off Diplock's post and add that if you're genuinely interested in human rights, there is a ton of work you can do with that domestically, starting as early as 1L. If you're passionate about it, there's no shortage of options. 

It's kind of a meme in the legal community for an incoming law student/1L to say they want to do international human rights law. For some people it might genuinely be true, but oftentimes, it comes across as an expression of naïveté from people who like the idea of helping those in need, but want social prestige/glamour without getting their hands dirty.

What can you do in your 1L year, other than moots and clinics? Are there specific law firms that I could intern with to get the exposure I need?

Also, it is coming from a naiveness, as I am an admit, and have recently joined the "legal world", so I don't have much background knowledge on what is possible within the practice of IHR. But as I said in my previous response, I am not looking for prestige nor the title, I am genuinely interested in using my privilege to help individuals - whether it's on a smaller or larger/international scale. 

[ZineZ]

6 minutes ago, writeandread said:

But as I said in my previous response, I am not looking for prestige nor the title, I am genuinely interested in using my privilege to help individuals - whether it's on a smaller or larger/international scale. 

OP, the thing that you need to keep in mind is that many people go to law school with the exact same aspirations. And most will go accepting with the same mentality regarding luxury, titles, pay etc.  One of the reasons you're seeing a bit of flak is that this question is notorious for coming up often. How do I know this? Because I asked it in 2014 and @Diplock (and others) responded in a very similar way. 

But the fact here is that the field largely doesn't exist in the way many folks think that it does.  You will have a degree from Ontario - which is quite far from most of the countries that you're aspiring to help. Here's some base questions to think about:

• Do you have any previous qualifications or experience that will make you stand out to employers?
• Do you have any previous qualifications that will make you stand out to people looking for representation in Europe (for the Hague) or in other places?
• Do you have any connection to the countries abroad that you'd like to help? And if you do - what will make people from those countries choose you over someone who is local and who is brilliant?
• How will you, having practiced in Ontario and having been trained on Canadian law, sell yourself on an international stage? And if you'd like to help on a smaller scale etc - why not pick up something like refugee law in Canada?

The field exists, yes. Some people get in - yes. But in many cases it's because they first built up their CV and their reputation and then got asked to help on a case/matter etc that brought them international. 

If you're intent on going to law school - first ask yourself what you'd want to do if you stayed local. And if you can find a career that you'd be happy with - pursue it. Or else consider joining the diplomatic service or going for schooling abroad. 

[CleanHands]

12 minutes ago, writeandread said:

I am not looking for the luxuries, nor the titles. What I would like to do is gain enough knowledge and "power" within governments or the UN to make impactful positive change with a legal education. I don't necessarily have to be a lawyer, correct? Even if the "impactful change" isn't on a larger scale, I would like to eventually use my JD and knowledge of the legal world to perhaps help marginalized individuals across the world. I don't know if this would count as IHR anymore. 

The thing about bureaucratic institutions is that they don't promote idealists who want to effect change from within to any positions where they would be able to do that. The people who get promoted to positions where they are able to effect change are the yes men who the old guard are confident won't rock the boats they built. Just put any fantasies about single-handedly reforming the UN out of your mind now.

I sympathize. This is a nearly universal truth about the world that I wish I learned sooner so I would have wasted less time and energy.

Now, if you want to help Eritrean religious minorities, Iranian sexual minorities, etc, flee their oppressive countries by doing some refugee law work, that's fairly realistic--even easy and uncompetitive--work to get. You can help marginalized individuals from across the world quite easily and early in your career, after attending any law school in the country. It is unglamorous, it pays shit, and half the time not even your clients will thank you. But if helping marginalized people from far-flung places is your goal, that's the attainable version of it.

[writeandread]

5 minutes ago, Diplock said:

 If your goal is really to help people, and you aren't motivated by lifestyle, glory, etc. I'd encourage you to ask this question. Why are you so hell bent on leaving the place you can most effectively help people, to go somewhere else you'll be far less effective, just to help people there?

Answer that question, and we'll be in business.

That's true. And to your previous point about countries having their own educated human rights lawyers is also true. As for why I would like to leave, life happens, and I may need to move. Also, there are a lot of humanitarian issues that are of big concern to me outside of Canada, so I want to play a part in fixing that. Why can't my bigger life goals apply outside of Canada? 

[WiseGhost]

@writeandread

The issue is that Canadian law degrees usually aren't very portable. Knowledge of Canada's common law system is not going to help anyone in Cambodia. 

So that is why people are reacting with incredulity to the idea of using a Canadian law degree to help people abroad. But as @CleanHands is saying, there are things that you can do if you are truly committed. 

Edited February 27 by WiseGhost

[CleanHands]

3 minutes ago, writeandread said:

Why can't my bigger life goals apply outside of Canada? 

Because law is jurisdictional. If you want to practice outside of Canada you need to figure out exactly what you want to do before enrolling in any law school and attend law school in a suitable country for your goals.

FWIW one of my mentors got a degree in international criminal law from the University of Nottingham, worked on cases at the ICC after, and told me that everyone in his class did work either prosecuting or defending at the ICC after graduation. I have no idea what the ICJ equivalent of that is, but I'm sure a program more appropriate than any Canadian JD program for that is out there.

[ZineZ]

17 minutes ago, writeandread said:

What I would like to do is gain enough knowledge and "power" within governments or the UN to make impactful positive change with a legal education. I don't necessarily have to be a lawyer, correct? Even if the "impactful change" isn't on a larger scale, I would like to eventually use my JD and knowledge of the legal world to perhaps help marginalized individuals across the world. I don't know if this would count as IHR anymore. 

And FWIW - I almost went down a similar route. But if your goal is the UN or a different role - consider thinking through why a Canadian legal degree will help you get to those goals. Your courses will be focused on Canadian law (with the exception of exchange and some specific courses). This isn't really giving you any knowledge and "power" to achieve what you're looking for here.

I have some extremely smart and brilliant friends who decided that they wanted to do international work. The ones who achieved it decided to pursue top-of-the line masters programs that were more focused on their area of choice - whether it be policy, international development etc. Two out of the three went to prestigious schools abroad that were focused on those areas.

This is in no way to discount the incredible skills a legal education can give you. And it's not to knock on someone wanting to help make things better - there is a desperate need for it. But spend some time thinking about what you mean by IHR, what you expect to achieve through IHR and what other degrees or experiences may better set you up for success in that area.

[Diplock]

3 minutes ago, writeandread said:

That's true. And to your previous point about countries having their own educated human rights lawyers is also true. As for why I would like to leave, life happens, and I may need to move. Also, there are a lot of humanitarian issues that are of big concern to me outside of Canada, so I want to play a part in fixing that. Why can't my bigger life goals apply outside of Canada? 

Well, here's the thing. And keep in mind, I give you credit for engaging in honest self-analysis, so I'm trying to help you. But some of these points get uncomfortable.

Of course you are entitled to your dreams, if they include traveling around the world, living different place, etc. I certainly had my adventures too, prior to law school, and I don't fault you for wanting what you want. However. You've just acknowledged, without quite saying it, that your commitment to helping poor and marginalized people runs no deeper than your opportunity to combine that with your love of travel. Because otherwise, why are you making yourself dramatically less useful?

Look, I get that headlines can be attractive. I'm fixating on Gaza right now, but last year it would have been somewhere else. You read about shit going on there and you want to go do something. What human being wouldn't want to? And that's what people are paying attention to, right now.

I predict this is going to go one of two ways. And I'm giving you credit, still, as I make this suggestion. Try to learn more about the people who are actually around you, right here, in Canada. Once you see the genuine need that exists around you in Canada, you won't feel like you need to get on an airplane and find someone living in a hut somewhere to feel like you've made a meaningful difference. You may find yourself very interested, suddenly, in refugee law, or prisoners' rights, or disability law, or any number of other issues. You can literally save lives in those fields.

The other way this might go is that you eventually admit you're more interested in glory, lifestyle, etc. after all. And if you are, that's fine. Do what you're going to do, see the world, and quite frankly the most impactful thing you could do at that point is make a lot of money and donate some of it to worthy causes. A good bit of cash to worthwhile NGO goes a lot further than the unpaid labour of a well-intentioned and well-educated Canadian with no other applicable skills. They can take your money and hire someone who knows what they are doing - and provide employment to someone local at the same time.

Anyway, that's my suggestion. Learn more about what's going on around you first. You might be surprised at all the good you can do here. The first real thing I ever learned about social justice is this. Think globally, but work locally. If everyone did that, we'd be in far, far better shape.

[writeandread]

7 minutes ago, ZineZ said:

I have some extremely smart and brilliant friends who decided that they wanted to do international work. The ones who achieved it decided to pursue top-of-the line masters programs that were more focused on their area of choice - whether it be policy, international development etc. Two out of the three went to prestigious schools abroad that were focused on those areas.

Let's say I do an LLM abroad after my JD, does that open up more opportunities to international work? 

I definitely have to spend some time researching what it is I want, and paving the path for myself. Thanks for the advice. 

[Diplock]

22 minutes ago, ZineZ said:

One of the reasons you're seeing a bit of flak is that this question is notorious for coming up often. How do I know this? Because I asked it in 2014 and @Diplock (and others) responded in a very similar way.

Crushing dreams since 2014.

[ZineZ]

5 minutes ago, writeandread said:

Let's say I do an LLM abroad after my JD, does that open up more opportunities to international work? 

No.  You still won't have the relevant work experience OR a relationship with the relevant country/work. Again - one fundamental and basic issue here is that you'll be someone who was trained on the other side of the Atlantic wanting to go and work in "international human rights". 

But now you'll have spent approx 100k - BEFORE going for a foreign LLM that'll likely add another 50-100k in debt. 

 

 

[writeandread]

18 minutes ago, Diplock said:

Of course you are entitled to your dreams, if they include traveling around the world, living different place, etc. I certainly had my adventures too, prior to law school, and I don't fault you for wanting what you want. However. You've just acknowledged, without quite saying it, that your commitment to helping poor and marginalized people runs no deeper than your opportunity to combine that with your love of travel. Because otherwise, why are you making yourself dramatically less useful?

Look, I get that headlines can be attractive. I'm fixating on Gaza right now, but last year it would have been somewhere else. You read about shit going on there and you want to go do something. What human being wouldn't want to? And that's what people are paying attention to, right now.

Anyway, that's my suggestion. Learn more about what's going on around you first. You might be surprised at all the good you can do here. The first real thing I ever learned about social justice is this. Think globally, but work locally. If everyone did that, we'd be in far, far better shape.

Travelling isn't really part of it actually, my motivations and aspirations mainly come from wanting to help my people in Palestine:) But considering your and everyone else's responses, an Ontario JD won't do much unless I help marginalized people locally, which obviously isn't a bad thing. 

How does one think globally but work locally? This is an interesting take that I want to know more about. 

[CleanHands]

10 minutes ago, writeandread said:

How does one think globally but work locally? This is an interesting take that I want to know more about. 

One thing I enjoyed about refugee work was getting to research what the laws and social environments were like for various minority groups in various developing countries. And of course you learn by getting to know and speaking with the clients as well. It made the world feel like a smaller place.

There was some gallows humour though to the fact that when you do such research you end up thinking things like "it appears that Colombia is actually quite progressive on LGBT rights...shit." lol

Edited February 27 by CleanHands

[bettercoleslaw]

2 hours ago, ZineZ said:

 Because I asked it in 2014 and @Diplock (and others) responded in a very similar way.

Out of curiosity, can I ask what you ended up pursuing?

[BHC1]

7 hours ago, writeandread said:

I'm not exactly sure about what it is I would like to do within IHR, and what is exactly possible (I was hoping to get clarification from here). Considering the responses, I'm assuming people think I just want to live in luxury and have my name plastered in the news. That's a very big and false assumption, and maybe I played a role by saying I wanted to do IHR without clarifying.

I am not looking for the luxuries, nor the titles. What I would like to do is gain enough knowledge and "power" within governments or the UN to make impactful positive change with a legal education. I don't necessarily have to be a lawyer, correct? Even if the "impactful change" isn't on a larger scale, I would like to eventually use my JD and knowledge of the legal world to perhaps help marginalized individuals across the world. I don't know if this would count as IHR anymore. 

To your point about pro bono work and organizations as such, I think that would definitely be a possibility for me. Thank you! 

If this is what you want to do, you’ll probably have a bigger impact as a LAO refugee or criminal lawyer than as a UN P2 in Kinshasa. For those wanting to make an impact, I think the unsung people doing the former are the real deal as others on here have pointed out.

If you just really just want to live abroad as soon as possible in your legal career, look into the CBA’s international lawyer program, the various unpaid internships at international organizations like the Red Cross, or the UN young professionals program (rarely accepts Canadians). Good luck. 

Edited February 27 by BHC1

[BlockedQuebecois]

I don't really understand the issue here. 

OP, if you are certain you want to practice IHRL and you have the intellectual horsepower to do so, why don't you go to Oxford or Cambridge, become an English barrister, get pupillage (and tenancy) at an elite set which practices IHRL, and then practice? That is probably the most straightforward path to practicing IHRL with any regularity (followed by taking a similar path through Harvard/Yale/Stanford or elite European schools). 

If what you want to do is practice before the ICJ and similar institutions, why are you hung up on going to an Ontario school? Law is always going to be jurisdictional to a degree, but it's less jurisdictional when you practice somewhere like the English bar with a degree from Oxbridge than it is when you practice in Ontario with a degree from Western.

[ZineZ]

7 hours ago, bettercoleslaw said:

Out of curiosity, can I ask what you ended up pursuing?

I work in the field of Aboriginal law. I've talked about it a bit more before (feel free to go through my older posts if you're interested). 

My question was a bit nuanced - essentially "I know that I can't practice abroad easily with an Ontario degree but would it be useful if I ever wanted to work for an international organization"? And the replies were pretty helpful. Iirc I also had some questions about IHL in my follow-up questions on the same post. 

In my case, I spent time thinking about it and decided that the degree was still something I wanted. There was a lot that appealed to be about practice in Canada and it 100% turned out to be the right choice. And frankly - I can't imagine my practice being anything different. 

2 hours ago, BHC1 said:

f you just really just want to live abroad as soon as possible in your legal career, look into the CBA’s international lawyer program, the various unpaid internships at international organizations like the Red Cross, or the UN young professionals program (rarely accepts Canadians). Good luck. 

Agreed 100% on these but ESPECIALLY the YLIP program through the CBA. They shut down for a while during the pandemic but I imagine they're back up by now. 

1 hour ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I don't really understand the issue here. 

OP, if you are certain you want to practice IHRL and you have the intellectual horsepower to do so, why don't you go to Oxford or Cambridge, become an English barrister, get pupillage (and tenancy) at an elite set which practices IHRL, and then practice? That is probably the most straightforward path to practicing IHRL with any regularity (followed by taking a similar path through Harvard/Yale/Stanford or elite European schools). 

If what you want to do is practice before the ICJ and similar institutions, why are you hung up on going to an Ontario school? Law is always going to be jurisdictional to a degree, but it's less jurisdictional when you practice somewhere like the English bar with a degree from Oxbridge than it is when you practice in Ontario with a degree from Western.

Also agreed here. Ontario has excellent schools if you want to practice on the domestic end (and some international non-human rights work).

But for anyone who sees this post in the future and really wanted to beeline for international human rights work - this is really good advice. 

[WhoKnows]

2 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I don't really understand the issue here. 

OP, if you are certain you want to practice IHRL and you have the intellectual horsepower to do so, why don't you go to Oxford or Cambridge, become an English barrister, get pupillage (and tenancy) at an elite set which practices IHRL, and then practice? That is probably the most straightforward path to practicing IHRL with any regularity (followed by taking a similar path through Harvard/Yale/Stanford or elite European schools). 

If what you want to do is practice before the ICJ and similar institutions, why are you hung up on going to an Ontario school? Law is always going to be jurisdictional to a degree, but it's less jurisdictional when you practice somewhere like the English bar with a degree from Oxbridge than it is when you practice in Ontario with a degree from Western.

It's basically this if OP is set on it. Quite the bet that you have the intellectual horsepower though. 

The other alternative path I could see would be get a JD, then start your career at Global Affairs Canada in some form of non-lawyer role, preferably on a good country desk. Go the diplomat route and specialize in IHR. Though at that point the law degree is window dressing, even if it likely does help get a foot in the door at GAC. 

Edited February 27 by WhoKnows

[epeeist]

I saw this from a quick search and despite being over 10 years old the first paragraph was great (though I realize not what OP meant...) and a lot better than the bot-generated how to become an IHRL (step 1: go to law school; step 2:... step 3: profit!).

"Imagine being an international human rights lawyer. Jetsetting round the globe, setting the world's highest courts alight with spectacular oratory performances, radically changing the lives of the most vulnerable. Hell, there's probably a Nobel peace prize in there somewhere too right?

Think again. There are actually very few lawyers who would describe themselves as international human rights lawyers, partly because there are so few opportunities to practise in this competitive area but also because most would not regard it as a practice area in itself...." [emphasis added]

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/apr/26/become-international-human-rights-lawyer

I have no particular experience, but FWLIW I recall a pithy statement from someone in the broader international law field (not IHRL specifically) years ago that was something like, if you have two of the three of the following: (1) multiple language fluency; (2) a genuine significant connection like being the child of a former ambassador; or (3) genuinely relevant prior work experience; you may have a shot at getting in the field as a new lawyer.

[writeandread]

4 minutes ago, epeeist said:

There are actually very few lawyers who would describe themselves as international human rights lawyers, partly because there are so few opportunities to practise in this competitive area but also because most would not regard it as a practice area in itself...." [emphasis added]

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/apr/26/become-international-human-rights-lawyer

"People who do a lot of work in this area become quite good at finding the issues that they want to litigate about. Read the papers and think about whether there are legal angles to the story, then approach an appropriate NGO, maybe where you have done work experience and have some contacts, take your ideas to them and look for opportunities to litigate".

I am learning that IHR is very broad so finding the specific focus on what it is I would like to do would be the next step, and then looking for the opportunities myself. It's not a set pathway for sure, but it's definitely possible.

[chaboywb]

31 minutes ago, writeandread said:

It says a lot about you if you're on here bullying a student whom you know nothing about. go do your job, "lawyer"

When I was an undergraduate student, our professor asked who in the room of approximately 500 biology majors intended to become a doctor. ~95% of those students raised their hand. He then informed us that the rate of acceptance to med school is less than 10% and that at least 80% of those who raised their hand would end up pursuing a different career path.

For some people, that was a wake up call. For others, they scoffed and pushed forward toward med school anyway. And some of those who scoffed became doctors. But many more didn't.

The reason your post is attracting ridicule is because it is so unbelievably naive for the average law student to pursue and find success in this path. And we can only assume you are average because we know nothing about you. But maybe you are above average. For all anybody in this thread knows, you could be the next Amal Clooney. Someone has to be. However, even though others may disagree (and this comes from someone who couldn't have gotten accepted into UofT law), my instinct is that the next Amal Clooney would not even think twice about going to UofT if choosing between Ontario law schools. The tuition wouldn't matter. The cost of living wouldn't matter. The admission standards wouldn't matter. They would not even need to ask. And that's if they were committed to staying in Ontario - realistically, as BQ has alluded to multiple times, they would actually be pursuing Oxbridge or HYS.

If you do stay in Ontario for your JD, you'll want to:

• Go to UofT
• Participate in a prestigious fellowship program
• Be a medalist
• Clerk at the Supreme Court
• Pursue a Masters at one of the previously mentioned top world institutions

Maybe not all of these are necessary, but they are certainly the type of experiences that should be second nature to someone who intends to find success in the field of international human rights law. If, for instance, you look at the admission standards for UofT and realize you're not competitive, then you are facing your first significant uphill battle. If you get into UofT and get average grades in 1L, then that's another barrier. And so on. Take it one day at a time.

But at the end of the day, no matter where you go, do not start telling your peers that you intend to pursue this field until you have proven that it is a realistic possibility, because then you will be that guy/girl. If you just want to help people and make an impact, there are many ways to do that - literally millions of less fortunate Canadians would benefit from more lawyers who genuinely, altruistically want to help them. But don't go into those fields expecting to find fortune and glamour, let alone right away. And, finally, don't feel guilty when your posts in this thread start flashing through your mind as you prepare your application materials for the 1L recruit, as many have done before you. 

Edit: And if anyone has a few minutes to view an important discussion on the value of having high aspirations, see: 

 

Edited February 27 by chaboywb

[JohnnyCochrane68]

Like if you just want to be a bureaucrat who exercises power to affect people in poorer countries, you should work for an intelligence agency

[Dghoul]

I think that is the problem here. You have said very little about yourself besides your passion in IHR. It is an atypical path with very few opportunities. The outlook is categorically different for a 19-year-old Rhode Scholarship winner with a 4.0 GPA and 180 LSAT compared to a 40-year-old career changer who worked in construction. No advice is good for all. Without knowing you in particular, people can only give advice based on the assumption of an average applicant.

So tell people a little bit more about yourself, so this post can be useful for you.

[Hegdis]

Reminder to be excellent to one another.  If an OP isn’t absorbing the info, that’s their choice; take a deep breath and just let the thread die. 

Anyone looking to dogpile here can expect a time out. 

[writeandread]

If I don't necessarily want to be a lawyer, what are some (international human rights-focused) paths I could take instead after a JD? Any organizations I should do research on? I appreciated the advice @BHC1 gave, so anything similar of that sort, I am interested in it.