Being able to work from home (outside of COVID)

[maybemaybe]

I've been curious as to how possible it is for lawyers to work from home. For example, some engineering and business professionals I have talked to have a very nice setup where they work maybe three days in office and 2 days at home. I wondering if there's this kind of flexibility in the legal profession as well? I would think that the major roadblock to this would probably be confidentiality issues but other than that, how possible is it? How many of you had a work from home setup before COVID or will continue this kind of work environment after COVID?

[Jaggers]

I think my experience is pretty representative. I've been able to work from home since 2010 or so. In the early years, it wasn't that effective, but was enough that if you were sick or had an appointment or something, you could do a bunch of tasks and stay on top of your email from home. Within a few years, we had started to digitize a lot of our paper files, so you could do more from home.

Since that time, I have gone in house. In my last job, there was no problem with working from home when I could manage it, but I had a lot of paper-based tasks that I had to be in the office for. 

In my current job, we've gone paperless. Many people worked from home a few days a week before covid. I actually don't think most people want to work from home full time when the pandemic ends, but people will have a lot of latitude to choose what works best for them.

[Vizslaw]

I mean, most of us didn't have a choice so we adapted. I've been working at my dining room table for the past year and a half. My set up is good enough - the best thing I did was buy an ergonomic chair and slowly accumulate weights and stuff for a home gym. We were lucky - we replaced our office server in February 2020 because it was godawful, so when COVID hit in March we were perfectly set up to work remotely. Our prehistoric server didn't have that remote access function before LOL! Like @Jaggers, we've been paperless with all new clients, which started in 2016, so most of our files were always on the server one way or the other. No issues with confidentiality - the server is secured with a firewall, encrypted files and all the other things that make remote access safe.  

Your question about flexibility in the profession is a different can of worms - it really depends on the firm, their culture, practice areas, etc. My office has been fully remote the entire time and there is no reason we would need to work in-person other than personal preferences and being more efficient or able to collaborate better. Some friends at other firms have been going in pretty much full time. We are going to slowly phase back into the office once things feel a little safer and everyone is full vaccinated, hopefully next month for our team of 8.

[Axis]

I think to some degree the flexibility will remain post-COVID across the board, but the level of that flexibility may be influenced by area of practice/practice structure/client habits. I can only speak from a big shop civil litigation perspective. For example, a lot of what facilitates WFH is the ability to meet with clients by video. If the clients (which may vary by industry, structure, etc.) revert back to preferring in-person dealings, that makes WFH a lot less convenient. Another big factor in my world is of course remote court hearings, which may or may not be a permanent fixture. For everyone's sake, I hope that at a minimum the routine morning lists stay remote, but I guess we will see.

My practice is also now completely paperless, and our tech is not a barrier. But I am someone who, even this far into the pandemic, still really only has half a foot into the WFH setup without really committing. I have a desk, but it is in my living room, and is the same desk that I use for a gaming setup. I don't have a good chair or a particularly ergonomic monitor setup (I just HDMI an old and outdated monitor into my laptop and work off my laptop keyboard). That's not to say that I couldn't access other hardware if I wanted, I just haven't. Once it is possible, I will definitely be looking to be back in the office more often than not - I am someone who finds the separation of space to be hugely helpful to my productivity. But I also know many others who feel the complete opposite.

As to the confidentiality question, I guess there are really two different questions - confidentiality in terms of recordkeeping, and confidentiality in terms of who else is around you while you are working. I have not experienced, and would not have expected to experience, any issues regarding confidentiality on file/record management. But I think one issue that has not been talked about much during the pandemic, at least amongst my colleagues, is confidentiality in terms of carrying on work meetings within potential earshot of a roommate, spouse, parent, in-law, neighbour, children (adult or otherwise), etc. - even if you are always using headphones. My SO has been working out of home more often than not except for the very start of COVID, and when my SO is home, is working on a different floor of the house, so I think I have kept this managed. But depending on living arrangements, this may be more or less of a concern and more or less difficult to manage. Perhaps there is an unspoken level of understanding that people are living and working on top of each other in the pandemic, but I can't help but wonder if flags start to be raised about this kind of thing as we ease out of it.

 

[MOL]

I know lawyers that were doing the half and half prior to Covid. Pretty much everyone I know has done work from home since Covid to one degree or another. Post covid I might work the odd day on the back deck if it's really nice out and I can't be arsed to leave home but for the most part, I am much more efficient and happier working in the office. I can do remote work, I just don't want to. 

[MapleLeafs]

I know WFH is easier for seniors, but would WFH be more difficult for juniors looking to advance? Whether it be an articling student, first year associate, they all want to advance their careers. Doing so virtually seems difficult, even when the world opens again. Will ambitious juniors have to be in the office 5 days a week unlike seniors, who could potentially do 50/50? 

[SlytherinLLP]

Does anyone have any insight with respect to WFH/in-person plans for Bay Street firms? 

I've heard rumors that American BigLaw expects a full return to in-person. 

[MOL]

43 minutes ago, MapleLeafs said:

I know WFH is easier for seniors, but would WFH be more difficult for juniors looking to advance? Whether it be an articling student, first year associate, they all want to advance their careers. Doing so virtually seems difficult, even when the world opens again. Will ambitious juniors have to be in the office 5 days a week unlike seniors, who could potentially do 50/50? 

This "senior" finds it easier to work in the office in case there's an issue with the typey picture interwebby boxy thing.

[KOMODO]

6 hours ago, MapleLeafs said:

I know WFH is easier for seniors, but would WFH be more difficult for juniors looking to advance? Whether it be an articling student, first year associate, they all want to advance their careers. Doing so virtually seems difficult, even when the world opens again. Will ambitious juniors have to be in the office 5 days a week unlike seniors, who could potentially do 50/50? 

Yep, I think there's definitely going to be a benefit for juniors to coming into the office, even if they aren't technically required. You learn a lot by osmosis. Hopefully the more senior lawyers are there to teach.

[KOMODO]

6 hours ago, SlytherinLLP said:

Does anyone have any insight with respect to WFH/in-person plans for Bay Street firms? 

I've heard rumors that American BigLaw expects a full return to in-person. 

Everyone is still figuring it out, there are a lot of focus groups and surveys happening. Personally my firm isn't likely to require full time attendance for lawyers - the firmwide policy will probably include a certain amount of time that you need to be in the office, but I bet it won't be anywhere close to 100%. However, even if the FIRM doesn't require you to be there, you might find that certain partners ask you to come in, or some aspect of your work requires attendance, or you just learn much more and collect more interesting work by being there physically.

[Jaggers]

Yeah, I think that as people settle back in to office life, they will remember that there are actually way more opportunities to advance yourself professionally if you're in person with others. Those random office drop-ins, coffee breaks or lunches were all things I often learned from, developed relationships during, and even picked up work as a result of. You can try to recreate that over Webex or whatever, but you can't fully do it. I doubt many lawyers will work 100% in the office (though I will be close), but people will gravitate there again over time.

[SlytherinLLP]

Thank you both @KOMODO and  @Jaggers !

Confirms my assumptions as I plan for the articling term. There's been a lot of anxiety with incoming articling students in Toronto given the uncertainty with COVID (and especially how horrendous it is to be cooped up in a condo in TO right now). If anything, some face to face will be refreshing/enjoyable on a human level. 

[Jaggers]

10 minutes ago, SlytherinLLP said:

Thank you both @KOMODO and  @Jaggers !

Confirms my assumptions as I plan for the articling term. There's been a lot of anxiety with incoming articling students in Toronto given the uncertainty with COVID (and especially how horrendous it is to be cooped up in a condo in TO right now). If anything, some face to face will be refreshing/enjoyable on a human level. 

I feel you. We've been cooped up in a two bedroom apartment with two adults, a baby (now toddler - since this all started, he's learned to walk and talk) and sometimes a nanny for the last 15 months. I wouldn't say it's "horrendous", but it's definitely boring and tiresome, and I can't wait to get into the office and have a bit of a normal life (and am optimistic that I'll be doing that sometime this summer).

[MOL]

We go fully live in September with a graduated return over the summer, i.e. start at 2 - 3 days per week, then 3-4 and finally 5 at the end of the summer. It's not set in stone and will depend upon how things shake out but that's the current plan. Which means finding parking again......

[Jaggers]

One issue for us is that we can't go live with everyone as long as they have a requirement that you be able to have everyone physically distance while in the office at their workstations. The way most of our offices are configured, that means we can bring in about 25% of the people on any given floor. 

[MOL]

Yeah, I know some places have half the staff some in on even days and the other half on odd or some such arrangement. 

[Jaggers]

We're planning on starting with volunteers, so the number of days you get may vary based on how many people want to come in.

[PePeHalpert]

23 hours ago, SlytherinLLP said:

Does anyone have any insight with respect to WFH/in-person plans for Bay Street firms? 

I've heard rumors that American BigLaw expects a full return to in-person. 

My firm had a fair amount of WFH flexibility prior to COVID and has indicated that flexibility will remain post-COVID.  I don't expect full time office attendance will be required for any lawyers but a couple days per week in the office will be recommended and perhaps required. 

[luckycharm]

2 minutes ago, PePeHalpert said:

My firm had a fair amount of WFH flexibility prior to COVID and has indicated that flexibility will remain post-COVID.  I don't expect full time office attendance will be required for any lawyers but a couple days per week in the office will be recommended and perhaps required. 

WFH will increase the vacancy rate and decrease the demand for prime office space.  

[Jaggers]

8 minutes ago, luckycharm said:

WFH will increase the vacancy rate and decrease the demand for prime office space.  

It will have some impact. But not necessarily a huge one. Prior to covid, a lot of the biggest employers in office towers were moving to models where employees worked from home regularly and use shared space when they are in the office. You save some desk space, but you also usually reconfigure an office like that into more shared spaces, different types of workspaces, cafes, meeting rooms, etc. It doesn't always result in a smaller footprint altogether.

For example Shopify, which has announced that it is going entirely remote, leased additional space for their new headquarters in Toronto in the middle of 2020. Obviously they're growing rapidly right now, but it shows that there is still strong demand even by "remote" employers. 

And for the reasons I set out above, I think that as we settle into the new post-covid world, a lot of people will gravitate to the office more than they currently may think they will. 

[Jaggers]

Here's someone representing a company that has 2 million square feet of office space under construction, a good chunk of which they broke ground on after the start of the pandemic:

https://urbantoronto.ca/news/2021/06/hines-breaks-ground-t3-sterling-road-office-complex

Quote

“We have long since recognized the viability of Toronto’s office market and, as the city continues to grow, we believe that highly amenitized office spaces will continue to perform well in the long-term,” reads a statement by Michael Tsourounis, Senior Managing Director and Co-Head of Private Real Estate Investments, Hazelview Investments.

This person may be making a self-interested statement, but they've put their money behind it.

[Hitman9172]

I'm at a large firm in Vancouver, and what I've heard from my firm and friends at several others in the neighbourhood are that lawyers won't be mandated back full-time, but likely will be asked to come in 2-3x a week (possibly on the same days) for culture purposes (and to make sure that expensive leased real estate doesn't go to waste).

[Rashabon]

I can and have been doing my job fully remotely and I enjoy it. I get to hang out with my partner and my dog every day. I don't print, and have no need to be in the office. But I'll still go in periodically, aiming once or twice a week at the start, for morale and relationship purposes and to mentor juniors (I don't need to be in the office to advance my career anymore). But not if I have to wear a suit.

[Vizslaw]

9 hours ago, Rashabon said:

I can and have been doing my job fully remotely and I enjoy it. I get to hang out with my partner and my dog every day. I don't print, and have no need to be in the office. But I'll still go in periodically, aiming once or twice a week at the start, for morale and relationship purposes and to mentor juniors (I don't need to be in the office to advance my career anymore). But not if I have to wear a suit.

Not having to wear a suit has been the best part of working from home. Or wearing a suit for a Zoom hearing with shorts on the bottom. Incidentally, we have a dog friendly office so I'm excited to get back and see the office doggos since my spouse isn't willing to take the plunge until our spawn are a little older.

[Hitman9172]

On 6/24/2021 at 7:45 AM, Rashabon said:

I can and have been doing my job fully remotely and I enjoy it. I get to hang out with my partner and my dog every day. I don't print, and have no need to be in the office. But I'll still go in periodically, aiming once or twice a week at the start, for morale and relationship purposes and to mentor juniors (I don't need to be in the office to advance my career anymore). But not if I have to wear a suit.

Preach. These are my exact thoughts.