We Are Public Sector Lawyers - Ask Us (Almost) Anything

[TommyBratton]

Thanks everyone for the answers! They are all very helpful. 

[PzabbytheLawyer]

On 1/27/2023 at 1:58 PM, whereverjustice said:

1) "after articling I'll be on contract for a few years" - you may already understanding this, but just to be clear, this is not automatic. There isn't a simple default of hireback like there is some of the big law firms. As your articling term comes to its conclusion, you will be applying for counsel jobs, and will have to compete for those jobs. Generally you should expect contract jobs to be more "in reach" than permanent jobs at this point, because contract postings are more plentiful and because there will be more experienced lawyers (i.e. yourself in three years) competing for those permanent jobs.

2) The process described in the provision linked by @Kibitzer above is called "conversion". I understand there are some significant nuances to this (particularly around what events can 'reset the clock') but I expect they'd be explained to you either by HR or by your bargaining agent during your articling term.

To add onto this: you should be willing and open to working at other branches. If your goal is to work at MAG, this is the deal.

Finding counsel positions at MAG is very difficult as a junior lawyer. You will compete with lawyers with years of experience under their belt. Interviews are substantive, and sometimes to a degree where unless you worked at that branch, you simply won't have the requisite knowledge to be successful.

People do it. But you have to be very flexible with your ministry and practice area desires.

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by PzabbytheLawyer

[Olive]

Hello everyone, 

I am hoping for some advice in deciding which law school to attend. I am from Toronto and have 4+ years work experience in the public sector. I worked for 3.5 years in the federal government (law enforcement agency, FSWEP + Full-time employment), and last year I moved to Vancouver to work in a policy role in the BC provincial government. My goal after graduating law school is to work in Toronto as a federal or provincial crown (prefer federal), or I also have international interests (such as UN, international human rights, etc.). 

I have narrowed down my options to UBC and uOttawa. I am posting here in hopes that some government lawyers may be able to provide me with some insight into hiring practices, employment prospects, etc. for these two schools. I feel that UBC is a better choice for me for the following reasons: 

- COST: tuition is significantly lower and UBC seems to have a good bursary program. Also, I would not have to incur the expense of moving to Ottawa. Overall, it would cost me MUCH less to attend UBC.

- LOCATION: I currently live 10 mins away from UBC law building; as well the facilities at UBC are much nicer than at Ottawa

- REPUTATION: I feel that UBC has a prestigious reputation and may provide greater international opportunities. What I don't know is how well this reputation translates to the Toronto market, especially for government jobs. I know that few UBC students are hired in the Toronto OCI recruits, but I am wondering if it is because only few are interested in returning to Ontario? Or is is it the case that employers are not interested in hiring UBC students over Ontario students? 

In summary, I would prefer to attend UBC but not if it would block me from securing my desired employment in the future. Any insight would be greatly appreciated to guide me in this decision!

 

[PzabbytheLawyer]

UBC would not block you from your employment goals.

The DOJ has an office in Vancouver. Note, it is limited to litigation.

The international work you seem to want would be in Ottawa. You can find that from UBC or Ottawa. I would prioritize cost.

Note, for the truly international work in the federal government, you are very likely to have to relocate to Ottawa forever.

Otherwise, you would be limited to the DOJ Vancouver, or the BC government (which I've heard great things about regarding both).

[rugz]

This might be a long shot- Could anyone speak to their experience with the sales tax policy branch at the Department of Finance?

[Chambertin]

On 12/14/2021 at 2:57 PM, azure said:

I know some people who worked at CLOC (Ontario) and I think a lot of it has to do with certain people in leadership positions creating a toxic work environment.  This is no secret, the Star reported on this:

https://www.thestar.com/news/investigations/2018/02/22/bully-bosses-issue-swept-under-the-carpet-until-junior-government-lawyer-sent-email.html

This was a few years ago so I don't know how much of it is still relevant and if things have changed in terms of the culture. 

I would be surprised if it's changed because the non-toxic lawyers (like my former principal) left that toxic environment, and it's difficult to fire/move very senior government lawyers en masse to create a new culture.

[lawdylawdy]

On 5/16/2022 at 9:50 PM, Judgelight said:

I'd say no - I'm making 60k less than a friend of mine who works honestly comparable hours doing solicitor work. 

Next year, I'll make an extra 5k (Maybe?) whereas he'll make significantly more. Its almost like a compounding effect.

Not to mention it seems like the private sector has better vacation time (who doesn't get 15 days, now-a-days?), better benefits (I don't have any benefits, for example), tons of events for free food and activities, bonus $$$, and arrangements for you to make extra money if you bring business in. 

Unless you are going to be on mat leave, or you are doing a niche you can't do anywhere else (i.e. crown work) I'd stay away from MAG at least.

I'm sorry but I find this a bit ridiculous. First of all, let's talk about tax brackets, as you rise you get less of your money after tax. Let's talk also how you have to maintain a certain "look" as a bay street lawyer and the money you spend on clothes and dry cleaning to make that happen. Let's talk about how most of us have coaches (an extra 2-6k) to help us manage business development skills, heavy office politics and the challenges of working 60-80 hour weeks. 

Secondly, you get a $500 food budget and that's only if you spend it at the firm after 7 or 8 p.m. with most firms (even on Bay Street most people vacate the office by 6 or 6:30 [that's when parking expires typically] and goes home to their partners, kids or pets by 7, so the budget is designed NOT to be used). Most firms, including mine, used to provide meals after hours. Now you get instant noodles. Events for food and activities are there so you can spend the time that you could have spent with your friends, partner, hobbies shmoozing clients and build them business. What is the cost of that free meal really? 

Oh my favourite, let's talk vacation time. We have three or four weeks of vacation and in some cases unlimited. But with a 1700/1800 hour billable target good luck taking that time! I took literally one week of vacation all last year and had to be responsive on files and clear conflicts, etc. while I was on vacation.  

What are these arrangements to make you extra money if you bring business in? I have not heard of any. You might not even receive anything extra on your bonus as an associate. But when you bring in a new file guess what you have 15-20 hours of nonbillable work which include drafting a budget, sending a proposal and engagement letter, clearing conflicts (which might be a days worth of work sometimes), etc. The other thing is helping draft RFPs which again are 15+ nonbillable hours and you might not even see a file at all. 

Lastly, do you know that if you are on Bay Street there are times you are NOT busy but still working until 10 and 11 p.m. at night. Why you ask? Because you have a billable target. So you don't just sit around or leave work whenever you are done work, you gotta search and dig what needs to be done on files to scrounge up hours so that you stay on track to meet target. 

God forbid you get sick and fall behind on your hours! You are sick and worried the entire time how f----ed you are in making target. Have you also factored in the 200+ hours you have to spend writing articles, meeting clients, going to conferences, and doing other business development activities? I spent nearly 600 hours last year on this alone. 

What's next? Yes, the clients. How about dealing with partners who yell at you for billing too much on a file because they do not want to send a large invoice to the client even though that's how long it took you to get something done? Not something you have to worry about when you have a client steady feeding you work and who's not worrying about and won't care about the bill you send them at the end of the day. How about some clients that refuse to pay for bills that say "prepare" in dockets (apparently for court appearances you have to recall every detail of their case from your excellent photographic memory?) or that involve you talking to another member of your team such as a clerk or a student or a junior lawyer to delegate work? 

I feel really resentful when government lawyers say stuff like this because it really sounds like they have this money lala land view of Bay Street and don't realize the toll, stress, money investment, and hours associated with actually hacking it. 

[BHC1]

10 minutes ago, lawdylawdy said:

I'm sorry but I find this a bit ridiculous. First of all, let's talk about tax brackets, as you rise you get less of your money after tax. Let's talk also how you have to maintain a certain "look" as a bay street lawyer and the money you spend on clothes and dry cleaning to make that happen. Let's talk about how most of us have coaches (an extra 2-6k) to help us manage business development skills, heavy office politics and the challenges of working 60-80 hour weeks. 

Secondly, you get a $500 food budget and that's only if you spend it at the firm after 7 or 8 p.m. with most firms (even on Bay Street most people vacate the office by 6 or 6:30 [that's when parking expires typically] and goes home to their partners, kids or pets by 7, so the budget is designed NOT to be used). Most firms, including mine, used to provide meals after hours. Now you get instant noodles. Events for food and activities are there so you can spend the time that you could have spent with your friends, partner, hobbies shmoozing clients and build them business. What is the cost of that free meal really? 

Oh my favourite, let's talk vacation time. We have three or four weeks of vacation and in some cases unlimited. But with a 1700/1800 hour billable target good luck taking that time! I took literally one week of vacation all last year and had to be responsive on files and clear conflicts, etc. while I was on vacation.  

What are these arrangements to make you extra money if you bring business in? I have not heard of any. You might not even receive anything extra on your bonus as an associate. But when you bring in a new file guess what you have 15-20 hours of nonbillable work which include drafting a budget, sending a proposal and engagement letter, clearing conflicts (which might be a days worth of work sometimes), etc. The other thing is helping draft RFPs which again are 15+ nonbillable hours and you might not even see a file at all. 

Lastly, do you know that if you are on Bay Street there are times you are NOT busy but still working until 10 and 11 p.m. at night. Why you ask? Because you have a billable target. So you don't just sit around or leave work whenever you are done work, you gotta search and dig what needs to be done on files to scrounge up hours so that you stay on track to meet target. 

God forbid you get sick and fall behind on your hours! You are sick and worried the entire time how f----ed you are in making target. Have you also factored in the 200+ hours you have to spend writing articles, meeting clients, going to conferences, and doing other business development activities? I spent nearly 600 hours last year on this alone. 

What's next? Yes, the clients. How about dealing with partners who yell at you for billing too much on a file because they do not want to send a large invoice to the client even though that's how long it took you to get something done? Not something you have to worry about when you have a client steady feeding you work and who's not worrying about and won't care about the bill you send them at the end of the day. How about some clients that refuse to pay for bills that say "prepare" in dockets (apparently for court appearances you have to recall every detail of their case from your excellent photographic memory?) or that involve you talking to another member of your team such as a clerk or a student or a junior lawyer to delegate work? 

I feel really resentful when government lawyers say stuff like this because it really sounds like they have this money lala land view of Bay Street and don't realize the toll, stress, money investment, and hours associated with actually hacking it. 

If it’s any conciliation, I’m a government lawyer on maternity leave and agree with you 90 percent. I used to have nightmares about hitting billable targets when I did private practice. It’s a stress I don’t ever wish to feel again. Grass is always greener. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

@lawdylawdy you need to move to a better firm, mate. 

[lawdylawdy]

19 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

@lawdylawdy you need to move to a better firm, mate. 

It's the same across Bay Street. They all coordinate as closely as possible on what perks associates get because they don't want to lose lawyers to each other. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

There’s only so much that can be done to help someone who thinks dry cleaning is a material expense when they’re making 200k plus. But to the extent it’s helpful, there are firms on bay street where many of your complaints have no basis in reality. 

[lawdylawdy]

6 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

There’s only so much that can be done to help someone who thinks dry cleaning is a material expense when they’re making 200k plus. 

This is called the straw man fallacy since it ignores 90% of my post on why there's a financial investment component to working on Bay Street.

As to your post about other firms, you are free to tell me where these perks are a thing. I have friends across Bay Street and worked at two firms. Some are even worse.

[BlockedQuebecois]

Well no, it’s called a joke. Which I made because it’s so obviously ludicrous to even suggest that you come out behind working on Bay as opposed to working in the public sector that the sentiment deserves to be met with ridicule. 

In any event, I’m fairly certain all of the sisters still offer meal reimbursement weeknights and weekends if you’re in the office. They’re also generally busy enough that you don’t need to scrounge up hours. 

Most of them also now have relatively casual dress codes, to help keep your dry cleaning bill down 🙂 

Edited November 12, 2023 by BlockedQuebecois

[123]

Are most Bay Street lawyers really spending $2,000.00 - $6,000.00 on coaches to help manage business development skills? I’ve never heard of that. But I work in the opposite of big law, so there’s probably lots of things I’ve never heard of. 

[Rashabon]

No, they aren't.

[lawdylawdy]

3 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Well no, it’s called a joke. Which I made because it’s so obviously ludicrous to even suggest that you come out behind working on Bay as opposed to working in the public sector that the sentiment deserves to be met with ridicule. 

In any event, I’m fairly certain all of the sisters still offer meal reimbursement weeknights and weekends if you’re in the office. They’re also generally busy enough that you don’t need to scrounge up hours. 

Most of them also now have relatively casual dress codes, to help keep your dry cleaning bill down 🙂 

Again, meal reimbursement is if you work in the office after 7 p.m. Most of us are working at home after 7 p.m. 

And again, straw man-ing, I never said you come out financially behind public sector, but once you add it all up you pay for the financial gain with stress and a lot more hours. 

It's not fully casual, you have business casual. When you meet with clients, which is several times a week, you still need to wear business clothes. 

1 hour ago, Rashabon said:

No, they aren't.

Most are also not making partner, so. 

[Rashabon]

4 minutes ago, lawdylawdy said:

Again, meal reimbursement is if you work in the office after 7 p.m. Most of us are working at home after 7 p.m. 

And again, straw man-ing, I never said you come out financially behind public sector, but once you add it all up you pay for the financial gain with stress and a lot more hours. 

It's not fully casual, you have business casual. When you meet with clients, which is several times a week, you still need to wear business clothes. 

Most are also not making partner, so. 

I don't think you need to tell me about making partner :). I don't know anyone spending that kind of money on coaching. We all spend it on actually doing business development, which we get reimbursed for.

Also I don't meet with clients several times a week and don't know anyone who really does in a big firm environment, though maybe litigators are different. But almost no one wears a suit anymore. I wear jeans and a sweater a lot of days, though I do wear a suit fairly often because it's just easier. I haven't worn a tie in forever and business casual is pretty easy for most people to dress for without breaking the bank.

[lawdylawdy]

1 minute ago, Rashabon said:

I don't think you need to tell me about making partner :). I don't know anyone spending that kind of money on coaching. We all spend it on actually doing business development, which we get reimbursed for.

Also I don't meet with clients several times a week and don't know anyone who really does in a big firm environment, though maybe litigators are different. But almost no one wears a suit anymore. I wear jeans and a sweater a lot of days, though I do wear a suit fairly often because it's just easier. I haven't worn a tie in forever and business casual is pretty easy for most people to dress for without breaking the bank.

Well, I spend that kind of money on coaching and I know several other people who do. 

I'm in litigation so I have maybe maximum 2 days a week that I do not need to wear business clothes. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

29 minutes ago, lawdylawdy said:

you pay for the financial gain with stress and a lot more hours.

Well, you certainly seem to! 

[Rashabon]

That's voluntary. That's like saying you need to shop at Harry Rosen for all your suits and you need to wear a Patek Philippe watch to fit in. Sure you can spend on things. Everyone can always spend on things. That doesn't make it mandatory or part of the job.

[CleanHands]

Can the mods split off @lawdylawdy's nonsense (and the posts calling her out)? It's the opposite of what the thread is about.

[lawdylawdy]

28 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

Can the mods split off @lawdylawdy's nonsense (and the posts calling her out)? It's the opposite of what the thread is about.

Nonsense is my retort to the claim that government lawyers work comparable hours to Bay Street while making a lot less? Ok. Why are they all not flocking to Bay Street then if it's equally oppressive? Seems to me like Bay Street lawyers keep flocking to government and not the other way around. 

1 hour ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Well, you certainly seem to! 

Oh good, when you run out of good retorts, attack personally.

1 hour ago, Rashabon said:

That's voluntary. That's like saying you need to shop at Harry Rosen for all your suits and you need to wear a Patek Philippe watch to fit in. Sure you can spend on things. Everyone can always spend on things. That doesn't make it mandatory or part of the job.

So in your view, you don't think there is a higher cost or investment you have to make to be on Bay Street vs. government? You seem to pick one expense in order to attack my entire argument but let's go back to the point I'm trying to make and not pick at each of the examples separately. 

[CleanHands]

7 minutes ago, lawdylawdy said:

Why are they all not flocking to Bay Street then if it's equally oppressive?

Because some people want to do work of some social value instead of representing Dow Chemical after they knowingly sell defective resin that causes pipelines to leak gas?

Of course, given the values embedded in your posts I can see why this thought never would have even occurred to you.

Edited November 12, 2023 by CleanHands

[lawdylawdy]

4 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

Because some people want to do work of some social value instead of representing Dow Chemical after they knowingly sell defective resin that causes pipelines to leak gas?

Of course, given the values embedded in your posts I can see why this thought never would have even occurred to you.

LOL ok I'm not sure what "values" are embedded in my post but I have appeared as Crown counsel on behalf public authorities while in my BigLaw job and I have almost exclusively worked for public agencies, authorities, municipalities, etc. I won't tell you the area I am at but if you knew you'd know how far off you're in your misjudgment of me or of BigLaw. 

I have friends who run departments at public agencies and they send the overflow work to me to do around the clock all weekend so they can enjoy their weekend, families and hobbies, etc. That's what they have external counsel for. 

Even working on corporations' files I've never had to excuse the actions of big bad companies and I have never felt like my clients were unethical. The most unethical files were those representing an individual who wanted to stick it to a government, public authority, or big company because they somehow had a misconception of litigation as being a money-making enterprise. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

If big law is such a bad deal, have you considered leaving? 🙂