We Are Public Sector Lawyers - Ask Us (Almost) Anything

[lawdylawdy]

3 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

If big law is such a bad deal, have you considered leaving? 🙂 

ACTIVELY. But since government is such a bad deal too, then where to go but off a bridge? 

[BlockedQuebecois]

You’ve lost the plot – you think government jobs are cushy! 

[lawdylawdy]

2 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

You’ve lost the plot – you think government jobs are cushy! 

I wonder if there's a way to block you because you are clearly a troll. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

On mobile, hit the three bars on the top right, then account, then ignored users 🙂 

I’m not sure how highlighting that you’re the one arguing government jobs are cushy and I was the one saying big law jobs are fine and not terribly stressful amounts to trolling, but feel free to ignore me. 

[CleanHands]

The funny thing is that by the end of his tenure here I came to really dislike Judgelight (to the extent that one can dislike a random user on an Internet forum they've never met) and consider him to be a disgraceful excuse for a Crown and someone nobody should listen to.

But someone has come along to argue with him and managed to have even worse opinions that are even more delusionally lacking in perspective than his "Crown positions pay poverty wages" take.

I hate lawyers more every day reading this shit in between assisting clients who grew up being shuffled between foster homes where they were sexually assaulted growing up and then became homeless substance abusers as adults (but who still somehow manage to show more humanity, decency and generosity on average than members of our profession). I think I need a break from the forums. Thanks to @BlockedQuebecois and @Rashabon for repeatedly keeping it real in the face of the endless tide of narcissists here who think they are getting a terrible deal and are really hard done-by in Canadian BigLaw, at least.

[myth000]

I don’t know which jobs are cushier than others. Generally, due to their unionized nature, government jobs are considered cushy, but I don’t know if that applies to all positions. However, I do know for a fact that the aforementioned gang of A-holes must have fairly cushy jobs since they seem to have hours upon hours of free time to troll a law school forum.

[LMP]

I think everyone's had their say. If you don't have something to say about the topic of the thread, keep it to yourself or make a new thread. Let's not dilute a really valuable resource like this thread. 

[GoBigOrGoHome]

55 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

You’ve lost the plot – you think government jobs are cushy! 

Definitely not. There are Crown Counsel in Vancouver that are working nearly every weekend because of the teams that they are on.

Perhaps with some MAG teams you have less pressure because you don't have active trials, but government work often is a lot of understaffing and a lot of expectations (but isn't that the entire legal profession).

 

[PzabbytheLawyer]

I've worked at firms and government. You have busy times. You have slow times.

It's honestly a culture thing more than a where you practice thing. I really recommend you switch employers. From the sounds of your practice area (sorry, but it's not difficult to guess with what you mentioned), you have your pick of options both in firms, government, and in-house.

[talon4841]

How do you navigate the delicate balance between upholding legal principles and aligning with governmental policies, ensuring that your advice as a public sector lawyer remains both legally sound and in harmony with the broader objectives of the government?i met with injury lawyer in odisa they explained alot but i want to add something additional

[krokatron]

How easily can someone who works for Ontario MAG - Criminal, relocate within Ontario? For example, can one Article in Toronto, and then seamlessly transition to working in Northern Ontario/ (i.e. Sudbury or Thunder Bay) after articles finish (still within Ontario MAG - Criminal)? 

Basically - what is mobility like within MAG? 

[StephenToast]

6 minutes ago, krokatron said:

How easily can someone who works for Ontario MAG - Criminal, relocate within Ontario? For example, can one Article in Toronto, and then seamlessly transition to working in Northern Ontario/ (i.e. Sudbury or Thunder Bay) after articles finish (still within Ontario MAG - Criminal)? 

Basically - what is mobility like within MAG? 

After articling with MAG, you will be put into the Student Hireback Pool for a limited time period, making you an internal candidate for other MAG jobs. There's no formal process for a seamless, automatic transition from articling student to a Crown, whether to stay where you articled or to go to another office.

I suspect it would be much easier to go from Toronto to up north rather than the other way around. (This is a hunch, I don't have experience with the MAG outside of Toronto)

The North Bay office is currently hiring for a permanent Crown position with priority for MAG lawyers and articling students:

https://www.gojobs.gov.on.ca/Preview.aspx?Language=English&JobID=210439#:~:text=Step 1%3A All regular/fixed-term OCAA and ALOC lawyers on staff%2C current Redeployment List Members and current Articling Student Hireback Pool Members. 

[krokatron]

2 minutes ago, StephenToast said:

After articling with MAG, you will be put into the Student Hireback Pool for a limited time period, making you an internal candidate for other MAG jobs. There's no formal process for a seamless, automatic transition from articling student to a Crown, whether to stay where you articled or to go to another office.

I suspect it would be much easier to go from Toronto to up north rather than the other way around. (This is a hunch, I don't have experience with the MAG outside of Toronto)

The North Bay office is currently hiring for a permanent Crown position with priority for MAG lawyers and articling students:

https://www.gojobs.gov.on.ca/Preview.aspx?Language=English&JobID=210439#:~:text=Step 1%3A All regular/fixed-term OCAA and ALOC lawyers on staff%2C current Redeployment List Members and current Articling Student Hireback Pool Members. 

Thanks!

Follow up question - is pay within MAG Criminal standardized across the province (commensurate with experience of course) - or is it location dependent? 

Also - what kind of salary can a Assistant Crown Attorney working in Northern Ontario, expect? If the Sunshine List is to be believed....90K - 100K? 

[StephenToast]

6 hours ago, krokatron said:

Thanks!

Follow up question - is pay within MAG Criminal standardized across the province (commensurate with experience of course) - or is it location dependent? 

Also - what kind of salary can a Assistant Crown Attorney working in Northern Ontario, expect? If the Sunshine List is to be believed....90K - 100K? 

Ontario Crown salary is governed by a collective agreement that is not published. You can cross check people called in the same year from different offices and their salary listed on the sunshine list to find out. As far as I know, it is not location specific.

The feds have a different pay scale for Toronto and non-Toronto crowns.

https://www.tbs-sct.canada.ca/agreements-conventions/view-visualiser-eng.aspx?id=13#tocxx222137

 

Edited January 28, 2024 by StephenToast

[Kibitzer]

Just a few additional points. 

I'm not directly familiar with the criminal side however Crim/Civil are subject to the same collective agreement. Based on that, I have never heard of differences in pay per region. 

You are in the Student Hireback Pool for two years after articling. 

For CC1 lawyers (read Junior), this is the current salary schedule. New calls start at Step 0 and then proceed to move up a step every six months (January 1 & July 1) unless they receive an exceptional rating in which case they move up two steps. This is rare though. 

Step 0: $94,408

Step 1: $97,156

Step 2: $100,000

Step 3: $102,964

Step 4: $106,032

Step 5: $109,229

Step 6: $112,543

Step 7: $115,984

Step 8 $119,585

Step 9 $126,166

Step 10: $129,952

[atelieranicca]

Hi folks!

I'm a 3L and will be articling at a MAG office from 2025-2026, and wanted to reach out for some advice as I've been feeling really anxious about the thought of articling. 

1) What general advice do you have for articling in the public sector?

2) I live with a disability and one of my concerns is navigating the stresses of articling while dealing with my health issues, which can have unexpected flareups. My office is aware of my need for accommodations and has been supportive, but during flareups, it's always difficult to anticipate what my capacity might look like on any given day or week. Any advice for navigating articling with a disability? 

3) What advice do you have for navigating hiring post-articling? At what point should I be thinking about this, and what can I do to optimize my chances of staying within government? I'm aware that my office tends not to hireback, so I would likely have to apply to other MAG offices after articling.

4) What did mentorship look like during your time articling with MAG? 

Thank you in advance!

[SNAILS]

The following is based on a 3 month placement with MAG (in law school) where about half a dozen articling students were also working in our office and my articling with Legal Aid.

(1) Relax. Your main duties to start are to show up on time and dress and act professionally. You will observe a lot of court. You will be given research tasks and you demonstrate your competence primarily by the quality and punctuality of your briefs and memos. Later, you'll speak in court on simple matters.

You will probably be given some tasks that arrogant law students think are beneath them like printing and binding materials, rushing out of court to get something for your supervising lawyer, and so on.  Don't be arrogant. Embrace those tasks because they are essential to moving cases along and you will be seen as useful.

I found private practice with a criminal lawyer to be "Mad Max: Fury Road" (intakes, Zoom court on two computers in two different courts; last minute trial prep for my supervising lawyer). Public Practice by comparison is like diner with the Queen of England by comparison. If anything, I find it too slow paced and wish I was MORE involved and relied upon in court process (whereas in private practice I felt I was relied upon for everything).

(2) Whatever your disability, they'll be as accommodating as reasonably possible.

(3) Public sector is province wide. Consider jobs at every courthouse. The jobs in more remote court locations will be less competitive. If you don't want to move to a remote area, you'll need to prepare yourself for probably moving to private practice. The time to apply for new call jobs will be 2-4 months before your articling ends (so you have lots of time still).

You can try to increase your chances of being hired back by doing a good job and expressing interest to people in a position to hire. But hire backs are largely beyond your control. If there's no open position at your office, there is nothing you can do. Likewise, if there is an open position, a better qualified candidate (or more senior in the hiring pool) could take the job. But then again, new doors can open very suddenly for you.

Myself, I like to have a backup plan. I have an informal agreement with one lawyer that I'll work for him if there's no public sector offer for me, and he'll hire me if his firm needs someone in the Spring. I have even more informal agreements with some other lawyers (i.e. maybe think about hiring me in the Spring if their current articling student moves away).

If you don't know any lawyers, you'll meet tons articling assuming you are litigating with MAG (i.e. criminal).

(4) I found mentorship better in public than in private practice. Most lawyers anywhere are incredibly busy 90% of the day, and also want to be uninterrupted while having their lunch or socializing with a colleague. 

Spotting opportunities for mentorship is your biggest friend. A client did not show up and the motion is cancelled? Great! Ask about that case with the interjurisdictional support order that you did not understand. Email is your second biggest friend. Subject: "When can I meet with you to talk about my factum in the Jones matter?" Granted, you might find yourself staying late or missing lunch, but I found mentorship to be quite generous on your supervising lawyer's schedule and convenience (not yours).

Some are mentors are better than others of course. I have one lawyer who will not leave to go home at the end of the day until all my questions are answered. Most others might allow a question or two. 

The key to getting mentorship is that you need to be the one to push and ask intelligent and appropriate questions based on having tried to find answers yourself.

I take a lot of notes during the day, and I use a red font to indicate areas I have questions on. Then, if the lawyer asks "Any questions?" I can spot issues from hours or even days ago. "Why didn't the Crown 524 the charges on that Smith Bail Hearing last Tuesday?"

 

Edited November 23, 2024 by SNAILS

[Kibitzer]

On 11/22/2024 at 10:17 PM, atelieranicca said:

m a 3L and will be articling at a MAG office from 2025-2026, and wanted to reach out for some advice as I've been feeling really anxious about the thought of articling. 

Sorry if I missed it. Are you articling on the criminal or civil side? 

[atelieranicca]

6 hours ago, Kibitzer said:

Sorry if I missed it. Are you articling on the criminal or civil side? 

Technically neither, I'm at one of the offices with the Victims and Vulnerable Persons Division!

[Kibitzer]

22 hours ago, atelieranicca said:

Technically neither, I'm at one of the offices with the Victims and Vulnerable Persons Division!

Haha right yes, admittedly I tend to lump all everyone not in crim law, together. 

I am in civil law division but given both VVPD and CVLD lawyers have somewhat similar practices and are part of ALOC I think my thoughts are still applicable.

1. All the usual advice for articling applies. As it relates to MAG/government, I would say take advantage of all the learning/networking opportunities that exist across MAG. One of the biggest benefits of MAG is the ability later on in your career to work in different offices. Meeting people from those offices and learning about their practices is quite helpful. Many if not all of these are marketed as optional but to the extent you can attend you should. 

2. Communicate early with your principal about this issue, assuming you feel comfortable. They want to see you succeed and can help advocate for you. Similarly, while not necessary to formally engage with them right away, become familiar with ALOC and what they can do to support you should you ever need it. 

3. First, don't stress over it. Focus on being a good articling student, being a good team player, and producing good work. As indicated in point 1, meet and chat with people from across MAG. When I went into government, I thought networking was just a thing for private practice however in my opinion that is not the case. It always helps to know what type of work your colleagues do across MAG. This doesn't have to be overly formal but just try to think of your workplace as MAG and not just your office. 

Procedurally, the normal path to a counsel position is by formally competition in a job competition. As an articling student, you are unable to start competing until I believe 1-2 months before the end of your articling. So in that sense you can avoid stressing about it. There is no predicting what the needs of your or another office will be like months from now.

Concretely, in addition of course being a good articling student/being a good team player/producing good work, I would recommend to take any opportunities that arise that involve working with counsel from other offices. This could include files that touch on multiple ministries or could include volunteering to present research. While these opportunities are not common, if they arise I would strongly recommend volunteering for them. Last, do your best to get a well rounded articling experience that provides you skills that are marketable to different offices. 

4. In my experience, while the formal mentoring in an individual office can be hit or miss, there is still substantial mentoring when taking into account informal mentoring and across organization mentoring. For instance, during my time, while I was not given a formal mentor asides from my principal, the junior lawyers in my office went above and beyond to support the students. Naturally we each gravitated towards certain counsel and they became our informal mentors. More recently, from what I recall, both MAG and ALOC offer formal mentoring programs that pair students/junior counsel up with more senior counsel. As mentioned by SNAILS, most lawyers are more than willing to chat and answer questions. It obviously depends on how busy they are but unlike the private sector they do not have billable hours on their mind. 

 

Overall, articling in MAG is a well oiled machine. While it is natural to feel anxious, you will be in good hands and will do great. 

 

 

[penguin]

On 12/14/2021 at 2:57 PM, azure said:

I know some people who worked at CLOC (Ontario) and I think a lot of it has to do with certain people in leadership positions creating a toxic work environment.  This is no secret, the Star reported on this:

https://www.thestar.com/news/investigations/2018/02/22/bully-bosses-issue-swept-under-the-carpet-until-junior-government-lawyer-sent-email.html

This was a few years ago so I don't know how much of it is still relevant and if things have changed in terms of the culture. 

Does anyone have more current insight into Crown Law Office Civil? Is the culture better now? 

[Kibitzer]

On 12/14/2024 at 11:30 AM, penguin said:

Does anyone have more current insight into Crown Law Office Civil? Is the culture better now? 

I don't work there and never have so take my comments with more than a grain of salt. That said, I work in MAG so am generally aware about culture there from what I hear from others. My take of CLOC is as follows.

I think the culture is better compared to what was documented in those news articles. MAG and specifically CLOC has tried to put effort into changing things for the better. I do not think there is an atmosphere of constant fear of retribution. 

However, CLOC is a very busy office that never seems to have enough lawyers. And this is not because of managers in that office not wanting to hire but because of more central pressures to reduce the number of number of employees across government including within MAG. Meaning, you have lawyers who feel overworked and managers who know this but can't easily do anything about it. The work just keeps coming. This can lead to stress and burnout which I think are still problems CLOC faces but from what I gather it at least doesn't have those other toxic elements. With all that work, there is of course the ability to get a lot of great experience. But you end up working a job that looks far more like bay street hours/demands (at least in your junior days) without getting the pay, which can wear you down after a while.

I have friends who work at CLOC who enjoy it but I also know many people who have moved to other offices because of the workload. 

 

[TommyBratton]

On 11/22/2024 at 10:17 PM, atelieranicca said:

Hi folks!

I'm a 3L and will be articling at a MAG office from 2025-2026, and wanted to reach out for some advice as I've been feeling really anxious about the thought of articling. 

1) What general advice do you have for articling in the public sector?

2) I live with a disability and one of my concerns is navigating the stresses of articling while dealing with my health issues, which can have unexpected flareups. My office is aware of my need for accommodations and has been supportive, but during flareups, it's always difficult to anticipate what my capacity might look like on any given day or week. Any advice for navigating articling with a disability? 

3) What advice do you have for navigating hiring post-articling? At what point should I be thinking about this, and what can I do to optimize my chances of staying within government? I'm aware that my office tends not to hireback, so I would likely have to apply to other MAG offices after articling.

4) What did mentorship look like during your time articling with MAG? 

Thank you in advance!

Seems like you have good answers for #1 and 2, so I'll focus on 3 and 4. For context, I worked for MAG CVLD and now am a Crown. 

3) In the new year, you will be invited to a Webinar where they will explain hireback. The TLDR is that you are eligible to apply for internal MAG contract postings, both on the crim and civil sides. Your hireback eligibility for these contracts will be 2 years from June, but if I remember correctly, I think I was eligible to start applying for internal MAG jobs around early April. I also applied to jobs outside of MAG, but didn't get much interest (only got one private interview). For the Crown Law office I am currently working at as an Assistant Crown Attorney, I ended up interviewing there the week before I got called to the Bar, and got a job offer the following week. For my peers who were also part of ALOC (so basically anyone that articled with the Crown but wasn't in Crim), the vast majority of us got hired back to our original office, secured a contract a different civil law office, went private, or became Crowns like me. There was lots of variety, but at the end of the day, MAG is a respected place to article. 

4) I had my articling principal, who I met with every other week, as well as an ALOC mentor that I met with 3-4 times for coffee. Junior counsel also initiated formal meetings with us at consequential times (i.e. when we started, when we were about to start applying to contracts). And more or less, whenever I wanted career advice, people were very willing to give candid advice. Myself and one other student both competed for the same contract (there was only one spot), and people were so nice and helpful after hearing out that I didn't get it. 

[JohnnyCochrane68]

On 12/15/2024 at 3:26 PM, Kibitzer said:

I don't work there and never have so take my comments with more than a grain of salt. That said, I work in MAG so am generally aware about culture there from what I hear from others. My take of CLOC is as follows.

I think the culture is better compared to what was documented in those news articles. MAG and specifically CLOC has tried to put effort into changing things for the better. I do not think there is an atmosphere of constant fear of retribution. 

However, CLOC is a very busy office that never seems to have enough lawyers. And this is not because of managers in that office not wanting to hire but because of more central pressures to reduce the number of number of employees across government including within MAG. Meaning, you have lawyers who feel overworked and managers who know this but can't easily do anything about it. The work just keeps coming. This can lead to stress and burnout which I think are still problems CLOC faces but from what I gather it at least doesn't have those other toxic elements. With all that work, there is of course the ability to get a lot of great experience. But you end up working a job that looks far more like bay street hours/demands (at least in your junior days) without getting the pay, which can wear you down after a while.

I have friends who work at CLOC who enjoy it but I also know many people who have moved to other offices because of the workload. 

 

Being on the other side of CLOC lawyers you can tell they are brutally overworked by the way they get outworked on files. Like they show up to a cross and ask three questions. 

[Kibitzer]

On 1/29/2024 at 9:02 AM, Kibitzer said:

Step 0: $94,408

Step 1: $97,156

Step 2: $100,000

Step 3: $102,964

Step 4: $106,032

Step 5: $109,229

Step 6: $112,543

Step 7: $115,984

Step 8 $119,585

Step 9 $126,166

Step 10: $129,952

FYI, not sure if this has been posted somewhere else but as of July 1, 2024, in part as a result of the Bill 124 litigation, the following is the MAG pay scale:

CC1
Step 0: No longer exists

Step 1: $105,646

Step 2: $108,739

Step 3: $111,963

Step 4: 115,298

Step 5: $118,774

Step 6: $122,380

Step 7: $126,120

Step 8: $130,035

Step 9: $137,191

Step 10: $141,308

CC3

$151,497 - $249,196

Articling Students

$1,608.23 per week