Sex work and law

[123]

25 minutes ago, Glamurosa said:

As for the fitting in comments a few have made. No one who's ever met me would guess I'm an escort, I do not cong across like the general populations misconceptions of who and what escorts are. I have zero doubt I can fit in in a professional environment, I did it before, and I do it now. It's not average people who can pay thousands of dollars for an overnight date. Many of my clients seek me out because of how professional, well spoken and put together I come off as. There's a reason they pick up on this through my marketing, it's partially by design, but it is also because its the truth. 

That's not what I meant by fit. I didn't mean "fitting in", or that you wouldn't be able to appear professional to others. I'm sure you can.

I was talking about whether you would want to work with people who would judge you, if they knew about your history. For me, that's a clash of values. I wouldn't want to work long hours with people who would judge me for sex work. I want to work with people who would be accepting of that. As alluded to, I've worked with people who didn't share my values before, and I found it to be taxing. I'm a sole now, but I'm surrounded by colleagues who I'm on the same page with. I find that to be enormously helpful. 

It's up to you whether that kind of fit is important to you. I'm just saying that it was to me, and that it's something to think about. 

[Glamurosa]

10 minutes ago, realpseudonym said:

That's not what I meant by fit. I didn't mean "fitting in", or that you wouldn't be able to appear professional to others. I'm sure you can.

I was talking about whether you would want to work with people who would judge you, if they knew about your history. For me, that's a clash of values. I wouldn't want to work long hours with people who would judge me for sex work. I want to work with people who would be accepting of that. As alluded to, I've worked with people who didn't share my values before, and I found it to be taxing. I'm a sole now, but I'm surrounded by colleagues who I'm on the same page with. I find that to be enormously helpful. 

It's up to you whether that kind of fit is important to you. I'm just saying that it was to me, and that it's something to think about. 

Thank you! Sorry that I misunderstood. I feel like I already deal with that in every day life, like obviously my classmates don't only what I do and as a poli sci major, discussions of sex work have come up and I had to grit my teeth and try to count misconceptions without outting myself. But you're right that it can be taxing, I find conservatives exhausting because they think so differently than me. I've learned how to handle that well in my current career but obviously 1 conservative person for a few hours at a time a couple times a month is quite different than several conservative people every day haha

[CleanHands]

For what it's worth:

A friend of mine is a lawyer, worked in HR before going to law school, and is a genius at navigating recruitment and selection processes. She assisted a law student in preparing application materials for law jobs. Said law student was a former sex worker. My friend advised the student to disclose their past sex work in their resume and cover letter in an application to a provincial Crown prosecution service, and the student was interviewed and hired there.

I don't know anything at all about BigLaw (but I echo the sentiments that the OP doesn't want that career and shouldn't bother pursuing it). But it is evident to me that times are changing, and if a former sex worker can get hired with the Crown that suggests to me that such a history wouldn't eviscerate one's options.

[bocuma]

22 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

if a former sex worker can get hired with the Crown that suggests to me that such a history wouldn't eviscerate one's options.

On that note, government is one place where the hiring procedures seem to be so strict and regimented that you wouldn't be at a disadvantage based on having done sex work in the past. The problem I see is getting into a more traditional "conversational" style interview and then having a firm not be able to disabuse themselves of unfair stereotypes about someone that has done sex work, all while they try to assess "fit" which is really just them figuring out whether or not they like someone. But like @realpseudonym said above, maybe you don't want to work for a firm that has those views. I've also heard stories about students disclosing that they do erotic dancing as a hobby and it working out really well for them in an interview just because it's so interesting. So who knows!

I think a lot of this also depends on what the nature of the work was. Was it once a week while you were in school? Or was this your full time job for a few years? A big resume gap is difficult to explain away, whereas if this was just a side-show OP had, omitting it from a resume wouldn't necessarily raise eyebrows. I'm not sure of the ethical implications of leaving something off a resume, but personally I feel like the point of a resume is to display your skills for the job. If you leave something off because it wouldn't be relevant, that's your decision. I have things that are incidentally not on my resume because they're small things that aren't super important. If you feel that way about the sex work you've done, just don't put it on the resume.

Edited March 29, 2022 by bocuma

[CleanHands]

2 minutes ago, bocuma said:

On that note, government is one place where the hiring procedures seem to be so strict and regimented that you wouldn't be at a disadvantage based on having done sex work in the past.

This does not mean that you can write whatever you want on a resume and cover letter and it will be fine as long as you can pass the tests. Someone made a conscious choice to let the applicant get their foot in the door, knowing what was contained in those documents. This says something about changing attitudes towards this and shouldn't be so easily discounted.

As for the rest of what you wrote, I agree that given the OP's interest in "public interest" work and their background, they shouldn't be applying to places that have a problem with this anyways. BigLaw fever strikes again...although I guess if I was used to making high end sex worker money I'd have had far more trouble adjusting to my shit government articling salary after 7 years of post-secondary education.

[Diplock]

1 hour ago, Glamurosa said:

I'm obviously going to do more research, but I think there is a component of actually needing to sit the classes to see what compels you. My first degree I got a decade ago was one where there was about 3 traditional career paths and a handful of other less common choices. I went in wanting to be the main one of those 3, and ended up preferring one of the less common options. I knew it in my first semester. So I am coming from a place of experience when I consider that my initial choice might not be the most "me" choice.

As for the fitting in comments a few have made. No one who's ever met me would guess I'm an escort, I do not cong across like the general populations misconceptions of who and what escorts are. I have zero doubt I can fit in in a professional environment, I did it before, and I do it now. It's not average people who can pay thousands of dollars for an overnight date. Many of my clients seek me out because of how professional, well spoken and put together I come off as. There's a reason they pick up on this through my marketing, it's partially by design, but it is also because its the truth. 

I think everyone has secrets, and mine probably needs to remain that way not because it says anything about me but because others think it does. The challenge is keeping it a secret. 

You've been reasonable here, so I'm not going to keep beating this horse if you've gotten what you needed to already. But exactly because I'm engaged with hoping to assist you at this point, I'd really urge you to consider this.

You seem to be invested in the topic of whether or not you can fit into a "biglaw" environment and fake it convincingly. And I don't actually doubt that you can - or at least you're as likely to be able to as anyone else. I'm not suggesting you're some kind of hooker lacking in social graces appropriate to professional settings like some kind of Julia Roberts turned lawyer (Pretty Woman reference - for those too young for it). I'm just saying that based on your choices to date, and based on your own stated interest in public interest type work, you probably won't end up wanting to be there. Which is a totally separate question from whether or not you could fake it if you wanted to.

This is a common issue. It's a warning that many students need - not just the ones who happened to at some point work in the sex trade. You're going to convince yourself it's the thing to aim for just because it's the thing to aim for. Maybe in some convoluted way it will relate back to your past and you'll want to explicitly prove you can do it just to show your past doesn't limit you. But just because you can do something doesn't mean you should be. If it's not where you really belong, at some point you'll hit a wall. And you may even hit that wall harder than others (again, this is a bit of speculation here) because if you invest your identity into it as though you're out to prove you're not just some sex trade worker and then you fail at it...does that prove you are just some sex trade worker? That issue may be a bit speculative, but in the back of my mind the specter of Wendy Babcock is lurking, and I'd hate for you to live that story again. It's not really the same thing, but it's bothering me.

My point is, please consider the warning. If you end up deciding that you really do what to spend the most effective years of your career making sure some corporation pays the least amount of tax possible, and if you derive satisfaction from that, more power to you. (Also, fill in some joke about being a corporate whore - just 'cause). But almost anyone I've ever met with a real sense of the "alternative" about them would rather cut their own nose off than spend a couple decades doing that.

Anyway, I've beat that one to death. I do wish you good luck.

[GGrievous]

I have no advice but I just want to say you ought to be ashamed of yourself. How can you want to do something so morally deplorable as big law 😋

 

 

[Glamurosa]

20 minutes ago, Diplock said:

You've been reasonable here, so I'm not going to keep beating this horse if you've gotten what you needed to already. But exactly because I'm engaged with hoping to assist you at this point, I'd really urge you to consider this.

You seem to be invested in the topic of whether or not you can fit into a "biglaw" environment and fake it convincingly. And I don't actually doubt that you can - or at least you're as likely to be able to as anyone else. I'm not suggesting you're some kind of hooker lacking in social graces appropriate to professional settings like some kind of Julia Roberts turned lawyer (Pretty Woman reference - for those too young for it). I'm just saying that based on your choices to date, and based on your own stated interest in public interest type work, you probably won't end up wanting to be there. Which is a totally separate question from whether or not you could fake it if you wanted to.

This is a common issue. It's a warning that many students need - not just the ones who happened to at some point work in the sex trade. You're going to convince yourself it's the thing to aim for just because it's the thing to aim for. Maybe in some convoluted way it will relate back to your past and you'll want to explicitly prove you can do it just to show your past doesn't limit you. But just because you can do something doesn't mean you should be. If it's not where you really belong, at some point you'll hit a wall. And you may even hit that wall harder than others (again, this is a bit of speculation here) because if you invest your identity into it as though you're out to prove you're not just some sex trade worker and then you fail at it...does that prove you are just some sex trade worker? That issue may be a bit speculative, but in the back of my mind the specter of Wendy Babcock is lurking, and I'd hate for you to live that story again. It's not really the same thing, but it's bothering me.

My point is, please consider the warning. If you end up deciding that you really do what to spend the most effective years of your career making sure some corporation pays the least amount of tax possible, and if you derive satisfaction from that, more power to you. (Also, fill in some joke about being a corporate whore - just 'cause). But almost anyone I've ever met with a real sense of the "alternative" about them would rather cut their own nose off than spend a couple decades doing that.

Anyway, I've beat that one to death. I do wish you good luck.

There goes my Elle Woods x Vivian Ward branding 😤 lol

And for the record, I really appreciate the advice. Obviously I don't want to end up in a job I hate after spending 7 years in school in my 30s. I'm sure I'll have more of a sense of what interests me at some point in my first year. There's probably a whole field of possibilities that I never even thought of to begin with that I will be exposed to. Maybe I'll have some new found appreciation for the CCDC that I didn't a decade ago and go into construction law 🤓.

Finally, Wendy Babcock was a tragedy, while our early life stories do have some parallels, I've never had substance abuse issues or suicidal tendencies, thank God. I'm more liable to eat myself into a comma if I'm on the verge of flunking out than to actually hurting myself. But I appreciate the concern, honestly 🙂

[Lawyerup36]

7 hours ago, Glamurosa said:

Hihi,

I was wondering if anyone here knows much about whether having previously done sex work/escorting would basically make it impossible to get a job in "big law". In theory I do want to eventually do public interest type stuff, but in reality I'm going to have a shit load of debt to pay off. But, the fact that I am a sex worker might become public knowledge soon if my injury claim (I'm the plaintiff) goes to court. So I'm concerned about doors closing. Wild speculation based on your own moral values is not welcome, but if anyone has any inside perspective on this, that would be great. 

If it matters at all, I'm accepted to osgoode for this coming school year, disclosed my profession on my application, I got a 169 lsat and a 3.6cgpa,  3.93 last 2.

 

I have no intent on a moral or philosophical argument, I don’t think it’s necessary. I can only give you an opinion, and believe me I’m not a sugar coating kinda person so what I’m about to say is not to straddle any ego or give you false hope, but a realistic perspective. First, the work you are doing is legal and it’s work. You are not engaging in prostitution or have been arrested for solicitation. You are employed, you are earning a living, and it’s legal. Second, you disclosed to a fairly prestigious school what your employment entails, and they still let you in. Third, it would be your choice to disclose to a firm about such employment, a properly run escort agency has the same privacy laws as other employment, unless you disclose, they have no way of knowing. Fourth, as previously stated, I would request(it can’t hurt) for your name to be omitted from record to protect yourself and future possibilities(this is not typically difficult to achieve when warranted). Finally, stop being ashamed of how you kept a roof over your head and food in your fridge! Your stats are remarkable, and your a perfect example of how one thing doesn’t define a person. Follow your goal, have confidence in yourself, and take that real life experience and do something great! Good luck! 

[Glamurosa]

38 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

..although I guess if I was used to making high end sex worker money I'd have had far more trouble adjusting to my shit government articling salary after 7 years of post-secondary education.

My issue is that people are going to see what I really look like when I can no longer write off my nails, pedi, waxing, botox, fillers, eyelashes, makeup and skin care. 

[CleanHands]

Just now, Glamurosa said:

My issue is that people are going to see what I really look like when I can no longer write off my nails, pedi, waxing, botox, fillers, eyelashes, makeup and skin care. 

Ah, well I have always looked like shit so I guess that's a factor where you're the one who needs to do the adjusting and we're even.

[Glamurosa]

9 minutes ago, Barry said:

I have no advice but I just want to say you ought to be ashamed of yourself. How can you want to do something so morally deplorable as big law 😋

 

 

The student loan debt 🤧🤧🤧

[Glamurosa]

3 minutes ago, Lawyerup36 said:

I have no intent on a moral or philosophical argument, I don’t think it’s necessary. I can only give you an opinion, and believe me I’m not a sugar coating kinda person so what I’m about to say is not to straddle any ego or give you false hope, but a realistic perspective. First, the work you are doing is legal and it’s work. You are not engaging in prostitution or have been arrested for solicitation. You are employed, you are earning a living, and it’s legal. Second, you disclosed to a fairly prestigious school what your employment entails, and they still let you in. Third, it would be your choice to disclose to a firm about such employment, a properly run escort agency has the same privacy laws as other employment, unless you disclose, they have no way of knowing. Fourth, as previously stated, I would request(it can’t hurt) for your name to be omitted from record to protect yourself and future possibilities(this is not typically difficult to achieve when warranted). Finally, stop being ashamed of how you kept a roof over your head and food in your fridge! Your stats are remarkable, and your a perfect example of how one thing doesn’t define a person. Follow your goal, have confidence in yourself, and take that real life experience and do something great! Good luck! 

Thank you! I actually am self employed, I don't work for an agency, though I'm considering it while I'm in school because the admin work/marketing/advertising is like, 80% of what I do 💀.

Osgoode is known for having a spot for sex workers, look up Wendy Babcock if you don't know of her. Alan Young, an ex professor at osgoode, represented Bedford, Lebovitch and Scott in Bedford v Canada. But I still had impeccable marks, that I honestly didn't work that hard for, so I'm sure I'll do fine in law school. I don't intend to disclose, but I'm not ashamed of my work. I've met some amazing people and helped others through some seriously difficult times, my work isn't easy but it's rewarding and I'm very privileged to be in the area of it that I'm in. 

[Lawyerup36]

1 minute ago, Glamurosa said:

Thank you! I actually am self employed, I don't work for an agency, though I'm considering it while I'm in school because the admin work/marketing/advertising is like, 80% of what I do 💀.

Osgoode is known for having a spot for sex workers, look up Wendy Babcock if you don't know of her. Alan Young, an ex professor at osgoode, represented Bedford, Lebovitch and Scott in Bedford v Canada. But I still had impeccable marks, that I honestly didn't work that hard for, so I'm sure I'll do fine in law school. I don't intend to disclose, but I'm not ashamed of my work. I've met some amazing people and helped others through some seriously difficult times, my work isn't easy but it's rewarding and I'm very privileged to be in the area of it that I'm in. 

I’m aware of the cases above, but that should also tell you regardless of a soft spot or not, attitudes toward sex work have evolved and I do not think it will hinder you at all, but instead make you unique. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

2 hours ago, Lawyerup36 said:

I’m aware of the cases above, but that should also tell you regardless of a soft spot or not, attitudes toward sex work have evolved and I do not think it will hinder you at all, but instead make you unique. 

This is just objectively incorrect and to the extent it can be viewed as advice, it is down right negligent advice. Just because you personally have “evolved” views doesn’t mean everyone else does. 

[Lawyerup36]

3 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

This is just objectively incorrect and to the extent it can be viewed as advice, it is down right negligent advice. Just because you personally have “evolved” views doesn’t mean everyone else does. 

It’s not advice, my original post stated mere opinion and opinion only. 

Just now, Lawyerup36 said:

It’s not advice, my original post stated mere opinion and opinion only. 

And evolving doesn’t mean that struggles aren’t still there, nor does it mean that acceptance of it is there. That’s not how the world works. As she quoted the cases and profs I merely stated(and repeatedly) that ultimately she got in, she isn’t doing anything illegal, she has the stats, and can offer a unique perspective. Nowhere did I give advice, I simply encouraged to not be ashamed of how you got where you are and to pursue what she wants. But nowhere did I say that it would be smooth sailing or she wouldn’t come across barriers. Chill dude. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

12 minutes ago, Lawyerup36 said:

And evolving doesn’t mean that struggles aren’t still there, nor does it mean that acceptance of it is there. That’s not how the world works. As she quoted the cases and profs I merely stated(and repeatedly) that ultimately she got in, she isn’t doing anything illegal, she has the stats, and can offer a unique perspective. Nowhere did I give advice, I simply encouraged to not be ashamed of how you got where you are and to pursue what she wants. But nowhere did I say that it would be smooth sailing or she wouldn’t come across barriers. Chill dude. 

If when you said “attitudes toward sex work have evolved and I do not think it will hinder you at all” you actually meant “attitudes towards sex work are slowly evolving and you will likely face barriers as a result of your past work”, then we’re in complete agreement. 

Sugar coating your comments (or just saying nonsensical things like “you’re not engaging in prostitution”) isn’t helpful for OP. OP seems smart enough to ignore obviously bad advice and opinions, but still. If you want to show kindness and compassion, there are ways to do so that do not involve providing objectively wrong opinions. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by BlockedQuebecois

[CheeseToast]

7 hours ago, Rashabon said:

A lot? Junior associates go to events (at least pre-COVID) very frequently and if you work for people that aren't shitty, they are going to invite you to opportunities to network, even as a junior. There are also opportunities to schmooze at junior lawyer networking events, CBA groups, etc. And "schmooze" is a broad term. Your ability to charm and and interact with clients and have them like you is a big part in getting early confidence from other partners and having them keep you involved in files.

Also as a junior associate, a lot of your clients are actually the senior partners you work for, directly and indirectly, and being able to schmooze them is still a skill.

No, as a junior, you're not expected to land million dollar files by going to a wine and cheese event and talking some CLO's or CEO's ear off, but to think that you're just hunkered down in an office writing memos for three years is even more of a ludicrous fantasy.

That's fair. I suppose we have very different ideas of schmoozing. I was thinking golfing, sports events, vegas weekends, etc. Don't think many junior associates are doing that with clients. 

[Jaggers]

I did golfing, sports events and conferences in my five years. I never made it to Vegas, but NY, San Francisco, Miami, etc.

[CheeseToast]

5 minutes ago, Jaggers said:

I did golfing, sports events and conferences in my five years. I never made it to Vegas, but NY, San Francisco, Miami, etc.

Damn, sounds like I'm in for a good time assuming I get hired back, COVID hasn't changed all that, and big firm environments in calgary are anything like TO.  

Edited March 30, 2022 by CheeseToast

[Rashabon]

9 minutes ago, CheeseToast said:

That's fair. I suppose we have very different ideas of schmoozing. I was thinking golfing, sports events, vegas weekends, etc. Don't think many junior associates are doing that with clients. 

I mean yes, they are. Mostly sports events because those can be attended in a box as a group. I have one client where we go to a Leafs game in a box every year and we always invite the juniors on the file. It's rare for anyone to be doing Vegas weekends, junior or senior, and golfing is not as common these days as say, 20 years ago. Stop watching Suits or whatever. This isn't how things happen in the real world.

[Jaggers]

To be fair, the conferences I got sent to were not schmoozing with clients and spending our nights eating lavish dinners and gambling in Vegas. They were usually industry conferences where you would meet other lawyers, with the hope that when they had a client with an issue in Canada, they'd farm it out to you. It worked on a few occasions, too. But you would still get sent to the US for a few days, often Thursday/Friday, and your partner could fly in on the weekend and extend the trip with you. And we did eat some nice dinners.

[Rashabon]

6 minutes ago, Jaggers said:

To be fair, the conferences I got sent to were not schmoozing with clients and spending our nights eating lavish dinners and gambling in Vegas. They were usually industry conferences where you would meet other lawyers, with the hope that when they had a client with an issue in Canada, they'd farm it out to you. It worked on a few occasions, too. But you would still get sent to the US for a few days, often Thursday/Friday, and your partner could fly in on the weekend and extend the trip with you. And we did eat some nice dinners.

Yeah, depends on the conference. I have in the past gone to PDAC though I skipped it more often than not, and likewise have gone to CIBCWM's end of year real estate conference. Mostly as a junior since the last two years have wiped out conferences and I am not attending these things virtually.

One year PDAC was fun since I was tagging along with a partner that wanted to say hi to various bankers, all of whom were holding different parties so we ran around the city bouncing into different events for a half hour to an hour saying hi to people.

[CheeseToast]

 

28 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

I have one client where we go to a Leafs game in a box every year and we always invite the juniors on the file. It's rare for anyone to be doing Vegas weekends, junior or senior, and golfing is not as common these days as say, 20 years ago. Stop watching Suits or whatever. This isn't how things happen in the real world.

Ok. So juniors maybe go to one game a year, wow, lots of schmoozing. Golfing is plenty common out west among too. Doesn't sound like there's lots of schmoozing for juniors, as I originally stated. No need to be such a contrarian 24/7 my guy. 

[Rashabon]

Alright, suit yourself. For anyone else reading, reminder that I'm actually a lawyer and have been in big law for years and this guy is a law student with less than zero experience, so believe who you want about the frequency of meeting with and interacting with clients as a junior.