FAQ on "Bay St Firms"

[KOMODO]

3 minutes ago, jawnlegend said:

I won't be starting 1L until August so forgive me if this a question that gets answered in due course during the hiring process. 

Do the OCI firms hire students into practice areas (ie: I apply to summer for a firm's commercial real estate team or are you assigned to a group after you are hired? If the latter is the case, how much control does one have over this selection (both as a student and new call)? Should you have practice areas in mind when you're interviewing or is it okay to admit to the recruiter that while you're interested in corporate work with institutional clients, you're uncertain about what kind of law you want to practice? How do rotations work? 

It depends on the firm. Some have a general pool of students that any lawyer can use and others place students in rotations. Generally firms will not hire specific students thinking that they'll be placed in specific rotations, but sometimes we try not to hire a class that entirely consists of people who want to work in the same department (so if the top 10 candidates all want corporate and number 11 is interested in litigation, we might be tempted to hire #11 even if we only had 10 spots). That said, sometimes we just decide that it doesn't matter, because so many students change their minds once they start working (I am an example - when I was hired, I definitely wanted litigation, but ended up preferring real estate. About half my class switched their area of interest after they worked the summer).

Absolutely it's okay to admit you don't know what you want to do, as long as you're interviewing for a student position at a full service firm. Keep in mind though that you're not speaking with recruiters - lawyers are interviewing you - so it helps to seem interested in their practice area while being honest that you're open to various departments. 

Either way, once you're hired, the firm (if it has a rotation system) will ask you to rank your preferred departments and then they'll try to match students with their preferences, while meeting the departments' needs. Most of the time they won't remember or care if you said you were interested in corporate work and then select the employment group as your #1 rotation preference. Sometimes they will also give you the option of going on secondments in lieu of a rotation. 

As a new call, i.e. you already articled, the picture is quite different and I think people will expect you to know what you want to do (at least in a general sense). 

[BlockedQuebecois]

@KOMODO's advice is spot on. The only thing I would add is that if you're interested in a more niche practice area—usually tax, real estate, competition, environmental, etc., though it will vary by firm—it's helpful to have that figured out by the time you start your summer. Those groups tend to be smaller, and thus might not hire students every year or might only hire a single student. In contrast, most corporate and litigation groups will be looking to add multiple new associates every year. 

By knowing you have a strong interest in that group by the start of your summer, you can make working in that group a priority early on. That gets your name out there in the group and tells them you're serious about working with them. If you do good work, those lawyers will remember you when you come back for articles, and they will be more likely to funnel work to you compared to students who have a newfound interest at the start of articles. When it comes time for hireback, you've been doing a ton of good work for them, and they've known you're interested for two years (and thus have had lots of time to figure out if they can take you on). 

None of that is to say you can't get hired into those groups if you develop your interest during 3L, or even during articles, but it's definitely an advantage. 

[KOMODO]

3 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

@KOMODO's advice is spot on. The only thing I would add is that if you're interested in a more niche practice area—usually tax, real estate, competition, environmental, etc., though it will vary by firm—it's helpful to have that figured out by the time you start your summer. Those groups tend to be smaller, and thus might not hire students every year or might only hire a single student. In contrast, most corporate and litigation groups will be looking to add multiple new associates every year. 

By knowing you have a strong interest in that group by the start of your summer, you can make working in that group a priority early on. That gets your name out there in the group and tells them you're serious about working with them. If you do good work, those lawyers will remember you when you come back for articles, and they will be more likely to funnel work to you compared to students who have a newfound interest at the start of articles. When it comes time for hireback, you've been doing a ton of good work for them, and they've known you're interested for two years (and thus have had lots of time to figure out if they can take you on). 

None of that is to say you can't get hired into those groups if you develop your interest during 3L, or even during articles, but it's definitely an advantage. 

Do you mean by the end of summer / beginning of articles? It's hard to know that you're interested in one of those specialty areas until you work with lawyers who do that thing. I hated property law and never thought I would like real estate, but once I had a chance to sit in on a few client meetings and draft some documents as a summer student, I realized the practice of commercial real estate had nothing to do with any of my classes in law school. So I don't think students should worry about knowing that they want a specific group before they start working / at the beginning of the summer - their 1L or 2L summer is the time to figure that out. Then in articling hopefully people have a slightly better idea and can angle for the work that will get them noticed/hired back as associates.

[BlockedQuebecois]

3 minutes ago, KOMODO said:

Do you mean by the end of summer / beginning of articles? It's hard to know that you're interested in one of those specialty areas until you work with lawyers who do that thing. I hated property law and never thought I would like real estate, but once I had a chance to sit in on a few client meetings and draft some documents as a summer student, I realized the practice of commercial real estate had nothing to do with any of my classes in law school. So I don't think students should worry about knowing that they want a specific group before they start working / at the beginning of the summer - their 1L or 2L summer is the time to figure that out. Then in articling hopefully people have a slightly better idea and can angle for the work that will get them noticed/hired back as associates.

I think it’s helpful to know you’re interested at the start of the summer, so you can try to work with that group and decide whether to push for it while articling. But you’re right that students don’t need to be sure they want to practice [insert niche area] before they start, my apologies if my post gave that impression. 

I think it’s helpful to know you’re interested because for those more niche groups it’s generally pretty easy to go the entire summer without doing any work for the group. Of course, this varies between firms based on the size of the groups, the rotation system, and the work allocation system. 

I think the ideal route to those more niche areas is to know you’re interested at the start of your summer, do work in the group, decide you want to join the group during 3L/before your firm canvasses you about your rotations for articles, and then really focus on the group while you’re articling. But this is just from observation of my peers—I have no direct experience getting hired into a niche practice area.

And of course, not everybody will follow the ideal route. I know people who rotated into a group in the back half of their articles, loved it, and managed to get hired back into that group. 

[PePeHalpert]

15 hours ago, jawnlegend said:

I won't be starting 1L until August so forgive me if this a question that gets answered in due course during the hiring process. 

Do the OCI firms hire students into practice areas (ie: I apply to summer for a firm's commercial real estate team or are you assigned to a group after you are hired? If the latter is the case, how much control does one have over this selection (both as a student and new call)? Should you have practice areas in mind when you're interviewing or is it okay to admit to the recruiter that while you're interested in corporate work with institutional clients, you're uncertain about what kind of law you want to practice? How do rotations work? 

No you are not typically hired into a practice area in the summer. Most full service firms set up their summer and articling program to give students an opportunity to rotate through each of the practice groups so they can make an informed decision about where they want to practice.  It varies from firm to firm, but most have some set requirements for rotations (i.e. must do a rotation in each of X,Y,Z group) but also allow some flexibility for students to spend longer periods of time in the practice group of their choosing.  At the end of articling, students express interest in the practice group of their choice, and if it is a fit, they are hired into that group.

If you have a genuine interest in a practice area already, express that during interviews.  Its also totally fine to say that you don't know yet and want an opportunity to try out a few areas.  

[Forever Curious]

17 hours ago, jawnlegend said:

I won't be starting 1L until August so forgive me if this a question that gets answered in due course during the hiring process. 

Do the OCI firms hire students into practice areas (ie: I apply to summer for a firm's commercial real estate team or are you assigned to a group after you are hired? If the latter is the case, how much control does one have over this selection (both as a student and new call)? Should you have practice areas in mind when you're interviewing or is it okay to admit to the recruiter that while you're interested in corporate work with institutional clients, you're uncertain about what kind of law you want to practice? How do rotations work? 

.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Forever Curious

[Rashabon]

Some firms also don't have the same practice areas as others. A good example is that some have a "Business Law" group that has lawyers working in different sub specialties but as a student or junior you might get a variety of work, while others actually split those practices apart.

[johnny.rahmbo]

i noticed stikes (Toronto) isnt on NALP - anyone know the summer student salary? 

[Squirtle]

2 hours ago, johnny.rahmbo said:

i noticed stikes (Toronto) isnt on NALP - anyone know the summer student salary? 

I believe it's close or matched with McCarthy's -- ballpark 1700-1900 per week.

[QueensGrad]

On 7/27/2021 at 10:25 AM, johnny.rahmbo said:

i noticed stikes (Toronto) isnt on NALP - anyone know the summer student salary? 

Stikes is $1900/week. I am only aware of one firm of the nationals that doesn't pay $1900/week in Toronto - being Fasken at $1800/week

[BlockedQuebecois]

1 hour ago, QueensGrad said:

Stikes is $1900/week. I am only aware of one firm of the nationals that doesn't pay $1900/week in Toronto - being Fasken at $1800/week

Davies is at $2,000 for summers and $2,250 for articling. I thought BJs was higher, too, but apparently that's only for first-year associates. 

NRF is at $1,700, per NALP at least. They were also one of the firms that cut student pay during the pandemic, if I recall correctly, so maybe they just never returned it to pre-pandemic levels. 

I assume its an error, but Miller Thomson say they only pay ~$1,680/week for articling students after paying $1,900/week to summers. If that's not an accident and they actually cut their students pay, that's hilarious and nobody should ever work there. 

Edited August 19, 2021 by BlockedQuebecois

[QueensGrad]

5 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Davies is at $2,000 for summers and $2,250 for articling. I thought BJs was higher, too, but apparently that's only for first-year associates. 

NRF is at $1,700, per NALP at least. They were also one of the firms that cut student pay during the pandemic, if I recall correctly, so maybe they just never returned it to pre-pandemic levels. 

I assume its an error, but Miller Thomson say they only pay ~$1,680/week for articling students after paying $1,900/week to summers. If that's not an accident and they actually cut their students pay, that's hilarious and nobody should ever work there. 

Sorry, I should have said “at least $1900/week”. I also think Miller Thomson is an error but I don’t know for certain. And you’re right, I forgot about NRF which I can confirm is $1700 at least based on the last I heard.

[spinelli]

On 8/19/2021 at 5:51 PM, QueensGrad said:

Stikes is $1900/week. I am only aware of one firm of the nationals that doesn't pay $1900/week in Toronto - being Fasken at $1800/week

Does anyone know why Fasken pays their students less? Seems weird to not keep rates competitive unless of course student responsibilities are notably reduced in comparison to other similar firms?

[BlockedQuebecois]

Presumably because they don’t think they need to pay $1900 to attract the type of talent they want to attract.

They’re not working their students any less hard than the $1900/week firms. 

[cherrytree]

58 minutes ago, spinelli said:

Does anyone know why Fasken pays their students less? Seems weird to not keep rates competitive unless of course student responsibilities are notably reduced in comparison to other similar firms?

From what I've heard, they pay a lower rate but their articling students will get paid for 2 additional month so they end up getting a full year's pay for 10 months' work

[BlockedQuebecois]

If Fasken is giving their students an additional $14,400 on top of their salary, they do a very bad job of telling people about it (and you would think they would, because it puts them closer to Davies-level compensation than the 1900/week firms. 

I do think they still pay their students the bar study stipend, which cuts the losses to about $2000 over the course of a summer + articling, but I don’t think it’s two months pay. 

Edited October 12, 2021 by BlockedQuebecois

[Lifeisgood]

I don’t have any backgrounds on business, corporation, securities …related knowledge, will big firms (full service) hire me or will I survive if I have the chance to work in there?

[SlytherinLLP]

6 hours ago, Lifeisgood said:

I don’t have any backgrounds on business, corporation, securities …related knowledge, will big firms (full service) hire me or will I survive if I have the chance to work in there?

If you have a competitive application package, are someone they see themselves working with and show interest in that area of law your lack of business or finance background won't hold you back. 

You will learn everything on the job.

[Lifeisgood]

On 6/7/2021 at 10:28 AM, QueensGrad said:

 

 

Q8: How much do Bay St firms pay students?

A:  The market rate is $1900/week for summer students and articling students. Some firms pay $1700-$1800/week, while Davies pays $2,000/week for summer students and $2,250/week for articling students (additionally, most firms cover bar exam and licensing fees). Note that some firms do or do not pay signing bonuses and/or tuition bonuses to returning articling students. Some firms give December bonuses. This past year, many firms gave out a $5K one-time bonus to articling students. You can find out more

How much is the pay for 2L summer student in personal injury and labor and employment firms?

[MapleLeafs]

46 minutes ago, Lifeisgood said:

How much is the pay for 2L summer student in personal injury and labor and employment firms?

Varies from firm to firm. I've heard of L/E firms in Toronto paying 1000/week, and there's firms like Hicks who pay the same as Bay St firms. 

Edited November 4, 2021 by MapleLeafs

[Pecan Boy]

3 minutes ago, MapleLeafs said:

Varies from firm to firm. I've heard of L/E firms in Toronto paying 1000/week, and there's firms like Hicks who pay the same as Bay St firms. 

I also know that some of the bigger union-side shops pay ~1500-1600 per week

[lawstudent1]

Does anyone have a record of the firm ranking from lawstudents.ca? Just curious about it since I've seen more than one person refer to it on this site.

[Pantalaimon]

1 hour ago, lawstudent1 said:

Does anyone have a record of the firm ranking from lawstudents.ca? Just curious about it since I've seen more than one person refer to it on this site.

I wish. It was quite amusing.

[Jaggers]

It was basically just a list of the firms that the poster had worked at, followed by a list of the firms where he liked the people he dealt with, and finally a list of the firms that had people he didn't like.

[CleanHands]

3 minutes ago, Jaggers said:

It was basically just a list of the firms that the poster had worked at, followed by a list of the firms where he liked the people he dealt with, and finally a list of the firms that had people he didn't like.

Gotta love that to this day, every 5 minutes some applicant or student will ask for it as if it's authoritative, though.