FAQ on "Bay St Firms"

[easttowest]

2 minutes ago, DonCorleone said:

Oh my god BQ I try to spread some positivity and you hit me with this. That’s the last time I try that. Vietnam flashbacks to lawstudents.ca. 

What good is positivity if it is misplaced.

It is fine to tell people who want to work in BigLaw that getting a job at any BigLaw firm is better than not getting one. Apart from the questionable goal, that seems fairly unobjectionable. 

It is inaccurate to say that once within BigLaw, it does not matter where you are and you will being doing the same kind of work.

I don’t give a care, at all, about prestige. There are just some firms I would never, ever, leave my firm to go to for reasons including: I won’t get the same kind of work, I won’t make as much money, and I happen to really like my group. 

[DonCorleone]

2 minutes ago, easttowest said:

What good is positivity if it is misplaced.

I wouldn’t say it’s misplaced at all. I guess I’m a little more big picture than most people having struck out on business school recruits before and seeing some of my closest friends strike out during the 2L Toronto recruit. I think it’s unbecoming to sit on a forum and nitpick, and to some degree, disparage certain firms because you work at Davies/Blakes, especially after a lot of people who just struck out would’ve loved to work at any of these firms, all of which are more than fine in my opinion.

In my conversations with partners at sister firms and equivalents, international firms like Dentons have come up and even the most critical of comments were nothing like I’m seeing here. So if we are going to talk about being misguiding, I think that’s a far more salient point to be made. For the record, I know people who work at Dentons (Deans Listers, CPAs, JD/MBAs) who are IMO talented enough to work anywhere else. It’s just where they ended up. 

Congrats to everyone who landed a job during the recruit, whether it was at Wildeboer, Davies, Dentons, Chaitons or Gardiner Roberts. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

The fact that partners at a sister firm are willing make critical comments about Dentons to a 2L student that just got an OCI job is telling in and of itself. If those are the comments they're making to someone who they have no reason to trust won't go spouting off to all their classmates, think about what their actual opinion of the firm is. 

I have no clue why you think watching people strike out on recruits makes you more "big picture", but considering you're talking to a bunch of people who also watched people strike out on recruits, I assure you you are not. 

[SlytherinLLP]

9 minutes ago, DonCorleone said:

I wouldn’t say it’s misplaced at all. I guess I’m a little more big picture than most people having struck out on business school recruits before and seeing some of my closest friends strike out during the 2L Toronto recruit. I think it’s unbecoming to sit on a forum and nitpick, and to some degree, disparage certain firms because you work at Davies/Blakes, especially after a lot of people who just struck out would’ve loved to work at any of these firms, all of which are more than fine in my opinion.

In my conversations with partners at sister firms and equivalents, international firms like Dentons have come up and even the most critical of comments were nothing like I’m seeing here. So if we are going to talk about being misguiding, I think that’s a far more salient point to be made. For the record, I know people who work at Dentons (Deans Listers, CPAs, JD/MBAs) who are IMO talented enough to work anywhere else. It’s just where they ended up. 

Congrats to everyone who landed a job during the recruit, whether it was at Wildeboer, Davies, Dentons, Chaitons or Gardiner Roberts. 

I read @BlockedQuebecois's posts and I fail to find anything disparaging individual lawyers at Dentons or discouraging students intending to work there.

I think its better that we ensure this website provides accurate information regarding the type and nature of the work at any firm whether Dentons or Wildeboer. Your assertions were misleading and you were rightly called on it. I don't think any judgement was passed on the quality of the lawyers or the work they do. 

Rebuttals/corrections does not equal negativity I'm afraid.

Edited November 15, 2021 by SlytherinLLP

[WhoKnows]

14 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I have no clue why you think watching people strike out on recruits makes you more "big picture", but considering you're talking to a bunch of people who also watched people strike out on recruits, I assure you you are not. 

They are also talking to some folks who actually did strike out on the 2L recruit...I'd say that gave me a bit more of a big picture view.

Edited November 15, 2021 by WhoKnows

[easttowest]

19 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

The fact that partners at a sister firm are willing make critical comments about Dentons to a 2L student that just got an OCI job is telling in and of itself. If those are the comments they're making to someone who they have no reason to trust won't go spouting off to all their classmates, think about what their actual opinion of the firm is.  

On the one hand this is compelling but then immediately on the other I remember how prone some partners can be to saying whatever is on their mind regardless of audience. 

[CleanHands]

22 minutes ago, DonCorleone said:

-Snip-

I get the impression there's not that much actual disagreement here, just different foci.

I like @BlockedQuebecois but everyone should keep in mind that he was a top student and is a top junior lawyer talent who has the luxury of working wherever he wants. So he will be paying attention to marginal differences between firms because any of them would be happy to court him and he has decisions to make. For someone like him this does matter and that makes sense.

Most people aren't in that position though, and marginal differences aren't really worth sweating about for most. And you are right that these are pretty much all pretty good jobs (if that's the kind of work you're into) and for most it's not a productive use of mental energy to think about where the grass might be a slight shade greener and it's probably better to tune that stuff out.

[DonCorleone]

28 minutes ago, SlytherinLLP said:

I read @BlockedQuebecois's posts and I fail to find anything disparaging individual lawyers at Dentons or discouraging students intending to work there.

I think its better that we ensure this website provides accurate information regarding the type and nature of the work at any firm whether Dentons or Wildeboer. Your assertions were misleading and you were rightly called on it. I don't think any judgement was passed on the quality of the lawyers or the work they do. 

Rebuttals/corrections does not equal negativity I'm afraid.

 

From another thread:

“Western (6) narrowly edges out Ryerson, but it comes at the cost of making three students work at Dentons.” -BQ
 

I don’t think my comments were as “misleading” as you’re making it seem. Partially inaccurate? Maybe. Forgive me for not being a multiple year call on a forum for law students.
 

I know people at midsizes or “less prestigious” firms who routinely work opposite of Davies/Blakes on deals. Obviously the work you do from firm to firm varies in nature and sophistication, but to what degree? And how much does that matter to someone who’d be happy with any firm in a competitive process where over 70% of people strike out?

This is a useless argument either way. I don’t see the value in arguing whether or not it’s right to be a snobbish elitist re firm prestige on a public forum for law students, because whatever the answer is (and it is no) it’s obviously not going to help anyone here. In fact, I regret getting involved.

Excuse me while I go mock my friend for his upcoming interview at a firm that isn’t Davies, Blakes, or even Dentons, but is still pretty darn good. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by DonCorleone

[BlockedQuebecois]

Students on this forum: "Please, lawyers, tell us what you think about the law firms that participate in the recruit so we have some additional information as we navigate a major career decision". 

BQ: "Dentons sucks, don't go there if you can go somewhere better."

DonCorleone: "You're just a snobbist elitist."

[DonCorleone]

2 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Students on this forum: "Please, lawyers, tell us what you think about the law firms that participate in the recruit so we have some additional information as we navigate a major career decision". 

BQ: "Dentons sucks, don't go there if you can go somewhere better."

DonCorleone: "You're just a snobbist elitist."

The fact that you can’t even see that that’s wrong is telling in itself. Dentons in some areas is a Band 1,2,3,4 firm on Chambers. Do all firms that don’t rank suck too? How are students reading this who just got jobs at unranked firms supposed to feel about that statement? 

I spent the last couple hours trying to expose you as being a snob but it looks like you just did it for me. Thanks. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

If you wanted to expose me as a snobbish elite, you could have just asked. I have no problem admitting to being an elitist about this type of thing.

Anyways, as I said in the thread Corleone is quoting me from, the main problem with Dentons is that it now exclusively hires via the 1L recruit, and the people hired in the 1L recruit invariably could end up at a better firm than Dentons if they did the 2L recruit instead. 

And this isn't just me slagging Dentons without being willing to put my money where my mouth is. I specifically didn't apply to Dentons in the 1L recruit because I thought Dentons was a mediocre firm and I would end up somewhere better in the 2L recruit, if necessary.  

I think students who are applying for the 1L recruit should seriously consider not applying to Dentons, and I think students who get hired as 1L students at Dentons should seriously consider holding their offer and applying elsewhere in the 2L recruit. 

[Animal Soup]

8 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I think students who are applying for the 1L recruit should seriously consider not applying to Dentons, and I think students who get hired as 1L students at Dentons should seriously consider holding their offer and applying elsewhere in the 2L recruit. 

Shouldn't the advice be to take the 1L offer at Dentons, and leverage that in 2L recruit? (assuming you don't wish to stay in Dentons). Surely, having a 1L at Dentons puts you head over heels over other applicants?

[DonCorleone]

1 hour ago, easttowest said:

On the one hand this is compelling but then immediately on the other I remember how prone some partners can be to saying whatever is on their mind regardless of audience. 

The people I talked to were on the brink of mandatory retirement they literally didn’t care haha 

[easttowest]

49 minutes ago, Animal Soup said:

Shouldn't the advice be to take the 1L offer at Dentons, and leverage that in 2L recruit? (assuming you don't wish to stay in Dentons). Surely, having a 1L at Dentons puts you head over heels over other applicants?

It would be a pretty bad look to sign an offer letter and then enter a recruit for that very job without telling your employer. 

I’m not even sure if you’d get an offer if firms knew you had already officially accepted a 2L job somewhere else. 

[johnny.rahmbo]

13 minutes ago, easttowest said:

It would be a pretty bad look to sign an offer letter and then enter a recruit for that very job without telling your employer. 

I’m not even sure if you’d get an offer if firms knew you had already officially accepted a 2L job somewhere else. 

I think Animal Soup meant leverage in the sense of having had the experience during 1L of working in a firm doing corporate work. I assume they would not accept a 2L offer from Dentons then enter the recruit - plus i don't think this is allowed. What is allowed however, is to "Hold" an offer from Dentons then enter the recruit. 

I would not say that a candidate would be "head over heels over other applicants." Perhaps you would know the structure of an interview and could speak to skills you acquired through your experience but the majority of successful 2L hires do not have experience in firms. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by johnny.rahmbo

[easttowest]

2 minutes ago, johnny.rahmbo said:

I think Animal Soup meant leverage in the sense of having had the experience during 1L of working in a firm doing corporate work. I assume they would not accept a 2L offer from Dentons then enter the recruit - plus i don't think this is allowed. What is allowed however, is to "Hold" an offer from Dentons then enter the recruit. 

I would not say that a candidate would be "head over heels over other applicants." Perhaps you would know the structure of an interview and could speak to skills you acquired through your experience but the majority of successful 2L hires do not have experience in firms. 

Sure, but the poster disagreed with what you suggest, saying “shouldn’t the advice be to take the 1L offer.”

Unless they literally mean take the offer into the 2L recruit and attempt to use it to get, I dunno, a better offer somewhere else? In which case I think almost every firm would say “cool, enjoy your 2L summer at Dentons!” 

[johnny.rahmbo]

2 minutes ago, easttowest said:

Sure, but the poster disagreed with what you suggest, saying “shouldn’t the advice be to take the 1L offer.”

Unless they literally mean take the offer into the 2L recruit and attempt to use it to get, I dunno, a better offer somewhere else? In which case I think almost every firm would say “cool, enjoy your 2L summer at Dentons!” 

Agreed - not sure firms would waste their time on someone who already has an offer elsewhere. Although im not entirely sure they would be aware of the offer or if there is a requirement to disclose (cant imagine there is - although that seems sneaky lol). 

[DonCorleone]

3 minutes ago, johnny.rahmbo said:

Agreed - not sure firms would waste their time on someone who already has an offer elsewhere

I’ve seen a few people that worked at Aird or BLG for 1L summer and then went to Torys or Paul Weiss or some other firm for 2L. 

[johnny.rahmbo]

7 minutes ago, DonCorleone said:

I’ve seen a few people that worked at Aird or BLG for 1L summer and then went to Torys or Paul Weiss or some other firm for 2L. 

We are saying someone has an offer to return for their 2L summer (to the firm which they 1L'd at), accepts it and then goes into the recruit and tries to get another firm position at a "better" one. 

I imagine the individuals you know just decided not to accept a 2L position at Aird or BLG or held their offers and then secured at Torys or PW. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by johnny.rahmbo

[CleanHands]

1 hour ago, Animal Soup said:

Surely, having a 1L at Dentons puts you head over heels over other applicants?

@BlockedQuebecois would probably consider that a negative to have on a resume. 😛

[DonCorleone]

23 minutes ago, johnny.rahmbo said:

We are saying someone has an offer to return for their 2L summer (to the firm which they 1L'd at), accepts it and then goes into the recruit and tries to get another firm position at a "better" one. 

I imagine the individuals you know just decided not to accept a 2L position at Aird or BLG or held their offers and then secured at Torys or PW. 

What’s the difference 

[Pendragon]

Is Dentons actually that bad? I've seen an Associate from Dentons recently move to Davies; and I've seen quite a few lawyers from there recently move to US Big law. The only "average" 1L firm that I have seen strategically scoop up top students is Aird & Berlis. Many of the people landing 1L jobs at Aird & Berlis should avoid applying there, because they can get much better jobs in the 2L recruit (i.e. Dean's listers from U of T and Osgoode). 

[Animal Soup]

48 minutes ago, easttowest said:

Sure, but the poster disagreed with what you suggest, saying “shouldn’t the advice be to take the 1L offer.”

Unless they literally mean take the offer into the 2L recruit and attempt to use it to get, I dunno, a better offer somewhere else? In which case I think almost every firm would say “cool, enjoy your 2L summer at Dentons!” 

I may be mistaken - but I'm under the impression that you are allowed to accept a 1L job offer (i.e., at Dentons), but you can be candid with them that you don't want to accept a return in 2L. So you are just going back into the candidate pool in 2L - but now you have a summer job on your resume from 1L. I think firms are pretty receptive to 1L summer work, but I could be wrong. You would, for sure though, have to explain in 2L OCI why you are not returning back to Dentons...but that could be because you didn't enjoy the practice group or work, or idk what

[johnny.rahmbo]

3 minutes ago, Animal Soup said:

I may be mistaken - but I'm under the impression that you are allowed to accept a 1L job offer (i.e., at Dentons), but you can be candid with them that you don't want to accept a return in 2L. So you are just going back into the candidate pool in 2L - but now you have a summer job on your resume from 1L. I think firms are pretty receptive to 1L summer work, but I could be wrong. You would, for sure though, have to explain in 2L OCI why you are not returning back to Dentons...but that could be because you didn't enjoy the practice group or work, or idk what

Yes absolutely you can do that. 

17 minutes ago, DonCorleone said:

What’s the difference 

Accepting a binding offer of employment governed by the LSO vs. not doing that. That is the main difference, among others. 

[penguin]

54 minutes ago, easttowest said:

Sure, but the poster disagreed with what you suggest, saying “shouldn’t the advice be to take the 1L offer.”

Unless they literally mean take the offer into the 2L recruit and attempt to use it to get, I dunno, a better offer somewhere else? In which case I think almost every firm would say “cool, enjoy your 2L summer at Dentons!” 

I know someone who worked at Dentons during 1L and they said all the students were given articling offers and the ability to go elsewhere for 2L summer. This wasn't the Toronto office tho.