Article at small firm or apply (again) to bigger firms?

[ammoniumthioglycolate]

I'm working at a small firm right now (3 lawyers, 2 law clerks including me) in a practice area I'm not interested in (real estate). I want to work at a bigger firm (not even biglaw, just bigger - like 20+ people) in a practice area that's more relevant to what I want to do (entertainment, corporate/commercial on a bigger scale, etc).

I'm in a very fortunate position to have been offered articles at my firm, but my boss is also equally supportive of my search for articles at a bigger firm. Do I prioritize articling at this small firm over applying for summer positions at a bigger (and more reputable) firm?

My biggest fear is that I won't be able to lateral out from my small firm to a bigger firm, because I really don't want to get stuck working at this small firm for years and years to come. Ideally, I'd make my move after 1 or 2 years as an associate at my small firm. This is my last chance to apply for summer positions at bigger firms because after this recruitment cycle, I'm going to stick it out at the small firm, but I'm just so afraid I'll get stuck working somewhere I don't want to be for a long time.

Or am I being totally unreasonable here???

[99problems]

I would apply first, see the results, and then figure out which option is the best.

1 hour ago, ammoniumthioglycolate said:

Do I prioritize articling at this small firm over applying for summer positions at a bigger (and more reputable) firm?

I can't see if there is a conflict here. Clearly, you are not happy with where you currently are. So why not apply? If you get an offer from a bigger firm, then you can choose. If not, you're lucky you have an articling offer already.

 

[PulpFiction]

2 hours ago, ammoniumthioglycolate said:

-snip-

If I were you, I'd search for something else. 

The biggest issue here is that you're thinking of gaining experience and working in an area of law you're not interested in. I don't think this is a good way to start your career. It's also not the size (in terms of lawyers at the firm) that you want. You probably won't be satisfied in this position, which will undoubtedly affect your motivation and development. It's one thing when you're contemplating an offer in a practice area you're not sure about, or at a firm you're not sure about - in these situations it may be worth exploring, as the opportunity could end up being something you enjoy. However, in this case, you're already working at the firm and know you're not satisfied with many things about the firm, including the size and area of law they practice. 

If you do stick with the firm and gain enough experience in real estate (assuming some commercial too), I don't see why you wouldn't be able to shift to a bigger firm. It seems like a reasonable and realistic move for someone who desires it. Your future opportunities at bigger firms might be limited to real estate, though I can't speak to that specifically.

Holding out for a position that's more suitable for you is not a bad idea, even in a tough market. Though it seems stressful at the time, it can often be the right choice. I did this and it paid off for me. I applied for some associate positions simply because they were related to what I wanted to do, though they were not a fit otherwise. I was spamming applications to anything remotely related to my desired position. When the offers came, a bit of self-reflection helped me determine that I need to think long-term and I turned a few of them down. I was criticized for turning down a sure thing, but being patient and waiting on the right opportunity resulted in me getting hired by a firm I never thought I'd have the option to work at.  A bit of luck played in to this, no doubt, but that's life. 

You're not happy where you are, and you probably won't be going forward. What you want is very different than what you have. As nice as it is to have something in hand, you don't want to wake up hating your job everyday. A job is nice to have, but a job you don't like will make you miserable, especially with the demands of associate positions. Go through the recruitment cycle and aim for the positions you really want. If it doesn't work out through the recruitment cycle, keep searching. It might be difficult and you might hate yourself while searching for it, but when you land it, you'll thank yourself. 

Edited July 29, 2021 by PulpFiction
I don't know what I'm doing.

[Avatar Aang]

If you're at a residential real estate firm, you should know that the longer you stay there, the harder it is to transfer into other practice areas outside of small firm settings. If you attend a Canadian law school, you can do better than residential real estate. I have been told by a number of lawyers practicing in this area that it should be your last resort. 

However, if you are at a commercial real estate firm, this could potential lend itself to a lateral into mid-sized firms and Big law in the future. It's not the size of your employer that matters, but the kind of experience you are getting. It's not difficult to change practice areas once you get into a larger corporate firm.

[Homosapiens]

Never hurts to try and apply and see where that gets you.

I was fortunate enough to be able to move from a three-lawyer firm to a mid-sized 30-lawyer firm the 5th year of my practice, and also finally able to focus exclusively in the area that I really like and enjoy, with more support staff. Took over 4 months of applications and 20 some interviews to get there. Articling applications and interviews will probably be a bit tougher since there are more competition, but then there are also more opportunities. 

Good luck!

[BlockedQuebecois]

12 hours ago, Avatar Aang said:

If you attend a Canadian law school, you can do better than residential real estate.

Can’t believe nobody has called out this comment yet 😂

Lots of people are happy running a real estate focused practice. It’s not for me, but it’s not something only NCA candidates and degenerates slump into. 

[PalomaBlanca]

20 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Can’t believe nobody has called out this comment yet 😂

Lots of people are happy running a real estate focused practice. It’s not for me, but it’s not something only NCA candidates and degenerates slump into. 

What made you decide to put NCA candidates in the same category as degenerates. 

[Avatar Aang]

27 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Can’t believe nobody has called out this comment yet 😂

Lots of people are happy running a real estate focused practice. It’s not for me, but it’s not something only NCA candidates and degenerates slump into. 

Residential or commercial real estate? Literally, every single residential real estate lawyer I know has told me that it was their last option, and only a supplement income to their other existing practice areas. Anyone I know that only practices residential real estate law is a foreign trained lawyer or a lawyer at an ethnic firm servicing certain ethnic communities.

I'm also only talking about the GTA and not small towns.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Avatar Aang

[123]

13 hours ago, Avatar Aang said:

you can do better than residential real estate.

13 minutes ago, Avatar Aang said:

Literally, every single residential real estate lawyer I know has told me that it was their last option, and only a supplement income to their other existing practice areas.

Wait, what's wrong with residential real estate. I mean, it sounds boring. But that's just because my twitter-addled millennial brain refuses to engage with any casework that doesn't have gossipy back stories in the pleadings, so the idea of practicing any kind of transactional law sounds cruel and unusual. 

 

Edited July 29, 2021 by realpseudonym

[Avatar Aang]

18 minutes ago, realpseudonym said:

Wait, what's wrong with residential real estate. I mean, it sounds boring. But that's just because my twitter-addled millennial brain refuses to engage with any casework that doesn't have gossipy back stories in the pleadings, so the idea of practicing any kind of transactional law sounds cruel and unusual. 

 

I'm not entirely sure, but my friend who has it as a supplemental practice told me he is only doing it because it came with the firm he purchased. He told me it is an area of law that doesn't require much horsepower and is pretty mind numbing and boring. It's a volume based practice so he just signs off on all the work that is done by the clerks. He told me it was an area of law that is a last resort for most lawyers. He specifically told me to try everything else first and if I couldn't find anything that excited me, then this is fine if I just wanted to make a decent income. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

38 minutes ago, PalomaBlanca said:

What made you decide to put NCA candidates in the same category as degenerates. 

You’re right, it was very rude. I apologize to all the degenerates who were offended by my comment. 

[QueensDenning]

1 hour ago, PalomaBlanca said:

What made you decide to put NCA candidates in the same category as degenerates. 

Wouldn't separating NCA candidates from degenerates ("NCA candidates and degenerates") logically lead to the conclusion that they are separate categories? This seems like an LSAT question. Maybe they're on the same level, but in different categories nonetheless.

[123]

22 minutes ago, Avatar Aang said:

I'm not entirely sure, but my friend who has it as a supplemental practice told me he is only doing it because it came with the firm he purchased. He told me it is an area of law that doesn't require much horsepower and is pretty mind numbing and boring. It's a volume based practice so he just signs off on all the work that is done by the clerks. He told me it was an area of law that is a last resort for most lawyers. He specifically told me to try everything else first and if I couldn't find anything that excited me, then this is fine if I just wanted to make a decent income. 

Let's find out. @Mountebank: is @Avatar Aang's friend right? Are your horses unnecessarily powerful? Has your mind grown numb from checklists?

[Hegdis]

Edit: I re-read the OP and see the boss is supportive. Leaving the comment as a general remark no longer directed at this OP.

OP, if you have a contract with your current firm, think carefully before applying elsewhere and get some advice on what you obligations are. Start with your law society and if necessary go from there.

And keep in mind that while you do need to look out for yourself in this profession, one of your concerns should be your reputation. Your word should mean something. If you accepted an articling offer but actually intend to look around and see if anything is better out there, it's not a good look. You could take a reputational hit. Tread carefully and next time, watch what you commit yourself to.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Hegdis

[Toad]

1 hour ago, Avatar Aang said:

 ...is pretty mind numbing and boring...make a decent income. 

Sounds good to me.  

Edited July 29, 2021 by Toad

[ZineZ]

1 hour ago, Avatar Aang said:

Anyone I know that only practices residential real estate law is a foreign trained lawyer or a lawyer at an ethnic firm servicing certain ethnic communities.

I'm also only talking about the GTA and not small towns.

This is definitely not every real estate lawyer in the GTA. While you are correct to a point, I know of multiple people who were gunning for these positions as either A) they had worked as real estate agents in the past or B) they had found a firm that offered excellent work-life balance. 

It isn't everyone's first choice - but I know some very happy RE lawyers. 

 

 

[Yogurt Baron]

33 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I apologize to all the degenerates

Accepted!

[CleanHands]

1 minute ago, ZineZ said:

A) they had worked as real estate agents in the past

Real estate agents are some of the most useless people on the planet, so that kind of goes to @Avatar Aang's point.

[Hegdis]

Yeah I have no idea where all this RE hate is coming from. It's kind of sprung up fully formed from some one's head. Not sure of the wisdom involved however.

[Mountebank]

1 hour ago, realpseudonym said:

Let's find out. @Mountebank: is @Avatar Aang's friend right? Are your horses unnecessarily powerful? Has your mind grown numb from checklists?

It sounds like Avatar's friend just doesn't like real estate. But that makes sense because it's not for everyone and anyone who chooses it as a last resort will hate it because, unlike most areas of law, it really has to be run like a proper business in order to make any decent money at it (and nobody who begrudgingly takes on a business will ever be capable of running it well).

In my neck of the woods, most of the residential real estate is dominated by a handful of good ol' boys who've very deliberately made it their primary practice (although, full disclosure, it's actually not my primary practice).

I have a colleague who does volume real estate, a sole practitioner like me (except with way more assistance), who has been billing out $30k-$40k per day the last week. Yes, per day.

PER FUCKING DAY.

He doesn't work weekends or evenings and the work isn't any more stressful than any other practice area. I doubt he fell into the practice by accident, but if he did, I still probably won't weep for him.

Edit: Just to actually address the original question: no. Checklists are for clerks and horsepower is for software people or engineers or something. The practice of real estate is primarily meeting with clients and reviewing your clerk's notes. Doesn't seem so different from reviewing articles of incorporation or probate applications to me.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Mountebank

[123]

8 minutes ago, Mountebank said:

It sounds like Avatar's friend just doesn't like real estate. But that makes sense because it's not for everyone and anyone who chooses it as a last resort will hate it because, unlike most areas of law, it really has to be run like a proper business in order to make any decent money at it (and nobody who begrudgingly takes on a business will ever be capable of running it well).

In my neck of the woods, most of the residential real estate is dominated by a handful of good ol' boys who've very deliberately made it their primary practice (although it happens to be only a small part of my own, but that's because it fits in with my overall business plan and not just as a source of supplemental income, although I get why it's hard to turn down even as a supplement).

I have a colleague who does volume real estate, a sole practitioner like me (except with way more assistance), who has been billing out $30k-$40k per day the last week. Yes, per day.

PER FUCKING DAY.

He doesn't work weekends or evenings and the work isn't any more stressful than any other practice area. I doubt he fell into the practice by accident, but if he did, I still probably won't weep for him.

Mind numbing or not, you can pickle my brain in THC oil for 40k per day. 

[Mountebank]

1 minute ago, realpseudonym said:

Mind numbing or not, you can pickle my brain in THC oil for 40k per day. 

Yeah. And here I am pleased if I bill half that in a month.

I don’t actually know his billings, but I'm going off the number of closings he's had. This is basically the busiest week of the year for residential real estate so I'm sure it's not typical. Still though. 5 days of that would keep me to Christmas.

[PalomaBlanca]

2 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

You’re right, it was very rude. I apologize to all the degenerates who were offended by my comment. 

Are we in a fight?

[ammoniumthioglycolate]

Hi everyone, thank you so much for all your input!!!

16 hours ago, Avatar Aang said:

If you're at a residential real estate firm, you should know that the longer you stay there, the harder it is to transfer into other practice areas outside of small firm settings...

However, if you are at a commercial real estate firm, this could potential lend itself to a lateral into mid-sized firms and Big law in the future. It's not the size of your employer that matters, but the kind of experience you are getting. It's not difficult to change practice areas once you get into a larger corporate firm.

I'm doing a mix of residential and commercial real estate. Commercial being all small businesses, mostly just small partnerships and sole proprietorships who are constantly buying and selling properties and refinancing. That said, real estate is super boring to me.

2 hours ago, CleanHands said:

Real estate agents are some of the most useless people on the planet, so that kind of goes to @Avatar Aang's point.

A majority of real estate agents are pretty useless and actually make things more difficult sometimes. But the lawyer I work with does exclusively real estate and he chose to because he enjoys it so much.

19 hours ago, PulpFiction said:

If I were you, I'd search for something else.

(etc)

This is what I'm thinking...it's so tough but I think I do need to think longer term. I REALLY do not want to get stuck doing real estate, residential or commercial lol.

Edited July 30, 2021 by ammoniumthioglycolate

[KOMODO]

Chiming in as one of the board's real estate lawyers. I practice exclusively commercial real estate at a Bay Street firm, but sometimes run across residential RE lawyers on the other side of files, and have a few friends who are residential RE lawyers.

As others have mentioned, residential RE is a volume business - you can only make the big bucks if you're running a clerk farm. This means you're not really fully engaged with each file, and instead you're hoping that your clerks handle things properly. I could never function in a system like that, there's just too much risk and I would find it incredibly stressful. On almost every file with a residential real estate lawyer on the other side, they make a pretty significant mistake just due to thoughtlessness / an unwillingness to deviate from their conveyancer precedents (though in fairness, I'm seeing them on their most complicated files - most of the time they're using cookie cutters to cut cookies and it's all fine). 

Commercial real estate is an entirely different beast, everything is bespoke and it's very academic and technical. So in that sense, the two areas are really polar opposites - for one, you barely need to practice law (you're just managing people and convincing clients to use you), and for the other you spend lots of your time in textbooks and thinking about the structure and goals of the specific file.