Article at small firm or apply (again) to bigger firms?

[erin otoole]

1 hour ago, KOMODO said:

Chiming in as one of the board's real estate lawyers. I practice exclusively commercial real estate at a Bay Street firm, but sometimes run across residential RE lawyers on the other side of files, and have a few friends who are residential RE lawyers.

As others have mentioned, residential RE is a volume business - you can only make the big bucks if you're running a clerk farm. This means you're not really fully engaged with each file, and instead you're hoping that your clerks handle things properly. I could never function in a system like that, there's just too much risk and I would find it incredibly stressful. On almost every file with a residential real estate lawyer on the other side, they make a pretty significant mistake just due to thoughtlessness / an unwillingness to deviate from their conveyancer precedents (though in fairness, I'm seeing them on their most complicated files - most of the time they're using cookie cutters to cut cookies and it's all fine). 

Commercial real estate is an entirely different beast, everything is bespoke and it's very academic and technical. So in that sense, the two areas are really polar opposites - for one, you barely need to practice law (you're just managing people and convincing clients to use you), and for the other you spend lots of your time in textbooks and thinking about the structure and goals of the specific file.

I am working at a 20ish lawyer general practice firm, with a small but busy residential RE department. If I want to make the jump to big law commercial RE is it worth assisting the clerks on the residential files? In my couple months here we have only had a handful of commercial deals come through and I didn't have the capacity to assist the partners on the files. 

 

Anything that you can imagine would help the jump? 

[KOMODO]

9 minutes ago, erin otoole said:

I am working at a 20ish lawyer general practice firm, with a small but busy residential RE department. If I want to make the jump to big law commercial RE is it worth assisting the clerks on the residential files? In my couple months here we have only had a handful of commercial deals come through and I didn't have the capacity to assist the partners on the files. 

 

Anything that you can imagine would help the jump? 

Probably not - I mean, sure, you could watch what a clerk does on a single residential real estate file to get a sense of the process, but it really doesn't translate much to our process on commercial files.

If you want to practice commercial real estate, prioritize commercial real estate files and any financing work. You will probably need to go to a mid-size firm or boutique before a big firm if you have little or no commercial experience. I'm not sure what other work you're currently doing (corporate, litigation, etc.) but it sounds like you may need to transition to a different firm with a more robust RE dept. under the pretext of doing X other kind of work, slowly take on more RE work there, and then reevaluate. 

If you are serious about making the transition, there is a wealth of knowledge you can get by reading the textbook Real Estate Practice in Ontario by Donahue and Quinn (it's an easy-ish read as far as textbooks go, but the concepts are fundamental to practicing real estate law).

[elmelm]

On 7/29/2021 at 2:11 PM, Avatar Aang said:

Residential or commercial real estate? Literally, every single residential real estate lawyer I know has told me that it was their last option, and only a supplement income to their other existing practice areas. Anyone I know that only practices residential real estate law is a foreign trained lawyer or a lawyer at an ethnic firm servicing certain ethnic communities.

I'm also only talking about the GTA and not small towns.

“Lawyer at an ethnic firm servicing certain ethnic communities”

Oh. My. God. A Karen in the wild...I thought I would only ever get to see one in Youtube clips.

[BlockedQuebecois]

7 minutes ago, elmelm said:

“Lawyer at an ethnic firm servicing certain ethnic communities”

Oh. My. God. A Karen in the wild...I thought I would only ever get to see one in Youtube clips.

“Ethnic firm” probably isn’t how I would have phrased it, but the idea that some firms are mainly/exclusively staffed with people from a certain ethnic group and focus their practice on serving that ethnic group is completely sound. Recognizing their existence doesn’t make someone a Karen. 

[elmelm]

That’s why I didn’t call someone who was discussing that some firms are mainly/exclusively staffed with people from a certain ethnic group and focus their practice on serving that ethnic group a Karen. 
 

I called someone who describes, what is in their opinion, a low tier practice area as something only ”foreign” and “ethnic” lawyers do a Karen. Ken.

[Avatar Aang]

3 minutes ago, elmelm said:

That’s why I didn’t call someone who was discussing that some firms are mainly/exclusively staffed with people from a certain ethnic group and focus their practice on serving that ethnic group a Karen. 
 

I called someone who describes, what is in their opinion, a low tier practice area as something only ”foreign” and “ethnic” lawyers do a Karen. Ken.

I frankly don't give a shit what you describe this as. This discussion had moved past this and was diving into some really good examples from actual real estate lawyers before you popped in here to offer your two cents which isn't worth much. Looks like you're a law student too. Come back with some well-informed opinions about the actual legal market you haven't stepped foot into. 

As I said, in my anecdotal experience of the GTA market, most residential real estate lawyers I have met fell into those two camps. Others have mentioned that although this is true to some extent, there are also many residential real estate lawyers that do not fall into these camps - particularly those who were real estate agents before going to law school, operating a general multi-service firm, or want a paycheque at the end of the day. 

[elmelm]

Also, very Karen of you to not “give a shit” about what your words mean to others and tell me I shouldn’t give my opinion.

As a visible minority, I think my opinion is worth something and I will continue to call out obvious insensitivity to “foreigners” and “ethnic” people as you call them. Just because someone is critical of you doesn’t mean their two cents “isn’t worth much.”

...and as a law student I hope you don’t represent the Canadian legal community because it’s going to be a long tough Karen filled road...

[BlockedQuebecois]

When someone’s two cents are significantly based on reading “foreign trained lawyer” as “foreigner”, however, they’re probably worth a penny at best. 

[elmelm]

Yes, I apologize “foreign trained lawyer” not “foreigner” but that doesn’t change anything else I am trying to say! Just ignore everything else lol...

[Goblin King]

39 minutes ago, elmelm said:

I called someone who describes, what is in their opinion, a low tier practice area as something only ”foreign” and “ethnic” lawyers do a Karen. Ken.

POC, who usually jumps on the racial insensitivity bandwagon on this site here. I don't think @Avatar Aang said anything racist. Foreign trained lawyers are less competitive in the Canadian job market, and POC lawyers who are uncompetitive because of foreign training or otherwise will leverage their cultural networks to make their business viable. You see this leveraging in other practice areas as well (i.e. immigration). If they'd said that most "ethnic" lawyers gravitate towards a practice area they deem to be lower-tier, that would be more suspect. You can maybe take issue with their wording (I'm not a big fan of "ethnic firm"), but there's really nothing offensive here. 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Goblin King

[elmelm]

I just realized I’ve become someone on an online forum arguing with Karens as if they will ever listen. That’s my exit!

I hope any minorities that have to work around you recognize your behavior and protect themselves. There is nothing more dangerous then close minded people that are unwilling to listen and instead are overly defensive and critical....

[Goblin King]

3 minutes ago, elmelm said:

I hope any minorities that have to work around you recognize your behavior and protect themselves. There is nothing more dangerous then close minded people that are unwilling to listen and instead are overly defensive and critical....

Bears. Bears are more dangerous. 

[ZineZ]

 

1 minute ago, Goblin King said:

POC, who usually jumps on the racial insensitivity bandwagon on this site. I don't think @Avatar Aang said anything racist. Foreign trained lawyers are less competitive in the Canadian job market, and POC lawyers who are uncompetitive because of foreign training or otherwise will leverage their cultural networks to make their business viable. You see this leveraging in other practice areas as well (i.e. immigration). If they'd said that most "ethnic" lawyers gravitate towards a practice area they deem to be lower-tier, that would be more suspect. You can maybe take issue with their wording (I'm not a big fan of "ethnic firm"), but there's really nothing offensive here. 

I was about to type out something similar. I have a number of frustrations with the way that the legal profession treats racialized lawyers and I'm not a fan of the word "ethnic" here, but Avatar Aang's point is not entirely off-kilter. We know that foreign-trained lawyers and persons of colour are often relegated into sole-practice/areas of the profession that are seen as "less desirable". 

There were better ways to phrase this, but I'm not convinced that there was either malice or racism in Avatar Aang's posts.  It's an unfortunate reality that persons of colour are often forced to go into areas of the profession which aren't their first choice - including real estate. 

[elmelm]

4 minutes ago, Goblin King said:

Bears. Bears are more dangerous. 

Lmao!

I respect your opinion and these issues are nuanced. For me, it was insensitive never said it was racist.

And theyre both Kareny

[BlockedQuebecois]

3 minutes ago, elmelm said:

Yes, I apologize “foreign trained lawyer” not “foreigner” but that doesn’t change anything else I am trying to say! Just ignore everything else lol...

I think the problem is it’s not at all clear what you’re trying to say because you’re focussing too much on insulting people rather than making your point. 

[KOMODO]

@elmelm I agree with @Goblin King, I think what people are recognizing in this thread is that lawyers who did not attend law school in Canada generally have fewer options, and one of the options with a relatively low bar for entry is residential real estate.

As well, as noted above, people who come from a specific cultural community often find success in developing business with people in that same community, especially "retail" areas of law like res RE, immigration, family, wills, crim, etc. We are discussing the reality of the industry, and to the extent that you see that people of colour or newcomers to Canada are underrepresented in other specialties, that's a fair point and an important issue. However you can't just reject the reality that many people choose residential real estate because they lack other options, or the reality that many of the people selecting res RE because they lack options are lawyers who didn't go to school here, or the reality that many if not most res RE firms cater to a specific cultural, religious or ethnic demographic. So respectfully, I think your ire is a bit misplaced.

I also took a peek at your short posting history and it is notable for me. You state that you hope you won't waste your time posting on a forum like this once you're a lawyer, while also asking for updates about whether you'll receive an in firm articling interview at a big firm. As a senior associate at a big firm, I can tell you that your attitude would be a total turnoff for me during recruit - calling people names, acting like you're better than / know more than those with more experience, etc. 

[elmelm]

That’s rich coming from you 🤮

[elmelm]

How can a senior associate at a big law firm read and analyze so poorly?

 

I made that post criticizing Blocked Quebecois because of his behaviour posting on this thread and the old thread being exactly as you described acting like they are better than and consistently posting negatively. 
 

Maybe you should have a look at that posting history to see what I was referring to. NOT people posting on here to get information, discuss important topics etc. Or even posting a funny insult here and there. This guy is constant and has had a lot of problems with people in the past.

The fact you would be turned off during recruit means nothing, this is a place to be able to state your opinions get information have some fun. Not how I would act or speak during recruitment or at work. 
 

I have posted on here for info and to criticize what I believe is racial insensitivity if thats not valued at your firm I would like to know what firm it is so I can avoid it.

[Goblin King]

Just now, elmelm said:

Lmao!

I respect your opinion and these issues are nuanced. For me, it was insensitive never said it was racist.

And theyre both Kareny

A few things here: 

1. While I agree these issues are nuanced, I don't think that what @Avatar Aang said even rises to the level of insensitivity. Their delivery might have been a little bit insensitive, but I don't see how the content is. They really just pointed out something they believe to be factual -- the prevalence of POC lawyers serving their respective communities and those with foreign training  in real estate. They never offered any reasons for this, let alone insensitive ones. Their assertion was more or less supported by the facts, but to a less extreme degree than they initially stated. 

2. I don't think you're using the term "Karen/Ken" correctly. This is a petty gripe, but I'm a petty person, so I'll address it. Wikipedia defines the term as such: 

"Karen is a pejorative term for a woman seeming to be entitled or demanding beyond the scope of what is normal. The term also refers to memes depicting white women who use their privilege to demand their own way." 

I don't think  @Avatar Aang's comments fit either of those definitions. Really, you're just accusing them of saying something racially insensitive, which is a whole other ball game. Not all racist behaviour is "Karen-ing." 

[elmelm]

Omg this is exhausting. I understand this is a law forum so people are naturally argumentative but good god. 
 

You are not the authority on racial insensitivity, I understand YOU and others may not believe it was. However I and others may believe it is. And I did. Again not racist but racially insensitive. Not because it may not be true, never said that anywhere, but because of the way he worded it.
 

That definition of Karen, while great, I really appreciate it. Is NOT all encompassing or official in any way. It is a recent cultural term that has been and can be used in many ways including describing someone who is racially insensitive, critical, and just doesn’t listen. (Sorry just being petty about this)

 

 

[KOMODO]

8 minutes ago, elmelm said:

How can a senior associate at a big law firm read and analyze so poorly?

 

I made that post criticizing Blocked Quebecois because of his behaviour posting on this thread and the old thread being exactly as you described acting like they are better than and consistently posting negatively. 
 

Maybe you should have a look at that posting history to see what I was referring to. NOT people posting on here to get information, discuss important topics etc. Or even posting a funny insult here and there. This guy is constant and has had a lot of problems with people in the past.

The fact you would be turned off during recruit means nothing, this is a place to be able to state your opinions get information have some fun. Not how I would act or speak during recruitment or at work. 
 

I have posted on here for info and to criticize what I believe is racial insensitivity if thats not valued at your firm I would like to know what firm it is so I can avoid it.

I don't agree with your characterization of what's happening here. Your post calling someone a "Karen" was aimed at AA, not BQ, and it was the first time I saw anyone call someone else a name rather than addressing their point. It's also disappointing that you would act a certain way for recruit if that's not actually how you act/feel/are in the other parts of your life, including online. But FYI we can usually still tell whether someone is a jerk, even if they are trying to act a certain way in front of the recruiting lawyer. 

My firm takes inclusion and diversity very seriously, as do I. It's an extension of our belief that everyone should be treated with respect. You're not demonstrating that you understand that idea.

[Goblin King]

2 minutes ago, elmelm said:

Not because it may not be true, never said that anywhere, but because of the way he worded it.

If harshly worded, but probably true content is offensive to you, this may not the the forum to frequent.  I respect that you found it offensive and I'm genuinely sorry about that. However, there's  a general, common-sense standard of racial/cultural insensitivity that must be met before others take your claim of racial insensitivity seriously. If I was to formalize it, I'd say that someone has to say something insensitive ABOUT race. That standard hasn't been met by anything you've posted. A simple combination of racial content and a rude tone does not an offensive statement make. Note that nothing insensitive was said as it relates to race. 

3 minutes ago, elmelm said:

Is NOT all encompassing or official in any way. It is a recent cultural term that has been and can be used in many ways including describing someone who is racially insensitive, critical, and just doesn’t listen. (Sorry just being petty about this)

Because I quite enjoy this term and don't enjoy seeing it bastardized, I'm going to be petty too. Frankly, I've never really come across your interpretation of what a Karen is. While my definition isn't all-encompassing, something common to most people's understanding of being a Karen is a sense of entitlement and weaponized privilege. Neither of these qualities are present in avatar aang's posts. There's a word for what you think avatar aang is being and that's "a dick."

[elmelm]

31 minutes ago, KOMODO said:

I don't agree with your characterization of what's happening here. Your post calling someone a "Karen" was aimed at AA, not BQ, and it was the first time I saw anyone call someone else a name rather than addressing their point. It's also disappointing that you would act a certain way for recruit if that's not actually how you act/feel/are in the other parts of your life, including online. But FYI we can usually still tell whether someone is a jerk, even if they are trying to act a certain way in front of the recruiting lawyer. 

My firm takes inclusion and diversity very seriously, as do I. It's an extension of our belief that everyone should be treated with respect. You're not demonstrating that you understand that idea.

There is professionalism and work behaviour and home behaviour. The way I act at work and during recruiting is different than I act with my friends than I act with my family than I act at a funeral than I act at a wedding. Its a simple concept.

 

If calling out something I believe was racially insensitive is not work appropriate to you then I don’t think you follow your firm’s so called inclusion and diversity initiative. Stating opinions about racial subjects has always been considered disruptive, and difficult and I sense that is what you are getting? That is wrong.

 

Also, if this is the first time you have seen someone calling a name rather than addressing a point I can message you a ton of examples from this forum over.

Edited August 3, 2021 by elmelm

[Disbarred]

49 minutes ago, Goblin King said:

Bears. Bears are more dangerous. 

Don’t sleep on hippos! 

[elmelm]

20 minutes ago, Goblin King said:

If harshly worded, but probably true content is offensive to you, this may not the the forum to frequent.  I respect that you found it offensive and I'm genuinely sorry about that. However, there's  a general, common-sense standard of racial/cultural insensitivity that must be met before others take your claim of racial insensitivity seriously. If I was to formalize it, I'd say that someone has to say something insensitive ABOUT race. That standard hasn't been met by anything you've posted. A simple combination of racial content and a rude tone does not an offensive statement make. Note that nothing insensitive was said as it relates to race. 

Because I quite enjoy this term and don't enjoy seeing it bastardized, I'm going to be petty too. Frankly, I've never really come across your interpretation of what a Karen is. While my definition isn't all-encompassing, something common to most people's understanding of being a Karen is a sense of entitlement and weaponized privilege. Neither of these qualities are present in avatar aang's posts. There's a word for what you think avatar aang is being and that's "a dick."

I never said I can’t handle insensitive  content, so I am not sure why you are telling me not to frequent the forum? It seems you cant handle a different opinion to yours and you react by telling people to get off the website (I’m sorry do you run it or....?)?

 

Again, I don’t know why you think you can formalize a standard on when to take a comment seriously? And then evaluate said comment against that standard? (Do you pay the fees to run this website?.. I’m confused...?)?

 

are you reading what I write or am I wasting my time because I said that I thought it was insensitive and again I understand you do not.

again, my point is that you cannot reference some definition of a Karen that does not exist. It is a cultural term with a meaning that you do not just get to decide the specificity of.

This is my first online fight. It’s exhilarating, exhausting, amazing, infuriating. I think I finally understand you BlockedQuebecois!

Edited August 3, 2021 by elmelm