How not to get hired on Bay Street

[Renerik]

56 minutes ago, Dinsdale said:

Are firms going to give up on TMU entirely?

Meh, a lot of noise comes out of TMU but I wouldn't be so bearish on their future. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

I don't think firms are going to give up on TMU entirely, so to that extent I agree that I wouldn't be so bearish. 

But in my view, as someone who expected TMU to compete with Queens and Western for the position of third best law school in the province, TMU has done real and lasting harm to its reputation over the last four years.

That is going to harm its ability to attract competitive students as well as its ability to place those students in top firms, and it may well be that TMU never overcomes those early reputational harms to achieve what it could have achieved if it had been governed competently. 

[Renerik]

We don't disagree on those points.

But damn, TMU so much as breathes and some people think the graduates will be shunned out of the profession.

[CleanHands]

I definitely don't think TMU grads are doomed; I kind of doubt that firms are paying as much attention to what's going on there as us loser forum-dwellers (but I'm open to correction for anyone with an inside view into such firms).

But in my mind TMU is "TikTok Virtue-Signaling Law School." The dumb social justice marketing probably plays a part and I suspect the lack of existing alumni base to create a culture there and basically all of their students being zoomers who grew up with social media does as well.

[BHC1]

2 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I don't think firms are going to give up on TMU entirely, so to that extent I agree that I wouldn't be so bearish. 

But in my view, as someone who expected TMU to compete with Queens and Western for the position of third best law school in the province, TMU has done real and lasting harm to its reputation over the last four years.

That is going to harm its ability to attract competitive students as well as its ability to place those students in top firms, and it may well be that TMU never overcomes those early reputational harms to achieve what it could have achieved if it had been governed competently. 

I think by sheer geographic advantage, TMU will eventually overtake Western/Queens in the pecking order of Ontario law schools. But it’s going to be at least a decade or two before it sheds its early image as a messy rudderless law school.

This year’s student recruitment numbers for TMU were very unimpressive - though this could be the bottom.

[Mountebank]

1 hour ago, CleanHands said:

I definitely don't think TMU grads are doomed; I kind of doubt that firms are paying as much attention to what's going on there as us loser forum-dwellers (but I'm open to correction for anyone with an inside view into such firms).

Speaking as the Chairman of the Secret Society of BigLaw Firm Recruitment and Student Wage-Fixing, you're way off-base here.

[C_Terror]

TMU's proximity to Toronto firms will eventually give them a leg up over Western and Queen's. Maybe not in the near term, but definitely in the future. 

[Dinsdale]

15 minutes ago, C_Terror said:

TMU's proximity to Toronto firms will eventually give them a leg up over Western and Queen's. Maybe not in the near term, but definitely in the future. 

I seriously doubt this.  Not without drastic, fundamental changes at TMU. Proximity has nothing to do with it.  A two-hour train ride in VIA One is not much of a disincentive (in fact, some see it as a perq).  Firms (at least the student directors at the large Bay Street firms) closely monitor what is going on at the law schools.  This is an important part of the job.  Firms that have success recruiting from School A will return to that school year after year, and will pay less attention to schools from which they have no grads or few grads.

Edited April 5 by Dinsdale

[chaboywb]

34 minutes ago, C_Terror said:

TMU's proximity to Toronto firms will eventually give them a leg up over Western and Queen's. Maybe not in the near term, but definitely in the future. 

I don't doubt that TMU could end up on the level of Western and Queens in terms of big law hiring, but I don't feel it's definite. I understand we have a very different hiring system here than the U.S., but there are a number of law schools in NYC that don't place students in NY big law despite their proximity. They're not necessarily bad law schools (or maybe they are, I don't really know) but they certainly lag behind in big law hiring, which this thread seems focused on.

It's been discussed to death that we do not have as defined of a tier system in Ontario that the U.S. has with respect to big law hiring, but we all know that it's UofT - Osgoode - Queens/Western - Ottawa/Windsor - Lakehead. But other than Lakehead, there hasn't been a new law faculty in Ontario in over 50 years. It's not impossible that TMU could screw up its reputation early and not necessarily be able to recover. In the modern world where most networking is virtual, I think an established alumni network and engrained biases toward certain law schools outweigh physical proximity.

Edit: Going down a rabbit hole of NYC non-T14 schools, I feel like I see parallels between TMU and CUNY, which is certainly not a school any big law gunner would attend.

Edited April 5 by chaboywb

[Scrantonicity2]

FWIW, for any TMU admits or students reading this and shaking in their boots, I personally know of three TMU students who have landed quite competitive positions for articling and 2L summer (although not in Big Law). This doesn't negate what anyone above has said about potential disadvantages, particularly re Big Law. However, just want to make sure people aren't thinking TMU=totally screwed in the job market.

[Dinsdale]

34 minutes ago, chaboywb said:

Edit: Going down a rabbit hole of NYC non-T14 schools, I feel like I see parallels between TMU and CUNY, which is certainly not a school any big law gunner would attend.

Which is exactly what TMU is going for, isn't it?  The anti Bay Street, eat-the-rich, "social justice" law school.  Which is fine.  Just don't go there expecting to pay off some debt after you graduate with a nice fat Bay Street articling salary.

[Chef Justice]

I don't think TMU is screwed in the job market, but I think reputation building now is more important than ever, and having that reputation hinging on physical proximity (which doesn't clearly confer an advantage to begin with), coupled with its recent mishaps, is not the most secure place to be as a law school. And it seems like for the most part, most applicants aren't choosing TMU over Queen's and Western on location alone, which means they are still gaining stronger applicants in the short (and likely long) term.

Edited April 5 by Chef Justice

[Mountebank]

10 minutes ago, Dinsdale said:

Which is exactly what TMU is going for, isn't it?  The anti Bay Street, eat-the-rich, "social justice" law school.  Which is fine.  Just don't go there expecting to pay off some debt after you graduate with a nice fat Bay Street articling salary.

Paying off debt is for fascists.

[chaboywb]

18 minutes ago, Scrantonicity2 said:

FWIW, for any TMU admits or students reading this and shaking in their boots, I personally know of three TMU students who have landed quite competitive positions for articling and 2L summer (although not in Big Law). This doesn't negate what anyone above has said about potential disadvantages, particularly re Big Law. However, just want to make sure people aren't thinking TMU=totally screwed in the job market.

For sure. A top student is going to do well no matter where they go - as long as a ton of new law schools don't start popping up.

9 minutes ago, Dinsdale said:

Which is exactly what TMU is going for, isn't it?  The anti Bay Street, eat-the-rich, "social justice" law school.  Which is fine.  Just don't go there expecting to pay off some debt after you graduate with a nice fat Bay Street articling salary.

I'd think the students this would hurt are the ones that sell a social justice interest to get into TMU because that's what they know the faculty is looking for, but that are actually targeting big law like the majority (?) of Ontario law students. Their results may not live up to expectations. But again, for now, there isn't a bad law school in Ontario for anyone that genuinely wants to practice law.

[LMP]

53 minutes ago, chaboywb said:

I don't doubt that TMU could end up on the level of Western and Queens in terms of big law hiring, but I don't feel it's definite. I understand we have a very different hiring system here than the U.S., but there are a number of law schools in NYC that don't place students in NY big law despite their proximity. They're not necessarily bad law schools (or maybe they are, I don't really know) but they certainly lag behind in big law hiring, which this thread seems focused on.

It's been discussed to death that we do not have as defined of a tier system in Ontario that the U.S. has with respect to big law hiring, but we all know that it's UofT - Osgoode - Queens/Western - Ottawa/Windsor - Lakehead. But other than Lakehead, there hasn't been a new law faculty in Ontario in over 50 years. It's not impossible that TMU could screw up its reputation early and not necessarily be able to recover. In the modern world where most networking is virtual, I think an established alumni network and engrained biases toward certain law schools outweigh physical proximity.

Edit: Going down a rabbit hole of NYC non-T14 schools, I feel like I see parallels between TMU and CUNY, which is certainly not a school any big law gunner would attend.

There's some merit to the NYC comparison but I think it falters a bit because of the sheer number of schools in New York. 

TMU has and likely will continue to attract students who would probably be able to attend other schools, but who are very deadset on staying in the GTA. I think that alone will help it jump a few a rungs, assuming they stop poisoning the well with constant media circuses. 

[LMP]

40 minutes ago, Scrantonicity2 said:

FWIW, for any TMU admits or students reading this and shaking in their boots, I personally know of three TMU students who have landed quite competitive positions for articling and 2L summer (although not in Big Law). This doesn't negate what anyone above has said about potential disadvantages, particularly re Big Law. However, just want to make sure people aren't thinking TMU=totally screwed in the job market.

I think that's a fair addition and a good reminder. At the end of the day it is a Canadian school with seemingly decent outcomes outside of the areas mentioned. 

[C_Terror]

1 hour ago, Dinsdale said:

I seriously doubt this.  Not without drastic, fundamental changes at TMU. Proximity has nothing to do with it.  A two-hour train ride in VIA One is not much of a disincentive (in fact, some see it as a perq).  Firms (at least the student directors at the large Bay Street firms) closely monitor what is going on at the law schools.  This is an important part of the job.  Firms that have success recruiting from School A will return to that school year after year, and will pay less attention to schools from which they have no grads or few grads.

Caveat, I'm only talking about recruiting prospects in Toronto. We can agree to disagree.  A lot of good students from western and queens end up there because they couldn't get into Toronto or Osgoode because they want to stay close to family. Western and queens students also miss out on a lot of random firm events, which have been great for networking. I say this as a Western/Queens grad. 

It'll take a while but eventually the TMU students will be more and more competitive in the Toronto recruit.   After all,  wasn't Osgoode known as the social justice focused law school for the longest time? 

[BlockedQuebecois]

6 minutes ago, C_Terror said:

It'll take a while but eventually the TMU students will be more and more competitive in the Toronto recruit.   After all,  wasn't Osgoode known as the social justice focused law school for the longest time?

I don’t think there has ever been a point in time where Osgoode was considered anything other than one of the two best schools in Ontario. 

[canuckfanatic]

15 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I don’t think there has ever been a point in time where Osgoode was considered anything other than one of the two best schools in Ontario. 

Maybe 1888

[Dinsdale]

Except for those years when it known colloquially as "was good"?  I dunno.  We had it more on a par with Queen's and Western (all well below U of T) in my student committee days.  Obviously there's a fair bit of subjectivity involved.  We also had strong Windsor and Ottawa alumni, so were careful to give those two schools a fair shake too.

[easttowest]

TMU did quite well in its first few recruits but looking at the Ultravires numbers, their students had a tough time in the most recent one for obvious reasons. 

[Forever Curious]

There is truly no shame. You would think the above conversation would be about the abhorrent racism and white supremacy at display in recent months, including by the many users of this forum as evidenced by the posts in this thread. You would think this thread would be filled with posters condemning Israel/Zionism and apologizing for supporting this genocide. You would think that this post would be filled with apologies for the incredible prejudice and white supremacy at display in this thread. For having facilitated a genocide. But no, we are still talking about TMU students, who were wrongly targeted, and about whether or not those that signed the letter are worthy of having a career or not. I condemn all of you. I can condemn your blatant racism and depravation. You have supported a genocide despite knowing better. You grew up in the post 9/11 world and still allowed yourselves to be brainwashed into being these incredibly Islamophobic and racist warmongerers. Shame on you. I wish you all many many many sleepless nights. 

[jimmy991]

If capitalism taught us anything, it is that profit is always above morals. If recruiters are able to find capable students with morally questionable views like this but can still bring in billables and clients, why would the firm cares what kind of beliefs these students hold?

Edited April 7 by jimmy991

[BlockedQuebecois]

5 minutes ago, jimmy991 said:

If capitalism taught us anything, it is that profit is always above morals. If recruiters are able to find capable students with morally questionable views like this but can still bring in billables and clients, why would the firm cares what kind of beliefs these students hold?

Law students can’t bring in billables and clients for big law firms. They’re just fungible worker bees.

Why would a firm take on unnecessary reputational risk when they could just hire another fungible worker bee? 

[BHC1]

3 hours ago, Forever Curious said:

There is truly no shame. You would think the above conversation would be about the abhorrent racism and white supremacy at display in recent months, including by the many users of this forum as evidenced by the posts in this thread. You would think this thread would be filled with posters condemning Israel/Zionism and apologizing for supporting this genocide. You would think that this post would be filled with apologies for the incredible prejudice and white supremacy at display in this thread. For having facilitated a genocide. But no, we are still talking about TMU students, who were wrongly targeted, and about whether or not those that signed the letter are worthy of having a career or not. I condemn all of you. I can condemn your blatant racism and depravation. You have supported a genocide despite knowing better. You grew up in the post 9/11 world and still allowed yourselves to be brainwashed into being these incredibly Islamophobic and racist warmongerers. Shame on you. I wish you all many many many sleepless nights. 

I know having a conversation with people who disagree with you can be exhausting, but this is not the way to persuade or engage with others.

Here is an example of better advocacy which I think most on here would respect more. Joshua is one of your professors. He clerked at the Supreme Court and is an excellent scholar. Some of his written works have made me rethink how I approach Black accused in my day to day practice as a prosecutor. This was his defence of the letter.  Although I don’t agree with him, this is a well put together rebuttal of some of the points written in this thread. 

At the end of the day, you are going to become one of our peers so you’re going to have to learn how to respond to people who don’t share your worldview if you want any success in our profession.

If you would like to discuss one aspect of your post (genocide/Zionism/white supremacy/Post 9/11 mindset) in good faith - I’m up for it, but if you’re going to approach it the way you have, there’s no point in having a conversation. 

I do not condemn you, wish you sleepless nights, or any ill will. But I do hope you learn how to better advocate for what you believe in, in a way that doesn’t alienate your peers if it is still your intention to become one of us.