How not to get hired on Bay Street

[BHC1]

1 hour ago, SNAILS said:

I suspect the opposite.

Students supporting Israel are not called upon to condemn Israeli violence against Palestine.

The main fault line in North America is between the perceived pro-Israeli bias of university administrators and alumni against the perceived overly pro-Palestinian views of student associations. As a result, you are going to see very few student groups actively supporting Israel - much less in a manner worthy of condemnation.

We also tend to focus on the most inflammatory and controversial statements, which I think fairly were the ones at TMU and York University. For example, law students at the University of Ottawa released a beautiful statement concerning the war in consultation with both Jewish and Muslim student groups. There has been near zero press coverage on this joint statement. Well thought out statements aren’t click bait and get little media attention. 

Nonetheless, to answer you directly, the few student associations seen as being too pro-Israeli have been similarly called upon to condemn Israeli violence against Palestine. For example, here’s an article about the backlash at Guelph where a student association’s message was seen as not sufficiently supportive of Palestine:

https://www.guelphtoday.com/local-news/u-of-g-student-association-statement-on-middle-east-violence-raises-concerns-7714492

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by BHC1

[Dinsdale]

On 10/27/2023 at 4:15 PM, Dinsdale said:

That's not what I said.  I said if firm asks student "did you sign the letter", student says "no way", then it comes to light that student did sign the letter, that is grounds for dismissal.  The lie.

Howard Levitt's column in yesterday's Financial Post:

"One of my partners sent me the following note this week: 'I trust that the first question we will ask any potential new hire or student from TMU is whether or not they signed the letter condoning Hamas.  They should also be advised that if they lie in response to that question it is grounds for dismissal for cause'"

[BlockedQuebecois]

Well if Howard Levitt says it, it must be wrong! 

[Diplock]

Just to embrace the hypothetical, imagine an interview in which they asked if you ever masturbated to furrie porn. Then if you answer no, that answer is held in reserve so that your love of furries can be turned into a fireable offence in the future. Not because of the furries, but because you lied.

Leaving aside whatever you feel about the letter, public positioning on this or any other political controversy, etc. - the construction of that logic alone is absurd. You can't turn something that isnt a fireable offence into one simply by asking about it in an interview. You just...can't.

[myth000]

If the lie is material to the employee's job then it could be a firable offence.  Otherwise no.

[123]

I am slightly curious to know whether furrie porn exists, but I’m afraid of what kind of targeted advertising I’ll get if I search for furrie porn. 

[CleanHands]

14 minutes ago, realpseudonym said:

I am slightly curious to know whether furrie porn exists, but I’m afraid of what kind of targeted advertising I’ll get if I search for furrie porn. 

Rule 34 dude. I'm pretty vanilla but even I'm astonished that this is even something you have to question.

[C_Terror]

On 10/27/2023 at 1:48 AM, Guest Anonymous said:

My full-service firm scheduled a meeting with me to speak about some of the pro-Palestine posts that I had made on my social media. I was essentially told not to post anything that goes against the firm's stance. I wouldn't say that's silencing but it's pretty darn close to it.

Assuming it's about the loss of civilian life etc, that's wrong and creates a chilling effect. I know for a fact in my firm a lot of lawyers of the Muslim faith are deeply uncomfortable about posting anything about this on social media while their Jewish counterparts are posting almost daily on Instagram, simply because of my firm's position and potential backlash. 

[CleanHands]

Criticism of Israel shouldn't be conflated with support for the Hamas attack.

Unfortunately a lot of people are conflating the two to stifle criticism of Israel and a lot of other people are conflating the two to mask and deflect criticism of support for the attack.

I hate having milquetoast, middle-of-the-road opinions on anything but damn there are a lot of bad takes out there.

[Diplock]

32 minutes ago, C_Terror said:

Assuming it's about the loss of civilian life etc, that's wrong and creates a chilling effect. I know for a fact in my firm a lot of lawyers of the Muslim faith are deeply uncomfortable about posting anything about this on social media while their Jewish counterparts are posting almost daily on Instagram, simply because of my firm's position and potential backlash. 

Entirely aside from what's going on in the Middle East, this reminds me of an observation I've been making for years. There is, obviously, a heavy Jewish presence in law. It's been a running joke (or not joke) for ages that people want the good Jewish lawyer - even people who may not particularly like Jews any other day of the week. I mean, I remember an episode of All In The Family that riffs completely off that it goes back so far. My view is that Jews have traditionally fared well in law for a lot of reasons that relate to pushing professional education, natural kinds of reasoning and argumentation that are inherent in the Jewish faith, strong community connections that create opportunities to get established, etc. And all those same factors apply equally to Muslims - save that the Muslim population in North America are a more recent immigrant group, so they are only now moving into law as opposed to generations ago.

The point is, there's a major demographic shift at play here. I believe in a generation from now it would not be unbelievable to find someone who wants the good Muslim lawyer even if they have no use for Muslims most of the time. It's just a new chapter in the same story. But right now, we have a Jewish establishment in law and an up-and-coming Muslim cohort, and this kind of stuff going on in the world can only create all kinds of very difficult interactions.

Anyway. Your random observation for the day.

[epeeist]

Toronto Star article from today:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/legal-community-calls-out-the-backlash-against-tmu-law-students-behind-pro-palestinian-letter/article_f7ef4702-cef3-5ddc-a663-00ca7e4b8d33.html

"Members of the Canadian legal community are, in an open letter, calling reports of retaliation against lawyers and law students who have expressed support for Palestinian liberation a “new McCarthyism” that will have a “chilling effect on freedom of speech.” [link to open letter from story: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vR5d4qAEKPBRh3tVnZEX7LdbCNZxyF-KVIR56tlbJyMF9P5m1WOz9uooNvni7M5W0kFk3iwGAzoeN7E/pub ]

Re the Levitt example, according to this it has been done not just talked about at a firm:

"While the letter didn’t cite specific examples, the Star can confirm that a prominent Bay Street law firm recently asked applicants from TMU law school, in advance of upcoming job interviews, to confirm whether or not they had signed the pro-Palestinian statement, adding that students who did have no place at the firm."

TL;DR: don't read the next part 

__________________________________________________________________________

[MOD NOTE - This has been removed]

_________________________________________________________________________

 Oh, and if there was a history of releasing criminals for hostages - Netanyahu years ago (2011) freed over 1000 Hamas members, including hundreds of very violent offenders including the "architect" of the most recent murders, rapes, tortures, and kidnappings, in exchange for one (1) Israeli soldier. Setting an obvious incentive for kidnappings and I tend to agree with commentary suggesting that for political expediency and one soldier,  Netanyahu at the time sacrificed an unknown number of innocent future victims, including of course the many who have died most recently (both Israelis and those in Gaza who have suffered also).

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-swap-newspro-idUSTRE79B4RF20111012

[Forever Curious]

33 minutes ago, Diplock said:

Entirely aside from what's going on in the Middle East, this reminds me of an observation I've been making for years. There is, obviously, a heavy Jewish presence in law. It's been a running joke (or not joke) for ages that people want the good Jewish lawyer - even people who may not particularly like Jews any other day of the week. I mean, I remember an episode of All In The Family that riffs completely off that it goes back so far. My view is that Jews have traditionally fared well in law for a lot of reasons that relate to pushing professional education, natural kinds of reasoning and argumentation that are inherent in the Jewish faith, strong community connections that create opportunities to get established, etc. And all those same factors apply equally to Muslims - save that the Muslim population in North America are a more recent immigrant group, so they are only now moving into law as opposed to generations ago.

The point is, there's a major demographic shift at play here. I believe in a generation from now it would not be unbelievable to find someone who wants the good Muslim lawyer even if they have no use for Muslims most of the time. It's just a new chapter in the same story. But right now, we have a Jewish establishment in law and an up-and-coming Muslim cohort, and this kind of stuff going on in the world can only create all kinds of very difficult interactions.

Anyway. Your random observation for the day.

I’m sorry but this is such a strange response to that comment. It’s such an abstracted way of reducing the systemic racism the comment is speaking about. This isn’t about jewish or muslim cohorts, though i’m sure a larger muslim population would help in brining muslim issues to light and reducing islamophobia. That is, this issue isn’t really about diversity but rather the corporate/white culture and systems that leads to the profession and people to ignore/not see the difficulties, racism, and issues facing POC and muslims. 

The issue is front and centre. You see how these firms have reacted to the cohort of mostly POC students who signed the TMU letter and so many others. How vultures have been targeting such students at campuses. How our advocacy on these issues is completely ignored and on top of that, is actually manipulated and demonized. So many muslims and POC have been putting themselves in harms way (whether economically, physically, mentally etc) to advocate and show those in the West who still support Israel and zionism to see the devastation of the Israeli occupation, ongoing ethnic cleansing and genocide, etc. 

Its been so disheartening to see how completely racist our society, government, and systems still can be over the last month. It’s been even worse to see that, even today, POC issues and voices can be so widely disregarded and penalized. 

 

 

5 minutes ago, epeeist said:

Toronto Star article from today:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/legal-community-calls-out-the-backlash-against-tmu-law-students-behind-pro-palestinian-letter/article_f7ef4702-cef3-5ddc-a663-00ca7e4b8d33.html

"Members of the Canadian legal community are, in an open letter, calling reports of retaliation against lawyers and law students who have expressed support for Palestinian liberation a “new McCarthyism” that will have a “chilling effect on freedom of speech.” [link to open letter from story: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vR5d4qAEKPBRh3tVnZEX7LdbCNZxyF-KVIR56tlbJyMF9P5m1WOz9uooNvni7M5W0kFk3iwGAzoeN7E/pub ]

Great timing aha.

If anyone of the signatories sees this, thank you so much for speaking out! 

[Jaggers]

1 hour ago, Diplock said:

Entirely aside from what's going on in the Middle East, this reminds me of an observation I've been making for years. There is, obviously, a heavy Jewish presence in law. It's been a running joke (or not joke) for ages that people want the good Jewish lawyer - even people who may not particularly like Jews any other day of the week. I mean, I remember an episode of All In The Family that riffs completely off that it goes back so far.

Donald Trump riffed on it too!

Quote

"Black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day. Those are the kind of people I want counting my money. No one else."

 

5 minutes ago, Forever Curious said:

advocate and show those in the West who still support Israel and zionism to see the devastation of the Israeli occupation, ongoing ethnic cleansing and genocide, etc. 

I'd sign that letter. Not the TMU one.

[GoBigOrGoHome]

I am trying to respond to @epeeist and for some reason I can't quote your comment. I am not going to discourage free speech but I am going to point out that there is time to edit your comment "TL;DR: don't read the next part"

I would be conscious of how you write out your comments on this matter because you are going to be called out quite significantly. This thread is going to turn into a very ugly debate. 

Maybe take it to the off-topic forum. 

I have thoughts on the matter, but I am not going to bring them into this thread. 

 

 

[ZineZ]

18 minutes ago, GoBigOrGoHome said:

I am trying to respond to @epeeist and for some reason I can't quote your comment. I am not going to discourage free speech but I am going to point out that there is time to edit your comment "TL;DR: don't read the next part"

I would be conscious of how you write out your comments on this matter because you are going to be called out quite significantly. This thread is going to turn into a very ugly debate. 

Maybe take it to the off-topic forum. 

I have thoughts on the matter, but I am not going to bring them into this thread. 

 

 

It has been edited out. I was going to write out my reasons for why, but I'll just highlight what GBGH instead:

Quote

 

I would be conscious of how you write out your comments on this matter because you are going to be called out quite significantly. This thread is going to turn into a very ugly debate. 

 

 

[C_Terror]

1 hour ago, epeeist said:

Toronto Star article from today:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/legal-community-calls-out-the-backlash-against-tmu-law-students-behind-pro-palestinian-letter/article_f7ef4702-cef3-5ddc-a663-00ca7e4b8d33.html

"Members of the Canadian legal community are, in an open letter, calling reports of retaliation against lawyers and law students who have expressed support for Palestinian liberation a “new McCarthyism” that will have a “chilling effect on freedom of speech.” [link to open letter from story: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vR5d4qAEKPBRh3tVnZEX7LdbCNZxyF-KVIR56tlbJyMF9P5m1WOz9uooNvni7M5W0kFk3iwGAzoeN7E/pub ]

Re the Levitt example, according to this it has been done not just talked about at a firm:

"While the letter didn’t cite specific examples, the Star can confirm that a prominent Bay Street law firm recently asked applicants from TMU law school, in advance of upcoming job interviews, to confirm whether or not they had signed the pro-Palestinian statement, adding that students who did have no place at the firm."

TL;DR: don't read the next part 

__________________________________________________________________________

[MOD NOTE - This has been removed]

_________________________________________________________________________

 Oh, and if there was a history of releasing criminals for hostages - Netanyahu years ago (2011) freed over 1000 Hamas members, including hundreds of very violent offenders including the "architect" of the most recent murders, rapes, tortures, and kidnappings, in exchange for one (1) Israeli soldier. Setting an obvious incentive for kidnappings and I tend to agree with commentary suggesting that for political expediency and one soldier, Netanyahu at the time sacrificed an unknown number of innocent future victims, including of course the many who have died most recently (both Israelis and those in Gaza who have suffered also).

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-swap-newspro-idUSTRE79B4RF20111012

Read the open letter. Kudos to the brave (or maybe dumb, we don't know yet) associates from Bay Street firms who signed with their firm name attached.

 

*Edit, looks like those associates removed their firm names, which, I think is the correct move. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by C_Terror

[Yogurt Baron]

55 minutes ago, Forever Curious said:

I’m sorry but this is such a strange response to that comment. ... corporate/white culture and systems that leads to the profession and people to ignore/not see the difficulties, racism, and issues facing POC and muslims. 

I think one thing that young leftists miss is that if you're e.g. Howard Levitt, you were not "white" when you were starting out.

[Forever Curious]

24 minutes ago, Yogurt Baron said:

I think one thing that young leftists miss is that if you're e.g. Howard Levitt, you were not "white" when you were starting out.

How is this relevant to my point or the discussion at hand? Do you really think leftists are not aware of the changing history of who is considered white and who is not? I’m sure there’s some older Italians at these firms as well who have witnessed the same changes in the culture. Further, there’s literally a whole reclassification happening right now on this with respect to Turks and other middle eastern caucasians who are now seen as “white”. 

Regardless tho, I don’t see the point of arguing over who is exactly oppressing POC and muslims. I’d rather focus on fighting the oppression.

[Yogurt Baron]

1 minute ago, Forever Curious said:

Do you really think leftists are not aware of the changing history of who is considered white and who is not?

I mean, you clearly aren't.

If you post a big screed about how Jews are the white majority doing the oppressing, and I post a comment saying, "They don't see themselves that way", and you can't wrap your brain around how my comment is responsive to yours, I don't know what to tell you.

[Forever Curious]

1 minute ago, Yogurt Baron said:

I mean, you clearly aren't.

If you post a big screed about how Jews are the white majority doing the oppressing, and I post a comment saying, "They don't see themselves that way", and you can't wrap your brain around how my comment is responsive to yours, I don't know what to tell you.

I mean it’s very telling that you read it that way. Sigh, honestly interacting with you some of you is exhausting and at times soul crushing.

My comment is literally about POC and muslims and their perspectives and issues. My point was that corporate/white culture and systems are oppressive towards POC and muslims and I tried to explain how it is. 

So yes, I am baffled when you just replace the word white with jew in your comprehension of my comment. To be clear, we’re talking about the same white supremacy issues that we have been talking about for decades (you know - from before jews were even considered white). It has nothing to do with the fact some of those white people in positions of power are jewish (or with groups of people at all)

We’re talking about systems and systemic issues. In case it’s not clear, to simplify it - the issue is the current systems which perpetuate white supremacy and racism. Any person of any creed can perpetuate and advance those systems. 

 

 

[Diplock]

1 hour ago, Yogurt Baron said:

I think one thing that young leftists miss is that if you're e.g. Howard Levitt, you were not "white" when you were starting out.

You are going to drive people utterly crazy with that comment. But yes. Exactly.

https://www.amazon.com/Became-White-Folks-About-America/dp/081352590X

 

[Yogurt Baron]

20 minutes ago, Forever Curious said:

I mean it’s very telling that you read it that way. Sigh, honestly interacting with you some of you is exhausting and at times soul crushing.

I didn't mean to...crush your soul.

Look, I've been hard on you a couple of times in this thread and I apologize if I've been too harsh. But what I'm generally hearing from those who share your politics is, "Modern leftist dogma is that Jews are the oppressors now," and all I'm saying is that if you've lived your whole life as an oppressed minority, that switch doesn't just flip because some kid in a grad school seminar decides you're white now. I know people who sincerely feel that the TMU letter is just a continuation of what Hitler did to their grandparents. We don't get anywhere pretending that those feelings aren't sincerely held and aren't actually rooted in, you know, centuries of genocide or whatever.

ETA: actually, to be clear, the key word in my reference to "young leftists" was "young". I'd be amazed if I have fewer than fifteen years on you. This is generational as much as anything.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Yogurt Baron

[myth000]

14 minutes ago, Forever Curious said:

I mean it’s very telling that you read it that way. Sigh, honestly interacting with you some of you is exhausting and at times soul crushing.

My comment is literally about POC and muslims and their perspectives and issues. My point was that corporate/white culture and systems are oppressive towards POC and muslims and I tried to explain how it is. 

So yes, I am baffled when you just replace the word white with jew in your comprehension of my comment. To be clear, we’re talking about the same white supremacy issues that we have been talking about for decades (you know - from before jews were even considered white). It has nothing to do with the fact some of those white people in positions of power are jewish (or with groups of people at all)

We’re talking about systems and systemic issues. In case it’s not clear, to simplify it - the issue is the current systems which perpetuate white supremacy and racism. Any person of any creed can perpetuate and advance those systems. 

I recognize that systemic racism and bullying are significant issues in this country. However, I am uncomfortable with conflating these problems with the broader international issues of Islamic jihad. It's important to note that the jihadi struggle is not unique to Palestine/Israel, it is also present in areas with non-Muslim groups that are "POC" in Canadian terminology, such as the Philippines, South Asia, and Nigeria. We must address both racism and religious fundamentalism with a clear understanding that they are distinct challenges requiring separate solutions.

[BlockedQuebecois]

Not to derail the conversation, but I’m fairly certain it’s literally impossible to have a “jihadi struggle” without Muslim people, given jihad is definitionally linked to Islam. 

Also, more than 50% of Nigeria’s population is Muslim and nearly a third of South Asia’s population is Muslim, so those are, frankly, bizarre examples to choose for countries with “non-Muslim groups”. Islam is the second most popular religion in the Philippines, as well, although it’s a very distant second to Roman Catholicism. 

[myth000]

1 minute ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Not to derail the conversation, but I’m fairly certain it’s literally impossible to have a “jihadi struggle” without Muslim people, given jihad is definitionally linked to Islam. 

Also, more than 50% of Nigeria’s population is Muslim and nearly a third of South Asia’s population is Muslim, so those are, frankly, bizarre examples to choose for countries with “non-Muslim groups”. Islam is the second most popular religion in the Philippines, as well, although it’s a very distant second to Roman Catholicism. 

There are monthly Sunni jihadi attacks on Shias and other deemed heretical sects.  Being Muslim doesn't mean you are saved from jihadi violence. 

I'm not interested in you.  I've made my point.  Go away.