Big Law Salary Increase

[GGrievous]

11 hours ago, Lawstudents20202020 said:

Seeing threads like this sometimes make me question if I made the right call not trying for big law. 

These threads always do the opposite for me any time a nutty thought pops up to at least explore big law. 

[infoinfoinfo]

2 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Is 10% for hitting target but not exceeding it significantly below market? 

I would have thought that this is about market, at least here in QC. Pretty surprised to see Toronto folks thinking this is below. I thought here you need to do significantly more than target to get 20%/25%, but I may be wrong. 

13 hours ago, Judgelight said:

Reading this thread as an outsider is interesting, kind of rich how out of touch some people in here are. 5 or 10 is not a life changing amount, but its consequential. 

Agreed, but definitely is a matter of proportions, too. 5k at a certain level isn't really a means of improving your quality of life but mostly keeping score and know your worth versus your colleagues or the street. And agree with the other person who mentioned it really isn't worth lateraling over. TBH I could lateral (as most of my colleagues when the market is hot) for probably more than 25k base salary increase but still wouldn't do it out of loyalty for my mentors, internal positioning, politics, etc.

Edited February 18, 2022 by infoinfoinfo

[Jaggers]

Aren't the big bonuses supposed to be to reflect that people are working abnormally hard?  If you're meeting target, you're not working abnormally hard.

[infoinfoinfo]

1 minute ago, Jaggers said:

Aren't the big bonuses supposed to be to reflect that people are working abnormally hard?  If you're meeting target, you're not working abnormally hard.

I agree.

If you pull 10% for doing like 1800 hrs, considering the high base salary of big law, all things considered you live a pretty good life. Of course, billables are not even throughout the year and considering non-billable work, some cycles still involve nights and weekends, but it also means you get to chill sometimes. 

[Panda]

The question of bonuses at big firms in Toronto is highly firm-specific and variable. Some firms offer a bonus beginning at 1800 hours and move up from there. There are other firms that give a 20-30% bonus for hitting that 1800 target. Again, it’s highly firm dependent.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Panda

[Chrysander]

If you don’t get a significant bonus for hitting the target then financially it’s a waste of your time. Hitting target means you’re working much longer hours on average than most people including other professions, and for a base salary that is actually pretty low. Don’t kid yourselves that Bay Street is a good deal for anyone but the seven figure equity partners.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Chrysander

[Jaggers]

LOL. Where is my ROFL emoji?

People making triple the average income, straight out of school, have a bad deal. Don't kid youselves!

[Mountebank]

13 minutes ago, Jaggers said:

LOL. Where is my ROFL emoji?

People making triple the average income, straight out of school, have a bad deal. Don't kid youselves!

As if. That only puts them in the top 5% of income earners in Canada. 0.1% or bust!

[QueensGrad]

20 minutes ago, Mountebank said:

As if. That only puts them in the top 5% of income earners in Canada. 0.1% or bust!

35 minutes ago, Jaggers said:

LOL. Where is my ROFL emoji?

People making triple the average income, straight out of school, have a bad deal. Don't kid youselves!

The relevant comparator here isn't the average earner or rest of Canada. It is what you (not Joe Schmuck) could be earning had you taken another path (e.g. finance, medicine, etc). If law is as good as you were ever going to get, then in that case there is no basis to complain. 

[infoinfoinfo]

2 hours ago, Chrysander said:

If you don’t get a significant bonus for hitting the target then financially it’s a waste of your time. Hitting target means you’re working much longer hours on average than most people including other professions, and for a base salary that is actually pretty low. Don’t kid yourselves that Bay Street is a good deal for anyone but the seven figure equity partners.

Lol. If you're only hitting target, you're working much longer hours on average, for a base salary that is,  like Jaggers mentioned, 3x the average income straight out of school (and raising at 10%-15% a year as opposed to a mere 2% ish). 

IMO, it's within the bonus hours that you start wasting your time. Even if your firm has a nice bonus policy, it's substantially lower than other professions (like banking), and that's where the real rip-off starts. By then your firm has covered all your fixed fees (office, assistant, insurance, etc.) and is banking big money on your time while you only get a very small fraction of that. Also, the bonus hours are the hardest since they are all the nightime/weekend hours. PLUS, here in Quebec for example, you give back 51 cents on the dollars on the bonus (not true for the first tranches of your base salary).

Hitting target and making a somewhat acceptable bonus really is the best balance. 

1 hour ago, QueensGrad said:

The relevant comparator here isn't the average earner or rest of Canada. It is what you (not Joe Schmuck) could be earning had you taken another path (e.g. finance, medicine, etc). If law is as good as you were ever going to get, then in that case there is no basis to complain. 

Granted the paycheck is larger if you're also on top in finance (ie IBD), but the hours are even longer. Those positions are also hard to land given there are a ton of finance graduates. Most other finance positions don't give that good of a paycheck and often compensation is more variable on market conditions.

Re: Medicine, you should also factor in how long it is to finish studying. You'll be banking 200k in base salary in big law by the time you finish specializing in medicine, and will have been making 100k+ for the prior years and be able to invest that money in registered account if you're smart with your finances. And at that moment, you're nearing partner level where you will soon be making as much, if not more, than a surgeon. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by infoinfoinfo

[Mountebank]

2 hours ago, QueensGrad said:

The relevant comparator here isn't the average earner or rest of Canada. It is what you (not Joe Schmuck) could be earning had you taken another path (e.g. finance, medicine, etc). If law is as good as you were ever going to get, then in that case there is no basis to complain. 

If you truly have superior options available to you, then you're at liberty to pursue them but have chosen not to, in which case you still have no basis to complain about being in the top 5% at age 27.

[Jaggers]

When I was at the firm, I never once hit my target or got a bonus. It never seemed like a good tradeoff.

My target was 1750, but no one got a bonus just for hitting the target. And there was no way I was going to put in another 100 hours for a shot at getting a 10% bonus.

[Rashabon]

The real problem/sad irony with bonuses is that they are not worth it at the junior stages when you're more willing to put in the time and more worth it at the senior stages when you don't want to put in the time.

[QueensGrad]

2 hours ago, Mountebank said:

If you truly have superior options available to you, then you're at liberty to pursue them but have chosen not to, in which case you still have no basis to complain about being in the top 5% at age 27.

This has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not law is a "bad deal" in terms of income compared to other career routes. Again: no one is saying it is one compared to whatever the average Canadian income is. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

If this has "absolutely nothing whatsoever" to do with other career routes available to the specific individual, and also nothing to do with the average Canadian's career, what exactly does this have to do with? 

[QueensGrad]

2 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

If this has "absolutely nothing whatsoever" to do with other career routes available to the specific individual, and also nothing to do with the average Canadian's career, what exactly does this have to do with? 

I am as confused as you are regarding what his/her point was. 

[BlockedQuebecois]

For clarity, Mountebank was perfectly clear: either law is the best you could do—and therefore you have no reason to complain—or law is not the best you can do and you've decided not to do whatever you think is better—in which case, you again have no reason to complain. 

You’re the one whose point I don’t understand. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by BlockedQuebecois

[QueensGrad]

11 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

For clarity, Mountebank was perfectly clear: either law is the best you could do—and therefore you have no reason to complain—or law is not the best you can do and you've decided not to do whatever you think is better—in which case, you again have no reason to complain. 

You’re the one whose point I don’t understand. 

I think you missed the part where he/she mentioned being in the top 5% in Canada.  I thought my point was pretty obvious — the relevant comparator isn’t the rest of Canada. Talking about individual choice (and not to mention the idea that once you’ve taken on $100K in debt you can just give up law and go into med school or finance is laughable ) and who has a right to complain has nothing to do with whether we should be comparing law to the rest of Canada, or only to other high end career paths. I guess saying exactly that only a few posts ago wasn’t clear enough for you?

[BlockedQuebecois]

2 minutes ago, QueensGrad said:

I think you missed the part where he/she mentioned being in the top 5% in Canada.  I thought my point was pretty obvious — the relevant comparator isn’t the rest of Canada. Talking about individual choice (and not to mention the idea that once you’ve taken on $100K in debt you can just give up law and go into med school or finance is laughable ) and who has a right to complain has nothing to do with whether we should be comparing law to the rest of Canada, or only to other high end career paths. I guess saying exactly that only a few posts ago wasn’t clear enough for you?

I know you think you’re being clever here, but everybody except you understands what was being said in those posts. 

[CanadaWater]

On 2/15/2022 at 1:19 PM, braindrain said:

Hearing rumors of some Toronto Big Law firms paying increased bonuses this year including 2 sisters who have announced bonuses in the 40-50% range. Anyone else hear anything?

In an effort to bring this thread back on track, are there any further updates re: bonuses?  

[Rashabon]

I mean they all have to be paid out by the end of this week so I expect by now anyone who was expecting to hear anything already has.

[CanadaWater]

39 minutes ago, Rashabon said:

I mean they all have to be paid out by the end of this week so I expect by now anyone who was expecting to hear anything already has.

Some shops leave it to the bitter end.  

[Rashabon]

Seems incredibly dysfunctional if so. Delaying in a manner that prevents you from planning for March 1 costs you a lot more than $5-10K in real dollars. I'd be pissed if my firm was unable or unwilling to meet that timing.

[Ivermectin4President]

I had a good year at 2000 billable hours and 400 non billables, and my bonus was fixed at about 22.5% of base - this is exclusive of the COVID 10%/10%. 

[QueensGrad]

On 2/19/2022 at 8:55 PM, BlockedQuebecois said:

I know you think you’re being clever here, but everybody except you understands what was being said in those posts. 

My confusion was over how their subsequent post had anything to do with my point about the relevant comparator group bud. 

Your confusion is completely inexplicable.