TRU IS RESCINDING OFFERS

[Diplock]

You know, I've been following this subject with some interest, and I really do sympathize with anyone who got screwed here. I don't want anything I say next to indicate otherwise. You got screwed, it sucks, you should get whatever kind of compensation or remedy you can out of the situation, because of course you should. Not sure what that will amount to, but get what you can.

That said, these overblown threats to go to the media, to your local Members of Parliament, etc. as though everyone is going to agree this massive injustice is obviously the biggest thing happening right now are just ridiculous. And I say that to be helpful (hopefully) and not to be snide. You need to know where you stand in order to calibrate your expectations properly. You got screwed, and it sucks. But bad things happen in the world all the time, and this isn't remotely the most interesting or unjust thing that happened even in the last few hours. If it's a news story at all, it's mostly about how our disrupted economy has changed enrollment so much that schools can't even predict it properly anymore - it's not about the terrible way that applicants to TRU have been abused. Maybe it should be about the damage to those who had offers rescinded. But that's not what's most interesting in the mind of the public - which determines what gets on the news.

Get whatever you can and whatever there is to get. I have no idea what that is - I just keep repeating that because I don't want you to think I'm advising anyone to roll over. I'm just saying, someone who is demanding some kind of proper response from the school and who sounds realistic while they are doing so is a greater concern than someone so privileged and clueless they really do think the way they got screwed over by their law school is national news.

Good luck, however it shakes out.

[Thrive92]

8 hours ago, HarryCrane said:

As of right now it looks like it’s 42 students who have been put on a special waitlist. If they don’t get off it this year they have admission next year. 

Just realized that there is a good to fair chance that many of these poor applicants would likely not be admitted this cycle and be pushed over to the next cycle...which means that next cycle would perhaps be even more competitive.

Ohhhh TRU

[CleanHands]

Just now, Thrive92 said:

Just realized that there is a good to fair chance that many of these poor applicants would likely not be admitted this cycle and be pushed over to the next cycle...which means that next cycle would perhaps be even more competitive.

That's really your concern here?

[Thrive92]

Just now, CleanHands said:

That's really your concern here?

Maybe I'm trying to point out the potentially other unintended consequences of this fuckery.

[CleanHands]

Just now, Thrive92 said:

Maybe I'm trying to point out the potentially other unintended consequences of this fuckery.

I mean, it's a pretty dickish take to complain about having to compete next cycle with those who got their offers rescinded.

[Thrive92]

Just now, CleanHands said:

I mean, it's a pretty dickish take to complain about having to compete next cycle with those who got their offers rescinded.

The fact that you are implying that  I am pitting these 42 applicants who should have been starting their law school this September with the upcoming applicants of the next cycle seems a bit overreaching when I was trying to point my finger squarely at TRU law admissions about the future consequences of this mistake.

 

[GGrievous]

46 minutes ago, Diplock said:

. But bad things happen in the world all the time, and this isn't remotely the most interesting or unjust thing that happened even in the last few hours. If it's a news story at all, it's mostly about how our disrupted economy has changed enrollment so much that schools can't even predict it properly anymore - it's not about the terrible way that applicants to TRU have been abused.

I disagree somewhat. It's definitely not even close to the biggest injustice, especially on the topic of Kamloops and schools, but I do think it's newsworthy. Massive injustice has never been the necessary baseline for making the news, especially local outlets. I've never heard of this happening before other than the Ottawa incident that was properly rectified. I think it's important that future applicants of any program knows that this kind of thing is at least a possibility to look out for. I also think there definitely needs to be accountability. I don't know if going to the media is the best move, but I think something needs to happen here, this is just awful. I feel so bad for all the students affected. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Barry

[HarryCrane]

8 hours ago, Toad said:

That's fucked up.

By this time in June in 2018 when I was preparing to attend U of A I had already moved provinces, quit my job, signed a new lease, used some of my LOC to get basic furniture, and was around a month away from having my fiance move here with me.

If the U of A did this to me I would have been in a pretty terrible situation. I'm not even sure how Scotiabank would handle the situation with my LOC.

It's strange that they aren't trying to accommodate as many people as possible. They are already probably set up for online classes because of COVID. They could theoretically use the extra $800,000 in tuition they are bringing in from the over enrolment to have a one year class size increase using a combination of in person and online teaching.

Talking to some people, apparently it is a physical space issue, like the school cannot accommodate more than 120 students, which is why they need to get to that number. 

My question is how did you manage to over enrol 42 students. 

[CleanHands]

12 minutes ago, Barry said:

I disagree somewhat. It's definitely not even close to the biggest injustice, especially on the topic of Kamloops and schools, but I do think it's newsworthy. Massive injustice has never been the necessary baseline for making the news, especially local outlets. I've never heard of this happening before other than the Ottawa incident that was properly rectified. I think it's important that future applicants of any program knows that this kind of thing is at least a possibility to look out for. I also think there definitely needs to be accountability. I don't know if going to the media is the best move, but I think something needs to happen here, this is just awful. I feel so bad for all the students affected. 

Not to put words in @Diplock's mouth but what I think he was getting at is that this is not going to be something that stirs widespread public outrage and forces the school to capitulate. Which is a take I fully agree with. And I think people who just had the rug pulled out from under them are justifiably infuriated and probably not in the best position to rationally evaluate and understand this right now.

[GGrievous]

8 minutes ago, CleanHands said:

Not to put words in @Diplock's mouth but what I think he was getting at is that this is not going to be something that stirs widespread public outrage and forces the school to capitulate. Which is a take I fully agree with. And I think people who just had the rug pulled out from under them are justifiably infuriated and probably not in the best position to rationally evaluate and understand this right now.

That I agree with. The phrase sleep on it is for sure relevant here. Additionally, the school might not have a plan at the moment but you don't know what they might offer in the coming weeks/months. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Barry

[Hegdis]

I suspect TRU is going to feel the repercussions of this for years to come. How confident can future applicants really be that their offer is a real one?

How TRU handles this is going to be key. If I were their admin I would be doing some serious damage control right now. 

[ZineZ]

9 hours ago, Toad said:

That's fucked up.

By this time in June in 2018 when I was preparing to attend U of A I had already moved provinces, quit my job, signed a new lease, used some of my LOC to get basic furniture, and was around a month away from having my fiance move here with me.

If the U of A did this to me I would have been in a pretty terrible situation. I'm not even sure how Scotiabank would handle the situation with my LOC.

It's strange that they aren't trying to accommodate as many people as possible. They are already probably set up for online classes because of COVID. They could theoretically use the extra $800,000 in tuition they are bringing in from the over enrolment to have a one year class size increase using a combination of in person and online teaching.

I'm shocked by this this entire situation.

Like you - I had quit my job, told my friends and colleagues of my acceptance and made huge changes to my life in preparation for law school. There's also a chance that some of these people turned down other offers to accept one from TRU.

I agree with @Hegdis - this is going to make TRU take a massive reputational hit in the future. They're going to make some students go through hell over the next bit. 

[ZineZ]

26 minutes ago, ZineZ said:

I'm shocked by this this entire situation.

Like you - I had quit by job, told my friends and colleagues of my acceptance and made huge changes to my life in preparation for law school. There's also a chance that some of these people turned down other offers to accept one from TRU.

I agree with @Hegdis - this is going to make TRU take a massive reputational hit in the future. They're going to make some students go through hell over the next bit. 

The more I think about this situation, the worse it seems to become. The law school also did this to a cohort of applicants who had to go through the process of applying for law school in the middle of a pandemic. 

[Diplock]

1 hour ago, CleanHands said:

Not to put words in @Diplock's mouth but what I think he was getting at is that this is not going to be something that stirs widespread public outrage and forces the school to capitulate. Which is a take I fully agree with. And I think people who just had the rug pulled out from under them are justifiably infuriated and probably not in the best position to rationally evaluate and understand this right now.

Yeah. that's better. In fact, the way CleanHands has connected the expectation of outrage and using that to leverage something out of the school makes the point more explicit. Because that's the goal right - to get something. When 215 children are dug out of the ground out behind a residential school that somehow buried them all with no one knowing about it - that's the kind of thing that generates public outrage. And you can ride that outrage towards some outcome or remedy. Not to say the outcome or remedy will ever be sufficient, satisfactory, or will represent "justice" in some absolute way. But it's enough outrage to generate action in reply. That's my only point.

Whatever news this may generate, or not, public interest and attention to this will simply not be enough to make TRU give a damn. They'll regard it as something that's unfortunate and may damage their reputation somewhat in legal communities, but that alone won't make them care about it. So something along the lines of actual rational legal action (assuming there's any to be taken - talk with a proper lawyer who does civil) probably makes more sense than writing your local newspaper.

Also, I have no idea what constraints TRU may be up against. But it may be the parameters of their law school, in some way, simply caps their class size. I don't know how things work there. But I imagine there's lots of schools who'd love to double their enrollment by "accidentally" admitting twice as many students as they're supposed to. My gut instinct says there's probably some control mechanism to prevent that.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Diplock

[historicaladvantage]

2 hours ago, Diplock said:

You know, I've been following this subject with some interest, and I really do sympathize with anyone who got screwed here. I don't want anything I say next to indicate otherwise. You got screwed, it sucks, you should get whatever kind of compensation or remedy you can out of the situation, because of course you should. Not sure what that will amount to, but get what you can.

That said, these overblown threats to go to the media, to your local Members of Parliament, etc. as though everyone is going to agree this massive injustice is obviously the biggest thing happening right now are just ridiculous. And I say that to be helpful (hopefully) and not to be snide. You need to know where you stand in order to calibrate your expectations properly. You got screwed, and it sucks. But bad things happen in the world all the time, and this isn't remotely the most interesting or unjust thing that happened even in the last few hours. If it's a news story at all, it's mostly about how our disrupted economy has changed enrollment so much that schools can't even predict it properly anymore - it's not about the terrible way that applicants to TRU have been abused. Maybe it should be about the damage to those who had offers rescinded. But that's not what's most interesting in the mind of the public - which determines what gets on the news.

Get whatever you can and whatever there is to get. I have no idea what that is - I just keep repeating that because I don't want you to think I'm advising anyone to roll over. I'm just saying, someone who is demanding some kind of proper response from the school and who sounds realistic while they are doing so is a greater concern than someone so privileged and clueless they really do think the way they got screwed over by their law school is national news.

Good luck, however it shakes out.

I agree, perspective is key--not that huge a deal compared to other issues going on especially right now. But, it's always helpful in a situation like this in particular to threaten to go to the media. CP24 would probably pick this up at least! 😉 Do not underestimate the fact that law school is a business; and while normally, all press is good press in the business world, the same cannot be said for law schools. 

The only reasonable remedy in this situation, in my opinion, is to offer unconditional admission to these students for next cycle as well as reasonable financial compensation for the year lost of their lives. Anything short of those two things should properly involve a lawyer + potential media threats. TRU may take the position that this is probably going to get out anyway, but it would probably be worth trying in a mediation context to gauge their reaction. 

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by historicaladvantage

[123]

2 hours ago, Barry said:

I also think there definitely needs to be accountability. I don't know if going to the media is the best move, but I think something needs to happen here, this is just awful. I feel so bad for all the students affected. 

1 hour ago, Barry said:

The phrase sleep on it is for sure relevant here.

I feel bad too. Emotionally, it’s a huge letdown for any of those students. Not to mention a massive inconvenience, if they’ve already started making plans  

That said, I do encourage any of the rescinded applicants to follow your second post, and take a bit of time before proceeding towards concrete action. Aside from whether public sentiment will be with you, it can still be difficult to obtain a remedy, even if you’re morally right.

 I don’t do civil litigation and none of this should be construed as legal advice. But I’ve had clients who have been fucked by institutions. Some tried to get recourse. Others moved on. Some got something, others did not.

But at least in my experience, engaging a major institution (including universities) in conflict is time-consuming, emotionally draining work. These are quasi-bureaucratic, slow-moving institutions with the resources to fight. There can be a real personal cost to going up against these actors. I’ve had even successful litigants come away bitter and disillusioned from fighting a case, and I sometimes wonder how often the fight is worth it. 

Anyway, I’m also not encouraging anyone to roll over. This sucks, and if you can get something for it, great. But I wanted to note that fighting any bigger player can be hard, and that it can involve an emotional investment that is not insignificant. 

Anyway, all the best to anyone in this situation. You have my sympathies, regardless of what you do. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by realpseudonym

[pickme101]

4 hours ago, Moomee said:

Yep can confirm. Got my call last night and my friend the other day (but she missed the call and was unaware of her 'new' status).

I told the caller, Stefani, absolutely not. I would not accept them rescinding a binding agreement. They made an offer. I accepted. Consideration was exchanged. For those in the law field, that's called a binding contract. Furthermore there is nothing in the offer that indicates they may withdraw their offer at whim. Bizarre that I will  have to give a course on contracts 101 to the Dean of the Law School when we chat. I will be notifying the Kamloops media - Kamloops needs more news wouldn't you think...

Yes, a class action lawsuit would be a lovely start to 1L.

Once upon a time a similar event happened at UOttawa - system error of sorts that doubled their offers. They, as a standup establishment, honoured all of the offers and have kept double enrolment since (I may be off on the numbers but you get the drift that they did the right thing).

TRU is a disgrace. Shameful. Life disrupting etc. They even had an already used built-in solve: online courses.

GOOD ON YOU!! did she have anything to say to that?? I'm sorry you got the call by the way, incredibly unfair 😞

[Hegdis]

I think the real risk to TRU here is its reputation. And while it might not be national news, it's certainly newsworthy locally. TRU is a pretty big presence in Kamloops and the surrounding area. The law school brings in a considerable sum of money, and as a newer institution they have more to lose in that regard than, say, UBC or McGill.

So I think that writing to the local politician or contacting CBC is worthwhile. Temper your expectations, obviously: it may catch some one's interest, it may not. But the only pressure these poor students really have to exert here concerns TRU's reputation, and media and local politicians are a part of that.

If you want to attract the best and brightest students possible to build your law school into a nationally recognized force, you need those students to apply in the first place. And I repeat - depending on how this is handled, I think future applicants may very well hesitate to trust TRU with their future.

[123]

17 minutes ago, pickme101 said:

GOOD ON YOU!! did she have anything to say to that??

Given that recipients of these calls have every reason to be outraged with TRU, this might not be the place and time for my interjection. But in any case, I'm going to assume that Stefani or whoever was tasked with making these calls wasn't responsible in whole or in part for the admissions decisions. She probably doesn't also have the power to take formal legal positions on the phone. There's nothing wrong with stating your position on that initial call, but also don't shoot the messenger. And if you do, I wouldn't expect a satisfying response from the messenger. I'd guess that she's been delegated an unpalatable task, and is probably taking a huge pile of shit for something that she wasn't ultimately responsible for. 

[HarryCrane]

TRU just sent an email out and it seems like it was an admin error that led to the students being offered admission. 

[Abc321]

I’m one of the students who was bumped from this year. I’m a mature student with a whole 4 person, 2 dog, 2 cat household to move from Alberta. I’ll spare you all the details, but I have FIVE MILLION things to figure out for moving provinces, including the sale of our house (which, thankfully we didn’t do in May as originally planned).

Not to say that my situation is worse than others who were also bumped, but I have considerable complications to do with an extra year wait and the suddenness of this decision. I’m definitely part of the 42 who are REALLY negatively impacted by this.

and with that being said.. I don’t see how going to the media or demanding some type of compensation will go anywhere. The ONLY thing that some people should perhaps look into, is situations where people are losing money due to breaking a lease or similar, and can show that as a result of TRU’s F-Up they lost money. That is my hunch, based on the conversation I had with Stefani—when I mentioned that I was in the middle of moving my entire household it sounded like she was perhaps wanting to know if I had lost any money for deposits etc. This is a HUNCH, so don’t trust me on it without checking for yourself. I would total up the actual numbers and tell TRU what they cost you, and see if that goes anywhere.

Other than that... I don’t think there’s much that can be done. I asked specifically if TRU was looking into other ways to accommodate the extra 42 students and this was a definite no. There was literally no physical space, according to Stefani (believe it or not, but this is what she told me). Remote classes were also not an option. Who knows if this changes, all I know is what I was told yesterday. 
 

 

[Abc321]

5 minutes ago, realpseudonym said:

Given that recipients of these calls have every reason to be outraged with TRU, this might not be the place and time for my interjection. But in any case, I'm going to assume that Stefani or whoever was tasked with making these calls wasn't responsible in whole or in part for the admissions decisions. She probably doesn't also have the power to take formal legal positions on the phone. There's nothing wrong with stating your position on that initial call, but also don't shoot the messenger. And if you do, I wouldn't expect a satisfying response from the messenger. I'd guess that she's been delegated an unpalatable task, and is probably taking a huge pile of shit for something that she wasn't ultimately responsible for. 

100% 

Poor Stefani sounded devastated. I don’t blame her at all and it’s a shit task she’s been given.

[Abc321]

5 minutes ago, HarryCrane said:

TRU just sent an email out and it seems like it was an admin error that led to the students being offered admission. 

It’s because more people confirmed their acceptance than TRU was anticipating. They usually have more who decline or move on to other schools even after accepting. 

Not that we shouldn’t have been offered admission at all.

It’s a minor difference, but it matters to me right now when I’m feeling like a big bag of shit. 🤣

[Skier41]

It goes without saying that this situation is awful for the affected students and should not have happened at all. However, for those saying the class size should just be increased, would that not also be harmful to students (i.e. articling positions would almost certainly not increase)? I never followed the Ottawa situation but I assume securing articles was more difficult following their increase in the student population. I'm not saying these students don't deserve a seat at TRU this year but I feel it's a lose-lose situation - either a wait year or admit more students and run the risk of not securing articles. Or am I looking at this the wrong way? 

[Meryl]

4 hours ago, Hastings said:

This is absolutely insane to me. I have lost all respect I had for this school. I was also called but missed the call, woke up to a call from Kamloops and wondered why I would be getting a call from that area. Thankfully I have JUST accepted an offer from another school but my TRU offer was rescinded as well. Accepted April 1st. Paid my deposit mid-April. 
Does anyone know if there are ways we can write a letter or reach out to the school somehow? We should not be allowing this to happen to ourselves or our fellow applicants. 

I'm curious, will you at least be getting your deposit back? I can't believe this even happened in the first place...it's shocking.